EC suspected, need help with urine scald!

[bunnymommy76]

My bunny Pidge just turned 9 yrs old and has had problems with not using the litter box all the time. Things have slowly gotten worse and he hasn't used the litter box at all in about 2 months. I am concerned now because his left rear leg seems to beweak and he stumples and falls over almost every day. I am suspecting that he has EC. My big concern though is the urine scald, both of his inner legs are raw with splotchey sores on them, he is even starting to loose the fur on the side of his feet. Does anyone have any suggestions to help my boy, I feel so bad for him. The vet said to put baby socks on him to protect his feet a little, but he kicks them right off. I am cleaning his pen and giving him a butt bath almost every dayto keep him from sittingin the urine. Any suggestions would be appreciated, I am going to try and get him into the vet Thurs. to see if there is anything elseI can do!

 

[gentle giants]

Has he lost control and is just peeing everywhere, or just not in his usual places? Could you maby put some sort of absorbent matting down, like Vet Bed? Say, keep two-three pieces on hand, and trade them out and wash them everday. At 9 years old, I think personally I would be more inclined to think that it was age related rather than EC.

 

[bunnymommy76]

no, he's peeing everywhere, we do have those baby mats down that we wash all the time. Im so confused because that's what I originally thought was that he is nine years old, maybe its just arthritis and its hard for him to get in the litter box. So, i cut his litter box down, but it didnt seem to help. something needs to be done about the urine scald though, someone suggested desitin, maybe I will try that!

 

[gentle giants]

Did the vet do a test on his urine to make sure he didn't have any infection? How about an x-ray of the the bum leg?

 

[Maureen Las]

I went through this with Gabriel who went into renal failure. I was advised to attempt to give cornstarch baths ( i'll attach a link for this) so as not to wet him everyday but after several days of cornstarch baths he got pretty funky and I ended up giving butt baths. So i would do the cornstrch some of the time and the butt bathes when he really got funky. I used the plain cornstarch that you buy in a grocery store to thicken gravy etc...not anything with talc ior perfume in it.

make sure that you use a small animal shampoo ( Maybe your vet could prescribe a shampoo) and not human soap as rabbit skin is far more delicate than human even human infant.


This is what i did and then I'll attach links ...

I would bathe his butt each morning , very gently and then use a hair dryer on low to dry him... he put up with this fairly well as he was weak. then I would apply neosporin to the affected area (in his case it ws the genitals which were really really red and inflamed. After iIapplied the neosporin..I would apply diaper rash ointment . I bought the generic kind from walgreens which has zinc oxide.

He was not grooming himself so I didn't worry about him ingesting it.

I did this every morning for weeks and eventually I cleared up the urine scald , however his kidney failure didn't clear up and he is in heaven now.

he did not have EC but had been dehydrated and starved prior to me rescuing him.

This is what I did but I know that there are absorbent pads that you could keep your bun on and also probably other methods to help him that i didn't use

I tried to do the most cost effective treatment so just washed a ton of towels each day.
I know from experience how hard this is to deal with . my heart goes out to you ....

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/buttbath.html

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/urinary.html

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12158&forum_id=10

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=14471&forum_id=10

I also hope that randy post ..
he has a lot of expertise with EC

Let us know how things go..:hug:

 

[bunnymommy76]

yep, he's had many urine test. No x-ray though, last time we were there the doctor stretched his legs every which way and said that it didnt seem like anything was fractured orhe had arthritis,thats why I suspected the EC. Maybe we should do a x-ray just to confirm.

 

[Maureen Las]

Bo Bunny had problems with sores on Bo's pads so this thread may be helpful

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=41139&forum_id=16

 

[Maureen Las]

bunnymommy76 wrote:

yep, he's had many urine test. No x-ray though, last time we were there the doctor stretched his legs every which way and said that it didnt seem like anything was fractured orhe had arthritis,thats why I suspected the EC. Maybe we should do a x-ray just to confirm.

I had another bun (RIP) Babette. who was elderly. she would stumble and it sort of looked like EC (Right leg was slow) but turned out to be probablyspinal arthritis and not EC.

Your bun's symtoms do sound more like EC because of the urine problems and leg problem
There are treatments for EC ..the most common one being fenbendazole . This treatment is not the best but really all that is available right now . Randy (infirmary mod, wild life rehabber) and his team at Sabrina's rabbit rescue have been experimenting with a drug called Ponazaril which is actually a drug for horses. they have had some good results but I don't think this drug is commonly being used on rabbits/

 

[bunnymommy76]

Hmm, yeah, I think I'm going to contact Randy, he has helped me with with other things in the past. He really knows his stuff! I think for now I'm going to try putting some neosporin on and loosely wrapping his feet until we can get back to the vet.

