Doc & Dora to Doc & Aurora

[qtipthebun]

Just caught up on your blog. I love the bun stories. Qtip was having fun looking at the bunny pictures with me. She thinks Doc's nose is handsome. And she loves Rory's coloring (oh, I'm sorry, am I projecting??)! Now she's pushing me to get her a little brother. I told her no, because she bites the cat. So instead, she's making me follow your blog religiously.

 

[whitelop]

I've never been to Disneyworld. I've heard its stressful. But I really want to go to Harry Potter World! haha. I love Harry Potter and I think that would just be the bee's knees!
I couldn't imagine WANTING to take the kids in the strollers or the ones who couldn't walk. There is no fun in that when you're NOT at a disney park. I can't wait until my son is like 6 then we'll go! That sounds good to me. I think being pregnant wouldn't be a problem, good exercise but you couldn't ride the rides and you wind up the crap carrier. lmao.

 

[PaGal]

The last time we went to the state fair the girls were like four and spent most of the time in the stroller because they were just too young to walk to much and in the crowds. I think we spent maybe an hour or two there. That was it. I didn't really care much at the time but for the past couple of years I have just been dying to go and especially to see all the buns but we haven't been able to make it I could only imagine what it would be like doing it at Disneyland and for a week. I think there is also too much going on and too many people around which tires out and stresses out the youngsters. The kids that are young will definitely not even remember a thing when they are older. Some parents are dumb.

 

[lyndym]

Thanks for reading, Q-tip's Mom! Doc and Rory thank Q (and you!) for the compliments. I love Doc's nose as well, for some reason it seems like a sillier little bun nose than other noses. Might also be the way he pokes it around. And I'm still not over Rory's fur colour, seems like I find new things to love about it every day! Today I was admiring how she has a kind of light silvery grey around her cheeks.

Morgan - I reeeally want to go to Harry Potter world. It would be incredible. There's a bassoon audition in Naples, FL in May that I might go to. I was really hoping to get to HP world on the same trip, but they're a few hundred miles apart.

PaGal - Some parents are really dumb, and they all seem to be at Disneyland! At least state fairs and stuff aren't as expensive and home is easy to get back to. I couldn't imagine planning a huge Disney vacation and spending half the time yelling at my kid while he cried.

Had another go with the rabbits on the dryer again. More success! We were only there for 10-12 minutes or so, and they went into the small pen in the kitchen while still in the carrier. I left them for about 10 minutes. This time Rory was closest to the carrier door. She peeped her head out a few times, I thought she would try and come out, but she kept going back inside. I took this as a good sign, I thought she was nervous to come out after the dryer and decided it was nicer to stay in the carrier where Doc was. After 10 minutes, I took the carrier top off. The past two times we stressed, I petted them for a minute tops without stopping so they (namely Miss Aurora) would have no chance to reach and nip each other and immediately put them each away. This time I started by petting them, then left them alone to see what they'd do. I repeated this petting and then watching for maybe 10 more minutes. Again, Aurora peeked up a few times, but didn't leave the carrier. Doc mostly kept his head down the whole time, which I took as him seriously requesting to be groomed since he didn't seem as bothered by the dryer as Aurora was.

I think tomorrow I'll put them in the carrier and run the bathroom fan or hair dryer for a bit, then put them in the small pen and immediately take the top off of it. I'll try to interrupt with pets less often.

Dryer attempt 1, stress attempt 2. Yes, Rory's back there, Doc's just being a fatty and getting in the way!

Tonight, second time with the dryer. They switched places, haha.

After the dryer tonight, I'm going ahead and saying this is their first official cuddling photo! Rory really stuck her face by Doc at this point, though as you can see she's too shy to stick her face in his. And you can toootally see the really old dried banana on Doc's head! From over a month ago during a really early date with Aurora! Man, he does need this bun to groom him.

 

[agnesthelion]

Oh wow they look like they are totally cuddling. Stressing must work well with your two. I'm loving the progress! Yay for bonding!

I've been to Disneyworld. We loved it but we were childless adults at the time so of course we had fun! Yes Disneyworld is huge. I don't even know how many different parks.

