E Cuniculi success rates?

[murph72]

I'm new to this forum as of tonight. I have a holland lop that developed a slight head tilt on the 28th of December. I took her to the vet who prescribed antibiotics and sent us home saying it didn't look like an ear infection because her ears were spotless.

By the night of the 30th, she was rolling and could not get her balance. We rushed her to the emergency vet who said it was most likely E. Cuniculi and gave us antibiotic for her down eye and told us to finish out the antibiotic. I fed her with the critical care until the 3rd when she decided she'd had enough of that. She sat herself up (head still tilted) and ate solid foods when I gave them to her. I have since then been feeding her the solids in front of her and giving her water by a dropper throughout the day.

My vets do not have her on any kind of prescription and have basically stated that she will have to fight it off on her own. She is eating, pooping, peeing, etc. as she should be but is still dizzy and has the dramatic head tilt. I've seen her straighten her head to reach things on the other side of her and to clean her opposite back foot, but the head always returns to the original position.

My question then is, have there been successes with this problem? Will she at least return to being mobile?Should she be on any medications since she is presently onnone? When should I be expecting to see any changes?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me on this confusing disease that even my vets don't seem that familiar with. I had the feeling that most people that brought in their bunnies with this problem just had them put to sleep so they couldn't tell me of any success stories.

 

[Haley]

Hi there and welcome.

Im sorry to hear about your bunny. I dont have any experience with ec,but I know some members here will have some info for you.

From what I do know, it is treatable. One of our mods, M.E. has a bunny with head tilt who seems to be coping quite well. Hopefully she will see this and have some more info for you.

For now, keeping her eating and drinking is essential, as you know. I think there are also meds that help with the dizzyness and such.

I'll be praying for your little one.ray:

-Haley

PS. Whats her name??

 

[Pipp]

Here's a lot of links to info on E. Cuniculi...

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=14471&forum_id=10

Here's more on head tilt:

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11840&forum_id=10

And as Haley said, several members (as often than not, it seems) have tilted bunnies living normal lives (as noted, M.E.'s Peanut), and at least one bunny who un-tilted year later (Gabby's Brice).

Brice is in the second thread, I guess we should find and add Peanut, too. .

Hope this helps!



sas

 

[Haley]

Also, heres a link to our resource center. Theres lots of info there on head tilt and ec:

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11840&forum_id=10

Hope that helps a bit. Also, is your vet experienced with rabbits? Some really great dog and cat vets have no clue how to treat rabbits. You might want to check into finding someone else more equipped to handle this.We have a list of some great rabbit vets, sorted by area. You can check that out if you would liketo find some one in your area:http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_forum.php?id=9

 

[lalena2148]

My Latte has head tilt and just got it on12/20/06. His was caused by an inner ear infection (at least that's the vet's diagnosis...because he previously have a very bad upper resinfection). He was on Baytril for 14 days and is now running, jumping,and living a very normal life w/ a slight tilt.

For dizziness, my doc prescribed Meclizine (aka Dramamine). Latte is about 3.5 lbs I believe. But he prescribed 1 1/2 tablets of 12.5 MG Meclizine every 24 hours for 5 days. I had to crush the tablets and I put it on a spoon mixed with banana baby food. Latte licked it right off! However, I would check w/ your vet regarding the dosage for your bun. But, I will say it worked very well. Although it made him sleepy,with in a few days, he was eating on his own.

Good luck to you and your bun. I know how hard it is to seem them rolling and not being able to do a lot. And it's hard to have to sit and force feed them. Here's some tips I learned: 1)if you roll up some hand towels and put them around their cage (in against the sides) they have something to lean against and feel more comfortable sleeping (2)if you are using a water bottle, switch to a heavy, stoneware bowl.They can drink easier if it's on the ground (3) if it can't get in to it's litter box, cut some of the side off so it can walk in...or use puppy wee-wee pads (4) keep them eating! It may take a while, but once they start, give them all the hay they can eat (5) I bought a plastic grate (from the craft store for yarn cross-stich stuff) and put it over the litter in the litter box. That way I could keep an eye on how many poops over night and if they look normal. It's very important.

If you need anymore help or support, feel free to PM me! I'm sure m.e.and others would love to help out too. I would have never gotten through Latte's head tilt incident with out all the people on R.O.Thanks guys! I should really take some video of Latte. You can'tbelieve what a tilted bunny can still do! He's insane!