 

[ra7751]

Well....you know I have to post on this one. I would suggest isolating the root cause of this concern. As mentioned, it could just be age and maybe arthritis but I must admit that the presentations are consistant with EC. I would suggest getting back to the vet and have a full blood chemistry with EC titer specified. While this titer isn't fool proof, we use it as a piece of the puzzle. I would also take a look at a urine sample under a scope.

Regardless, I would start him on treatment for EC immediately just in case. The earlier you attack, the more likely of getting a good resolution. Most vets still treat with one of the "bendazoles" but in the cases I have treated, I have not seen much positive from that drug. The problem is getting the drug thru the blood/brain barrier. The drug I have been using recently is Ponazuril....sold under the name of Marquis. It is used to treat Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM) in horses....it's closely related to EC. I generally use an NSAID for a few days to hopefully reduce any inflammation in the brain (causing the neuro markers) and to open the passages in the kidneys (urinary incontenance due to spores). Supplemental hydration via sub-q or IV is critical....lots of fluids to support the kidneys and liver. Any sign of dehydration when using NSAIDs can cause additional problems.

As far as the urine scald...if it's severe, ask your vet to add a narcotic aspect in treatment. Buprenex is an excellent choice but it is rather expensive and it's a controlled drug. Many vets are leery about sending that drug outside the clinic. An acceptable alternative is Tramadol. Few vets are aware of it's use in rabbits. If your vet is willing to use it and not familiar with compounding this drug into a suspension....I can provide that information to your vet or pharmacist. Compounding is not rocket science as long as you understand what makes your concentrations, mean dosing and actual dosing. Find an oatmeal based shampoo. A veterinary supply company makes the best I have ever seen. The company is Virbec and the shampoo is called Epi-Soothe. But you most likely can find an oatmeal based shampoo at many high end pet groomingsalons and even some human salons. An acceptable subsitute is called Hy Lyte and can be found at most pet grooming salons and I think I have seen it in some major pet stores. As far as a topical....I use an ointment called Tri-Top. If I remember correctly, it has a steroid. The is a powder called Neo-Predef that also contains a steroids....and it comes in a "point and shoot" container. The idea behind the steroid is to suppress the immune response to the urinescald. With a powder you don't need to add more irritation by having to make direct contact with the affected skin....and it also reduces the risk of getting an infection from you. I would suggest using surgical gloves when dealing with this problem....to protect the skin from bacteria from your skin. If you have to use an over-the-counter product....use pure corn starch. Do not use anything with talc. Keep any scaled skin covered in corn starch.

As always, I am available to consult directly with your vet if necessary to help Pidge.

Randy

 

[bunnymommy76]

Thanks Randy, I'll definitley suggest all that to my vet thurs. I'm going to try and find the oatmeal shampoo tone more question for you, if Pidge does have EC and we start him on treatment should my other rabbit be treated also? He's only a yr old but I'm sure he has been exposed to pidgey's urine. I'm trying to keep them apart the best I can. Thanks so much for your advice all the time, I will let you know how it goes thursday and what they suggest.

 

[ra7751]

Umm....pre-emptive treating on the other rabbit would be up to debate. Like all coccidia, EC is truly controlled only by the immune system....the drugs are only "tools". Since your other rabbit most likely has carried EC subclinically since birth (nearly every domestic rabbit has been exposed to EC), I wouldtend to concentrate on supporting the immune system. I have never separated any bonded rabbits due to illness....the stress and confusion can lead to a depressed immune system and that can cause additional problems with the entire group. EC is like pasteurella....nearly every rabbit already has it but the immune system has it under control. And really, by the time symptoms are presented, exposure has already happened. You can also look at it by the drug used. I pretty much know that the "bendazoles" leave a lot to be desired as far as treating EC. But it never hurts to deworm your animals. Since I use Ponazuril, I would tend more to a pre-emptive on house mates than I would if I had to use a "bendazole". Unfortunately,any treatment may come down to cost. Ponazuril is dosed for a horse...itcomes in a verylarge syringe and is very expensive. It is not the easiest drug to acquire. If your vet has contacts in the equine community....that might be your best chance at getting enough to treat Pidge without breaking the bank. It's a very concentrated drug as sold so it doesn't take much to make enough to run a full course of treatment for a rabbit. Let us know how things go with the vet visit.