I can't decide if we will take our son or not one day. So many places to travel in the world so it's hard to decide what to spend your money on ya kmow? It's not that I didn't like it or anything just unsure of that will be one of our "big trips".

Strollers suck and I would never take my son in a stroller to Disneyworld but i don't judge parents who do. Disneyworld is for kids so of course there are gonna be strollers. Every parent has different things they can tolerate. Sometimes they can't avoid taking a young child because they have to squeeze the trip in before the oldest is "too old" and so they have no choice but to take the young kids or baby. And some 4,5 and 6 year olds are in strollers at places like that because there is so much walking. My son will still ask sometimes to ride in a stroller but I don't let him anymore. I tell him he's such a big boy and doesn't need one

 

[Chrisdoc]

No, never been to Disneyworld, the nearest one to here is Paris. I haven´t got kids so there are other places I´d rather visit. Wouldn´t mind the Harry Potter World though, that sounds like my kind of place, where is it ???

Love the photo of Doc and Rory cuddling. what a laugh that Doc´s got the banana on his head. That is a great photo and progress indeed.

 

[lyndym]

Ugh, big step back tonight you guys. And I had more pictures to share, but I'm not in the mood.

Basically, I put them in the carrier to stress them in the bathroom with the fan running. The bathroom fan is loud. I occasionally tilted the carrier a bit, but saw that Aurora was looking similarly to when they had been on the dryer, so I figured she was at a good level of stress as it was. After maybe ten minutes, they began fighting. Inside the carrier, which is tiny. I couldn't tell who started it, but it was mostly Aurora's fur flying around after I removed both buns. Ugh, I am so disappointed and grumpy and want to give up now.

Were they not stressed enough because there was no constant motion happening to the carrier? I was worried the dryer wouldn't be enough vibration, it's surprisingly smooth-running for an apartment appliance. I just can't toss a ton of quarters into the dryer to keep doing this when there isn't laundry to do! And I don't want to drive them by myself, especially after today. In fact, now I'm back to square one as well with being super nervous about even putting them back in the carrier.

I can't believe all my efforts are essentially erased now. I even bought some applesauce to put on Aurora's head tonight post-stressing since yesterday ended so well with the cuddling, I thought I could encourage grooming easily. Ugh I feel so bad for Doc. Aurora just doesn't seem like she cares after these spats - she doesn't seem scared or upset or anything, but poor Doc gets snuffly and his little heart is pounding. He lets me hold him and seems to snuggle into my shirt.

Anyway. Now I don't know when to try again, how I should go about it, and even if I want to. So disappointed at this big set back.

 

[Chrisdoc]

Oh, that is so disappointing but don´t give up, there have been loads of positive vibes from the two of them and sometimes something just freaks them, it happens with mine quite often, they are doing great and then there´ll be a niggle and they´ll start if I don´t intervene. It is a long process and don´t see this as a setback, see it as a lesson and learn from it. They do like each other and they have cuddled and that will happen again. The worst we do is lose faith in them and give up...don´t do that...was there serious kissing with teeth or was it just a bit of fur flying. I´d maybe leave it a couple of days and continue then. Believe in them and believe it´s gonna happen. I´m the eternal optimist and these two HAVE to be together.

 

[agnesthelion]

Oh bummer. I'm so sorry this happened. But don't give up! I know that it seems hopeless and it's so discouraging when something like this happens but sometimes a step back happens. It doesn't mean they won't bond. These two have had some really positive interactions so I definitely think they are bondable.

My theory is that they got too used to that stressing. They were comfortable enough to fight, obviously. So, with a step back it's best to change things up. I would let them calm down for a few days and maybe try a completely different location for a date. Do you have a friends house you can go to? Or the trunk of a car? Keep their date really, really short. Like a minute. Follow your gut and if you need to pet them the entire time so they don't fight do that. You want to end it on a positive note.

If you want to go back to stressing (but a different manner this time of course) I have some concerns about that carrier. I recommended an open box so you have full access to them from the top.

Another method to consider is the wear them down method. Get gloves, and a spray bottle and just break up the fight every time but don't give up until they succumb to liking each other. That article I gave you has an explanation on that.