Also, did you just recently get your bun? E.Cuniculi is extremely contagious. If it was around other rabbits, they could have it as well.When I got Latte, I adopted him from a rescue where he was surrounded by tons of other rabbits. Apparently, whoever dropped my boy off and had "gotten sick of him" had also left him with a bad upper resinfection. By the time I got him, it was REALLY bad, and then turned into an inner ear , resulting in the tilt because his equilibrium was all off. I called the rescue because upper res infections can be contagious, and all they said was "ok, thanks for letting us know, but we don't have any meds here to treat them". They didn't even test the buns, and now people unknowingly adopted rabbits that could have awful upper res. infections!

I agree with Haley though; make sure you find a rabbit-savvy vet. My emergency ones are not. Also, read those links as they are chock fullof great information. Also, what kind of antibiotics is your little one on?

I will keep you and the little bun in my prayers. ray:And so will Drizzle and Latte. :brown-bunny:brown-bunnyMuch love and luck. Keep us posted.

 

[naturestee]

There are meds available for E.cuniculi. I wonder why you weren't given any?Definately call your vet, tell him what the emergency vet said, and ask for a prescription. There's lots of info in the links Pipp and Haley posted, and if you need to you could print off some of the articles and bring them in to the vet.

Also, it would probably help if you could find a better rabbit vet, or at least one for your regular vet to consult with.

Head tilt is treatable and many rabbits adjust well even if they are never 100% healed.

 

[murph72]

Haley,

Thanks for the kind words. Her name is Pudge. She has a playmate that is a mini lop named Punkin who is missing her since they can't be together right now. So, basically I have two sad bunnies right now.

Dyan

 

[murph72]

lalena,

I have had her since March of 06. She is one year old this month. She was around her playmate Punkin (a mini lop) the whole time and Punkin shows no signs of problems....other than she's bored and doesn't know what to do with herself without a friend to play with.

I obtained both of my rabbits from a breeder. My vet tried to tell me she always had the e.cuniculi and that it just never flared up before. He also told me it was a problem with the breed.

I will check out the threads you have all sent. Thanks for the information.

Dyan

 

[murph72]

Oh, I forgot...Pudge also was on 10 days of Baytril, but she did not respond to that during that time period since it was during then that she got worse and rolled. My vet seems to be afraid to give her drugs if she is eating and drinking cuz he thinks it will mess up her system and make her worse...which I certainly don't want so I didn't argue with him over it.

 

[lalena2148]

murph72 wrote:

Oh, I forgot...Pudge also was on 10 days of Baytril, but shedid not respond to that during that time period since it was duringthen that she got worse and rolled. My vet seems to be afraidto give her drugs if she is eating and drinking cuz he thinks it willmess up her system and make her worse...which I certainly don't want soI didn't argue with him over it.

Hmm...I'm surprised he didn't prescribe meds for E.Cuniculi. You maywant to talk to another vet just to get a second opinion. As for theBaytril, I guess mine responded well because he had an infectioninstead of E.Cuniculi. And my vet didn't want Latte onBaytril for a longer time than he needed it because it really can messup their digestive system. However, from the articles, E.Cuniculi istreatable. My vet said it is, but that the drugs he used to use totreat E. C. aren't available anymore. If my buns had E.Cuniculi, Iwould have (1) showed him those articles, as my vet really likes toinvestigate new treatments or if he still didn't feel right treatingthem (2) I'd go to see another rabbit savvy vet pronto.

And yes, some rabbits can have E.Cuniculi and then just have flare ups.However, if Pudge had it and was aroundPunkin, Punkin couldhave already gotten it. It's a parasite, so it can just betransferrable if they were/are in close quarters before. I would keep aclose eye on Punkin as well. She may never show any symptoms, but ifthis is indeed E. Cuniculi, she might have it and could have symptomsyears from now. Or, like I said, nothing could ever show up (I thinkm.e's Peanut has a pal that was around Peanut and doesn'tshowany signs of E.C.). My vet says E.Cuniculi shows a "gradualdecrease" in health, as opposed my bun Latte who went from 100% to notbeing able to stand up in a matter of an hour.
But like I said, from succes stories here on the forums, it candefinitely be treated! m.e.'s Peanut has a much more severe tilt thanmy bun, but has a great life!

I am concerned that he said E.C was a problem with that breed. Anybreed can get it. I would definitely look into seeing another vet. Theymay have some new insight.

How's Pudge doing today? Is she rolling still? If so, I would call thevet regarding the Meclizine. Latte was definitely more willing to eatwhen he felt less dizzy. Until then, you could just pile hay in acertain part on the floor of her cage. That way, she could eat whileshe lies down. Latte did really well with that.