Randy

 

[bunnymommy76]

okay, just wondered. Also I bought some desitin until I can get to the vet, someone else suggested it, is this safe if he licked it?? For a human it says to contact posion control if ingested, this can't be good for a bunny either can it? would it be better if I loosely wrapped his feet after putting it on? or just nix that idea and use the cornstarch? I don't know what would be better for him right now.

 

[ra7751]

I have used Destin but I like the corn starch better. Wrapping isn't something that is easy and it usually doesn't stay there too long.

 

[bunnymommy76]

Just a little update on Pidge. I took him to the vet yesterday, they took some blood for a full blood chemistry and the EC Titer. They were also able to get a urine sample. The doctor also took some X-rays,Pidge does have some arthritis in his spine, but because he is peeing so much kidney problems are suspected. The doctor was suppose to call me today with the results of the bloodwork, i haven't heard anything yet. I will update If I hear anything tonight.

 

[Maureen Las]

ray:hope his kidneys are OK....

 

[bunnymommy76]

I heard from the doctor...she said that everything including his kidneys were in the "normal" range, the only thing she did say was that his white blood cells were elevated, making her think that he has a huge urinary infection. She said that she is going to put him on a very high dosage of baytril to try and clear it up. The urine itself was okay other that the fact that he has crystals in it. She also asked me if he has been eating his cecotropes, I told her that I have been finding them around more often, she said that he has a bit of a vitamin b definciency. She said that could be because he isnt eating his cecotropes because its hard for him to get under there with his arthritis in his back. So she is putting him on lixotinic for the deficiency and metacam for the pain in his back. I think I have heard aboutlixotinic before, is this safe for him to take, I thought it had liver in it?

As for his leg, I was watching him hop before and it really isnt that hes dragging or has a weak leg when he hops, its when hes sitting in one spot that he leans to the one side and it seems weaker, I'm guessing that he's just trying to compensate for his arthritis.

SO, I guess as for right now we are treating this as arthritis and amajor urinary infection, the EC test hasn't come back yet, I guess it takes about a week. I guess we will just wait and see if the peeing stops being on the baytril and what the EC test says!

 

[Maureen Las]

I will look up lixotinic as I don't know what it is..

there's something I don't understand:?

usually when there is a bladder infection there is a high level of bacteria found in the urine itself when the urine is tested so I'm not sure why the doctor thinks it is a bladder infection if she found only crytals in the urine and no bacteria

The WBC being high would indicate an infection.. somewhere

is there anything you left out that the vet told you?

 

[ra7751]

Umm....in my non-professional opinion, Lixotonic isn't something I would use. If there is a B deficiency, why not administer B vitamins? We use injections of B Comp quite a bit in wildlife. It is really beneficial. There are also several multi-vitamins (Vionate is one) that comes in a powdered form and are safe and effective for rabbits if the situation warrants supplemental vitamins. I never use anything that is put in the drinking water....the only thing you get is contaminated water.

Since a titer for EC can't be done in a clinic (only a few labs can actually work this titer)....I would send blood out for the EC titer to a qualified lab just to be sure.

I am not a huge fan of using Baytril....actually, I don't use Baytril in any species. I have not used Baytril in years and most of the exotic focus vets I know don't use it any longer.....I have heard of dog vets discontinuing Baytril. In it's day, it was (key word is "was") a miracle drug but thru overuse, bacteria has mutated and become resistant. Sometimes Baytril will work maybe once, twice if you are lucky....but we know much more about antibiotic use in rabbits....and there are much more effective drugs that can be used safely. I use drugs such as Penicillin, Zithromax, Chloramphenicol and Convenia....many old school people react with disbelief as these drugs have always been considered "unsafe"....but they work when Baytril drops the ball and are safe when administered correctly.

Again, I am not a vet and this is my non-professional opinion based strictly on my experiences in dealing with rabbit infections. Not suggesting you use these drugs....but it does give you some topics of conversation for you to discuss with your vet.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

http://www.pfizerah.com/product_overview.asp?drug=LY&country=US&lang=EN&species=EQ
it is for horses and has liver in it. Since horses are herbivorves as are rabbits it probably is OK but I don't really know.
Since Randy has already been helping you you may want to ask him.

I know that Randy's vets give vit b injections to their rabbits prior to putting them on bicillin so I think it (Vitamin b ) can be administered by injection also