Anyway....sigh.....yeah not fun when this happens I'm always rooting for success and I hate hearing of troubles. It's hard because every rabbit is so different so what works for some may not for another. And you know your buns the best. Follow your gut and learn those subtle signs they give each other.

You will get there!! Don't give up!! We will all cheer you on the whole way!!

 

[Chrisdoc]

Lisa, I knew you´d be there and I do agree maybe use a laundry basket where you have access to them from above to stop any spontaneous niggles. And yes, shorten their dates and do it on completely neutral territory. These two are a cert for being together, don´t give up after the first hurdle.

And yes, we´ll be there to support you and to cheer you on.

Doc and Rory will make it, just believe.

 

[Kzbun]

What a bummer about the last bonding session, but there's always bumps in the road to success!! Don't give up!

 

[whitelop]

Where are their cages in proximity to each other? I know with Michelle, she had a lady from the rescue and the lady told her to move the cages close together so they see each other all the time. It totally changed their behavior for her and changed their bonding attempt.
Maybe if their cages are close enough you could move them closer and give it a week or so like that, then wait to start the bonding together if their attitudes toward each other seem to have improved.
Keep in mind that the only thing I know about bonding has been learned by Lisa's blog, Michelle's and now yours. And Chris's with her boys, but her boys appear to be a little easier than your two and Michelle's! LOL Chris has also been doing things REALLY slowly.

Thats my suggestion though and if I were bonding and knew more about it, I would make sure their cages are close together. It really helped Michelle's buns. She was really negative about it then she moved the cages and had someone help her out, she came back SUPER positive about the bond!

 

[holtzchick]

Awh you know what, that picture of them cuddling totally looks like my two. They look stressed and uncomfortable in my opinion. That's exactly what happened with my two on their stress dates as well... the first couple worked and then after that, they started to pull fur from each other. That's when I stopped the stress dates and separated them for a month.

Can you take a picture of their enclosures side by side. I'd love to see what they look like, it makes a huge difference. Your buns sound exactly like mine, seriously. Since I've started taking it slow and steady, they seem happier. I will take a video of my buns tonight and show you what they look like during their dates The past few days, they were really grumpy during their dates so I stopped them for now and now they're laying side by side in their cages so as long as you don't really allow them to fight, they won't hold a grudge. I won't let either of mine nip each other because it gets the fur flying and it stresses both out.

 

[lyndym]

Thanks for the support, everyone. I know I won't give up, I was just so excited to try again last night and feeling great about the cuddles from the night before, then this had to happen. I was also really hoping to get them to the point where they could go on a longer car ride (an hour) next weekend for Easter and spend the afternoon in a neutral pen at my parents', but they obviously aren't even close to something like that yet.

I know everyone is mentioning an open-top box as opposed to the carrier.. The reason I chose the carrier in the first place is because of Aurora's initial reactions to any movement Doc made during their first few dates. She's always be perfectly fine when they were both settled down for pets from me, but the second he made any sort of movement, whether or not it was even towards her, she'd lunge at him. I figured in the carrier, where he can't really move about, she'd be less inclined to feel hostility towards him. It's still something to try, but I'm just not sure. My presence during their early small pen dates and ability to easily pet and separate them didn't seem to help at all - there would be the initial nip, I'd try to intervene, and they'd erupt into that whole circling and fighting thing. They were actually trying to circle after each other inside the carrier, which I thought impossible. Ugh.

I'm also really wary about the neutral short date idea. They were having none of that a few weeks ago. The last one we did, I hardly got both buns in the same place before Aurora lashed out! I might have to succumb to the wearing down method, but that's really intimidating to do alone. Gah, rabbits.

Their cages are definitely next to each other and have been like that since day one. I read somewhere to put the litter boxes on opposite sides and give food on the closest sides, and that is what I've been doing. They also switch daily, play in the same area separately, use the same toys during play time.

I mentioned awhile ago that I was going to get a second ex-pen so I could divide up the play area and have separate play time at the same time. (I screwed up and bought what I thought was a pen and pen mat, but it was just the stupid mat. Ugh stupid confusing Amazon.) Would that still be something that might help? At least they'd get double the play time they are getting individually now.. But I haven't really heard of that kind of suggestion anywhere, so I don't know..