Keep us posted!ray:

 

[m.e.]

As the othe rmembers have mentioned, there are meds for E.C. Peanut was on a month-long round of Panacur(Fenbendazole), as well as antibiotics (Doxycyline/Orbifloxacin) combo. Like lalenamentioned, you can also give your bunny Meclizine if the dizziness isvery severe. Once Peanut could stand and eat on her own, I eased backon the Meclizine and she's done fine since.

Your vet is right that Pudge might have had the E. cuniculi protazoanbut never experienced a flare-up before. The latest thinking is that most rabbits harbor E.C., but it doesn't usually cause problems because the immune system keeps it in check. Often when a rabbit ages or becomes ill the immune system is taxed and the protazoan reproduces and causes problems in the brain, leading to head tilt and/or paralysis.

Once a rabbit is showing signs of an E. cuniculi problem in the brain,they're likely no longer contagious, as the protazoan is shed while living in the kidneys. An infected animal may not ever show problems,and sometimes the problems will crop up years after the rabbit contracts E.C.

This is an excellent article on E.C. research:http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-2/e-cuniculi.html

There's no guarantee that meds will help Pudge. E.C. meds can stop a flare up, but they cannot reverse any permanent damage. Similarly,treating for an inner ear infection will not reverse a vestibular disorder. We treated Peanut for both, and she still has a tilt. It could be E.C., it could be vestibular - who knows?

The vet has told me that after months of visits and various meds, my girl has shown no clinical improvement. As completely heartbreaking as that was to hear, it has also helped me to realize how well bunnies can adapt. Peanut walks, runs, eats on her own, cleans herself, and snuggles with Rex, all with her head on crooked

The decision to treat your rabbit, and for how long, is entirely up to you. I'm not a person who feels that aggressive treatment is necessarily the best option, but if your gut is telling you that Pudge needs something more, then do whatever it takes. You're her advocate.

 

[naturestee]

Any chance of a better vet? Yes, meds sometimes upset a rabbit's GI tract. But it's very important to treat the disease. If the vet thinks your bun has E.cuniculi, then she should definately be on meds for it. It seems silly not to treat it. Any chance you can get to a better rabbit vet?

I think you should be able to keep Pudge and Punkin together, as long as they're getting along okay. Punkin might help her to keep clean (it's hard for her to groom herself right now) and to give her comfort and support. Since they were already living together Punkin would already be exposed to whatever is causing Pudge's head tilt. Plus many rabbits carry E. cuniculi but never show any symptoms.

E. cuniculi is not a breed problem, it's a parasite. Any rabbit can have it, regardless of breed. Maybe your vet is thinking of ear infections because she is a lop? Lops are supposed to be a bit more prone to ear problems but I don't know how common that actually is.

Oh, and this is an awesome website on how to care for rabbits with head tilt. M.E., who also has a bunny with head tilt, uses a similar setup.
http://www.mohrskc.org/hrswebpg19.html

Edit: M.E. posted at the same time as me.

 

[lalena2148]

m.e. wrote:

Once a rabbit is showing signs of an E. cuniculi problem in the brain, they're likely no longer contagious, as the protazoan is shed while living in the kidneys. An infected animal may not ever show problems, and sometimes the problems will crop up years after the rabbit contracts E.C.

Thanks for straightening me out on the issue. My vet had said that but I got it confused. I know he had said, if it was E.C. Drizzle COULD have gotten it before Latte got really sick. But thanks for the info. I bow down to you, as you have dealt with this a lot longer than I have:bowIf it wasn't for yours and Peanut's story, I probably would have lost my mind thinking Latte was doomed. But you said he wasn't, and he's not. Thank you (and to everyone else who helped!):hug2:

There's no guarantee that meds will help Pudge. E.C. meds can stop a flareup, but they cannot reverse any permanent damage. Similarly, treating for an inner ear infection will not reverse a vestibular disorder. We treated Peanut for both, and shes till has a tilt. It could be E.C., it could be vestibular - who knows?

Very true. Latte is still sorta tilted. The meds did help with many of his symptoms but his tilt is still there,although it is MUCH better than it used to be. Sometimes, he even seems to be straight! But my little man still jumps around like crazy. Last night, I opened the top of his cage to get his dinner set up (I like to keep the things arranged in his cage a certain way so he doesn't get confused) and I turn around and he's on top of his cage (balancing on about 3.5 inches of the cage rim)! :foreheadsmack:Scared me half to death but he likes finding his own way around.

