Doc & Dora to Doc & Aurora

[lyndym]

Today it's been 3 weeks since Aurora first came home. I decided to try a meeting in the bathtub this afternoon, after each bun had their separate play time and after I did my workout while giving them time to hang out in their cages next to each other after being out. We didn't last more than 45 seconds or so. Nothing terrible erupted, but it definitely wasn't encouraging.. I put Rory in first and came back with Doc. I knelt in the tub holding Doc and put him next to Rory and started pets. Doc immediately registered the slippery floor and climbed onto my lap. Rory tried to get around me to see if the other half of the tub was less slippery. I gently pushed her back in front of me and tried to keep petting them both. She seemed for a minute like she wanted to join Doc on my lap, which for a brief second made me so excited and happy for the prospect of both buns snuggling on my lap together! Of course that didn't happen, she just nosed him in the behind and immediately nipped at him. No fighting happened, I just stood up with Doc and left Rory in the tub while I put him back, but I felt him tense up at the bite and I knew from past attempts he would turn around and retaliate, and Rory was already ready to rumble. :-/

I know he is so into her, I've noticed him at least once over the past couple of days just see her in her cage next to him and then immediately lie down in his own cage as close as possible and facing her. During play time, he seems merely interested in her and will sniff and nibble at the bars of cage or ex-pen, whereas if she sees him, she'll nibble and claw at the bars violently. Should I not have been in the tub with them? It seems like if I wasn't, they would immediately fight anyway.. Luke had an idea of fashioning the ex-pen into two small separate areas and just putting them in their own compartment for a date. They'd try and nip, I'm sure, (well, Rory definitely would..), but perhaps I could get them to lie next to each other with the bars in between?

So I guess a rather disappointing Saturday, I have been waiting to see what the second first date would be like. Luke keeps asking me when we talk on the phone at night if I've put them together yet, and I told him I'd give it a go today. He'll be wanting to know how it went, I wish I had more encouraging news!

Oh Chris, I so want lovely cuddly photos of Doc and Rory. I would love some lovely photos of them just ignoring each other, actually! It's okay, this was just my second first attempt..

Michelle, my buns also seem to know when I am in no mood for nonsense and they really turn the funny business up! I've been having a lot of late nights this week, so perhaps they are just bursting with energy when I get home, but man sometimes Doc will not leave things alone! Also right after a cage switch the other night, he hopped into the litter box, left his butt over the side, and peed all over. Ugh.

 

[holtzchick]

Awh!

When doing bathtub dates, I never sat in there with them, I just monitored them from above. As long as you give them some sort of distraction and constant monitoring (even if it means you have to forcefully pet them side by side) there shouldn't be fighting. The nipping scenario sounds just like my two! This time I am trying their introductions on the bathroom floor as opposed to the tub since Hippogryff was REALLY stressed by it.

The fact that you removed Doc right after Aurora tried to nip is not good. You should leave dates at a positive note and perhaps she will associate the nipping with you removing him when she doesn't want him there so she will continue to nip. Instead, try separating them and petting them side by side and perhaps give them both a treat and then end it on that note

It's so tough I know, I'm trying again in 5 days.... Fingers crossed.
If you have any questions on bonding or wanted to vent or advice or anything feel free to send me a personal message and I'll give you some support It's difficult and my two are pains in the butt!! lol

 

[lyndym]

I just didn't want things to get worse.. I felt Doc tense up at the bite, and I knew things would escalate quickly. I want to try them for a longer amount of time, I would give anything for them to go five minutes together, but Rory is having none of it. I might send you a PM when I'm getting ready to let them try again, or after so we can try and compare some notes. It is frustrating! And so different from my first time around.

I totally had a brain fart this morning after putting Doc back after his play time and left his cage unlatched. It took awhile for him to figure it out since he was busy with salad and pellets, but I came out of my room to leave and found the door wide open and no rabbit inside! He had gone to check Rory out and she ripped out a tuft of his fur. He was in the dining area and was quite squirmy when I tried to get him. Uncharacteristic for him, but he was probably scared of Rory. I felt so bad, and I had even been planning a second attempt in the bathtub for tonight until that happened. From his past behavior towards Aurora, I'm pretty sure he went over to nicely say hello to her and instead got shut down and bitten. Poor guy was all flustered and making his pity me snuffly noise. I spoiled him with cuddles and carrots and he settled down.

Ugh, I have never left a cage unlatched before! Even after coming home from an evening out after a few beverages! I just hope this incident doesn't have a huge negative impact on everything. How long does a rabbit's memory actually hold on to something like this? I know you don't want to build up a lot of negative experiences with the soon-to-be mate, but next time I put them together, will Aurora actually be thinking "Ohh, thiiis is the guy who was all up in my business that one time!"? I mean, I know she won't actually think that, but you know what I'm saying.