Thanks again, guys. Hopefully I'll get a second (third? fourth?) wind for this whole bonding thing in a couple days!

Thanks again everyone.

 

[lyndym]

Okay guys, I am so dumb! So the way my apartment is set up, I have the rabbits in this alcove across from my bedroom door. Well, "Doc's" cage, the bigger one, is in the alcove, "Rory's" smaller one is just outside it. (I call them that only to differentiate between the two, they are switching daily.) I slid Doc's out when originally setting up when Rory came home so they could see each other. The problem with the positioning of these cages is from Rory's cage, a rabbit can see the living room play area, from Doc's, a rabbit cannot see the play area. I was just standing in the living room staring at my set up and remembering a post I made about how both rabbits go crazy only when Doc is out and Rory is in. Well DUH, that's the only time they can see each other during play time! When it's Rory's turn out, Doc is in "his" cage farther back towards my room and it's harder for them to see each other. The way I have their switching schedule makes it so Doc is in the smaller cage at night, when both buns are housed and not in the play area at all. I could switch up their schedule, buuut it'd probably make things easier if they were generally closer during separate play time.

OKAY second/third/twelfth wind is back - I just texted my roommate to see if I can move the buns' cages into the living area in front of the fire place. (We don't really use the fire place, haha.) Anyway, this way they will be able to see each other while one is in the cage and one is out. I'm assuming this will put things in a positive direction. From what I can tell from Michelle's blog and pictures, Hippo and Phoenix have a similar set up going on.

I'll take before and after pictures of each set up in relation to play area. I hope nobody judges "Rory's" smaller cage. It's just the extra I was using as a travel cage awhile back and not something I wanted to have become as permanent as it has - from their shelter dates I assumed their bonding would go much quicker. (When you assume you make an Ass out of U and Me.. That makes me the ass, hah.) I would use pens, but Doc seriously needs a roof over his head or else he'd be all over this apartment whenever the mood strikes him. Anyway, I am planning on an NIC cage for after they are bonded. (I love Lisa's, I know she got it pre-made, but will definitely be looking to it for my own design! Also, I love the flooring Michelle used for her NIC pens, that'll be a must for me because of my carpet. I'll check Amazon, but any idea where those came from?)

Okay, time to take some pics of our old set up and work on our new set up once my roommate gives the green light! Should be fine, she's barely ever here.

 

[Chrisdoc]

Lyndy, the great thing is you´re still positive and I think that that´s the most important thing when you´re bonding the buns as I think our energy does transfer to them and negative feelings are not good. I think your ideas for their set up will make a big improvement, it will be good to see the photos and then Michelle can chip in with what she thinks as she´s going through the same thing now.

Whoever said being a bunny slave was easy...sometimes it drives me mad especially on days when they´re all being naughty but they are so worth it and bonding issues are particularly difficult but I am sure that they will be OK and we will see them together. Patience is a necessity when you have bunnies so just take it easy and it will work out.

 

[lyndym]

Okay guys, thank you all again for the support! I feel much better tonight in going forth with my new plan. The buns are all moved in to their new spot in the apartment. I'm sure tomorrow morning I'll open up my bedroom door and get a bit of a shock in not seeing them right there, but I'll adjust, hahaha. They're just in their respective cages looking around from their new point of view.. So funny how they always check everything out, even when they aren't running around. It's been ten minutes or so, they're showing new interest in each other. I might let Aurora out in a bit. I figure I'll let her go first so she doesn't get upset at Doc getting the first run - since she's the only one openly displaying hostility, I'm guessing she's the more sensitive one in this situation.

The old set up. (Aurora was out at the time.) As you can see, it would be difficult for either bun to see a whole lot of the other, depending on where they were in the cages.

The view the old set up had of the play area in the living room. It's not really visible from where the big cage was at all. (Pardon the clutter and the oddly placed wicker chair and fireplace tools.. Those have to leave the living room when the buns are out, especially that chair as it is basically just a gigantic rabbit chew toy!)