My vet had also said, if Latte didn't show an improvement on Baytril over 14 days, it was probably E.C., to which he originally had said all they could do was make him 'comfortable', but after I sent him the articles RO has on head tilt, he was willing to work with me IF he hadit. Thank goodness it seemed like an inner ear. However, he did say be prepared for inner ear infections that could pop up in the future.

 

[bluebird]

This may be caused by an inner ear infection or a parasite.The parasite migrates when the rabbit gets dehydrated.there is nothing to kill it but many breeders use a drug that keeps it from migrating.Ivomec (ivermectin).by mouth not injected, every three months as a prevention,also too treat along with piperzine.Barbie Browns website has the best information on this.I have never heard it was a breed issue.I have seen this in lots of breeds.bluebird

 

[murph72]

I looked at the list of vets from the site but none of them are within a distance I would certainly want to be transporting my dizzy bunny. So, I guess I will have to work with the vet that I have and try to get him to do something more assertive. I guess it's just a matter of which method of treatment is the best method. That certainly seems to be the tricky question.

 

[m.e.]

murph72 wrote:

I guess it's just a matter of which method of treatment is the best method. That certainly seems to be the tricky question.

And believe me, that is the most frustrating thing about head tilt. It could be this or it could be that. This treatment works for some rabbits, but not others. This treatment requires two weeks, this one is for four weeks, and this one says that the two week treatment is bogus. I mean, there's just so much information out there, and it's all pretty nebulous (and not always reassuring :?)

My advice: Do your research; the web is your best friend (those links that Pipp posted are a great place to start). Even if your vet isn't familiar with head tilt cases, print off the important information and have him read it over. Some of the information will be contradictory, but glean what you can from it.

Then spend time with your girl. It sounds like she has some coordination (reaching around to groom herself is a great sign) and I'll guarantee that the time you spend with her will help you know which course to take :hug2:

 

[murph72]

Yeah, Pudge certainly has some abilities dispite the drastic head tilt. She can clean her back feet, scratch her ear, etc. She keeps trying to groom herself even when it throws her off balance to shake her head. However, she gets days when she's just really dizzy and you can see her eye rolling up and down in its socket. Those are the days she's prone to rolling and it's harder for her to sit up by herself. I almost think if there was a way to just get rid of the dizziness that she'd be fine. Though I worry that leaving the head tilt symptom untreated is just meaning it will get worse.

I will keep reading up on the web and get some second, third and fourth opinions. Thanks for your help.

 

[Haley]

Also, its your call, but it might be better to keep the bonded pair together from what I know.

It might be good for your girl to have her buddy to lean on. M.E.'s pair is still together, despite the fact that one has tilt. Its your call (because its so unclear what causes tilt and if its contaigeous,etc) but its something to consider.

 

[murph72]

They are a pair in that they are playmates, but that's the problem. Although Punkin will lick Pudge's head,she also gets pretty rough with her. Punkin is twice the size of Pudge (by breed, not age.) When I found her that night rolling around,Punkin was still being rough with her. So, really, for Pudge's protection I split them up more so than for Punkin's (for the contagious factor of the illness.) I really want to get Pudge more stable when I reintroduce them.

I have gone between the two without washing my hands just so I could carry the scent so the other would know that their peer was still around. But, I really don't think it's safe for Pudge right now in the wobbly state she's in to have her playmate insisting on a game of catch the bunny.

Other than boredom, I think Punkin is doing fine flying solo.We try to entertain her, but we can't replace Pudge. I guess it's just a hurdle she'll have to get over in life.

 

[murph72]

Just an update. Pudge has had a really promising week. Her eye is no longer rolling up in her head. She is now able to move somewhat around the box without falling over so readily. She is also rolling much less with every day that has passed this week.

I spoke with Barbi Brown (breeder from one link someone gave me) via email and she has convinced me to go tomorrow to get wormer to treat Pudge myself. My veterinarian has not returned my calls that I left with the receptionist concerning him looking over some of the treatment options I found on this forum :X So, I guess I'mjust going to have to treat her on my own. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I will try to get some pictures of my babies to post. I did not take one of Pudge at her worst because I truly did not have the best hope for her and would not want to keep a picture if she didn't make it.

One thing I did learn about e. cuniculi is that it's spores can live for 2 years. Barbi has instructed me to clean everything that I can with bleach. Unfortunately, not everything I have in Pudge's original pen (where Punkin still resides) can be bleached. Thankfully, Punkin shows no signs of the disorder.

Please keep my little ones in your prayers and thanks again for all your help. I really do appreciate it.