New cage set up! Now they can have a full view of each other at all times including separate play time.

I feel really bad at displaying how small that stupid spare cage is. I bought it for D&D originally because you can add others to it really easily, but it came all banged up with doors falling off. I told Amazon and they refunded me and said I could just throw it away, so I kept it as a spare travel cage. Anyway, I hate having to make them share it as a semi-permanent situation until bonding is completed, but at this point I'm wary at changing any living conditions more than I absolutely have to.

Some more pictures for your viewing pleasure!

Doc is an amazing DBF-er. Sometimes I get startled seeing him like that and yell at him to make him sit up right away, he's so good. (Anyone who's found a rabbit looking like that for real knows it's no fun..) Anyway, I tried to open the door and snap another, but he heard me, of course.

Doc taking an epic bunny nap. I swear, this little guy doesn't know the meaning of a rough day. If I had a picture for every time I caught him in a moment of insane relaxation, I'd need a dozen more external hard drives.

Bunny butts! This was shortly before last night's scuffle.. It did look promising at this point, Rory did turn herself around to be completely next to Doc!

Some cute bunny earrings my parents got me! They went on a trip last weekend to Arizona for spring training with some family friends. The rabbit on the earrings reminds me of Dora - she was half lop and usually had one ear askew. <3

 

[Azerane]

Best of luck with the new set up, I should think it will certainly help for them to be able to see each other during play time

 

[lyndym]

Thanks Azerane! That is what I am hoping for!

Just a quick update before bedtime..

I let the buns settle in for a bit then gave each 20-25 minutes of play time to include the new living situation for the first time. Rory went first. She would go up to Doc's cage a fair amount, and he was waaay interested in her. There was a little bit of nipping going on.. A good enough amount for me to find stressful, but they weren't too bothered by it. A few times I went up to give a treat to each to distract from/discourage the nipping. (Good idea? Bad idea? I have no idea!) I thought I was stressed out from watching them in the Doc-caged and Aurora-out situation, but then Rory went back and Doc came out.. Oh dang!! Aurora was NOT happy to see Doc having some run time. Typically when he gets play time, he has this little routine of checking out the whole area for the first several minutes. (No matter how familiar with a place he is, he's a thorough checker, haha.) Aurora was going INSANE in her cage and running back and forth following him. He would come check her out same as she did to him during her play time, but instead of nipping of equal quality on each side, she would violently claw at Doc through the bars in addition to attempting to nip him. He would still just be more polite about it and "kiss with teeth" as Chris would say. I went over to calm them both a few times, being careful to pet and address Rory first because she might think I'm on "Doc's side" just because he was out at the time. Anyway, Doc really didn't seem to care how violent Aurora was - a couple times she'd start going crazy at his close proximity, and he'd just nip casually at her then turn to groom himself for a minute, and then leave. Once he even went back into his own cage and DBF-ed straight after she tried to massacre him through the bars! I guess it's good he doesn't really seem to mind all that much?

How much should I be allowing them to nip through the bars like that? It has only happened in this new situation of one being out and the other being in the cage, when separated in the cages they are far enough away to not get physical contact.

 

[agnesthelion]

The new setup is definitely better. One suggestion though....is there a way to have both their cages the long way? You want the biggest sides of their cages together so it allows them to see each other/be near each other the most. But obviously still keep the cages a few inches apart.

As far as the nipping while out playing....no I would not allow this. I would get a spray bottle and give a quick spray when they start nipping. And the food is a good idea. Eating is a bonding activity. It would be most ideal to get them to munch on the food together so which ever bun is out put his/her treat next to the other ones cage in hopes that they won't nip but instead start associating munching on a fabulous treat with the other bun.

In a way it's good they had this much action during free run time. It means they can see each other out better. It sounds as though Aurora's territorialness is quite present since she got upset seeing Doc out. She may believe that to be HER free run space and wondered why he was in it. But thats okay and normal. You just will want to work on that aspect. Let Doc out first, she needs to get used to the idea that it's his space too.

I see some very good things with this new setup. Stay positive. It will happen! Keep us updated!

And cute earrings btw. I've been on the hunt for a bunny necklace and I've realized how hard they are to find