Oh Doc. The poor little guy just wants to be loved. Whether he's out or in his cage, he's always going over towards her and checking her out. Right now he's watching her eat hay from the living room. I keep telling her he's a sweet guy, but she's not taking my word for anything!

On a funnier note, I got a new spray bottle to bother the buns with when they're chewing bars and to use during eventual dates. I didn't notice that I got a mister instead of one that shoots a stream of water. It is really not effective at all since I have to be really close to the offending bun to get them wet, annnd Doc basically stares at me like I'm an ***** when I'm misting him in the face. He doesn't care at all.

 

[Chrisdoc]

It is just so difficult sometimes but you must perservere and have patience. He sounds like such a softy, I feel sorry for him that Rory is not making it easy but I´m sure she´ll come round...she seems to be playing the hard to get chick at the moment. As long as he doesn´t lose interest, I am sure they will sort it out between them. I´ve had ups and downs but I am always sure that, deep down, they do love each other but just sometimes don´t quite know how to express that without kissing with teeth (that´s what my friend call its). So now I tell mine that it´s Ok to kiss but not with teeth lol.

I did laugh imagining Doc looking at you with an expression on his face when he sees you with the bottle.

 

[holtzchick]

Poor Doc! Funny about the spray bottle though!

I was going to suggest cutting the dates to be even shorter. The coordinator from the rescue here told me to start with literally 30 seconds IF that long and just do them a couple times a day even assuming the 30 seconds goes well, when you feel they are ready move on.

Be careful though, buns can hold a grudge. When I started to bond my buns, they had 2-3 negative experiences (I allowed her to nip him and vice versa assuming it wouldn't lead to a fight) and then held a grudge with each other. I've had them separated about a month and some ought since then so I don't think they care any more. The point is don't allow them to nip each other unless you see the other bunny doesn't care.

Anyways, yeah feel free to message me if you need anything

 

[agnesthelion]

Oh no I'm so sorry that the negative interactions have happened recently. If only we could speak rabbit and understand what goes through their minds!!

I agree with the advice Michelle as given you. Start with 30 second dates if you need to but do leave things on a good note. I know it's difficult and you didn't want anything else to happen an that's why you separated them but if you keep up with that then that literally trains them to remember negativity with the other bun and to bite and nip to end things

That's a bummer you left the latch undone but don't beat yourself up. I'm super careful about that too and I did the very same thing when I first brought Archie home. Nothing happened but I was like "how could youndo that!" haha, it happens.

You may just have to go really slow with these two kinda like Michelle is doing with her two. Lots of patience. The other alternative is a forced approach or fast track wear them down method. I'm not the biggest fan of those and feel that slower the better but follow your gut. You know your buns the best.

I also wanted to say that the tub never worked with my two. They both hated the slippery floor and instead of it working in favor and push them together they both were so tense and outmof sorts and gave up on it right away. So maybe the tub might not work.

It sounds odd but I've heard of people using trunks of cars. Or a closet that's been cleared out? I ended up blocking off a portion of the bathroom and that worked for me. Sometimes it's just about experimenting with what works best for your two.

I'm rooting for you! I always want bunny bonds to work. And even though I never had any problems I still know how stressful it can be so hang in there!!!

 

[Chrisdoc]

I´ve used the bathtub but always put a blanket in the bottom so they don´t slide all over the place and it seemed to work. If they weren´t getting on so well, I used to turn on the hair dryer which they didn´t like and used to snuggle together or turn on the water in the sink which they didn´t like either. After they´d snuggled for a couple of minutes, one usually started grooming the other. I suppose different things work for different bunnies.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Sounds pretty typical. Our first bunny, Commander Bun-Bun was the most alpha female ever. She'd attack anything and did not like sharing "her" room with any other bunny. She used to run around in her hutch if another bun was out to keep an eye on them--thought she'd have a stroke. Nik-Nik used to jump up on the table and sit outside Bun's hutch and just drive her nuts--one of us thought it was funny.

 

[lyndym]

Thank you everybody for the advice!

Chris - I giggled at "kissing with teeth." It sounds sweeter than how Rory is doing it, though! Dora would sometimes nibble me hello, which was surprising if I wasn't expecting it, bu didn't really hurt. And Doc's expression at my lame spray bottle is hilarious - sort of a mixture of disapproval and being unimpressed at my efforts. He is totally a huge softy, it's super cute but also makes me sad that he wants bunny lovin' so badly! I keep telling myself to have patience for his sake. I might try a blanket in my tub next time, or just section off part of my bathroom.. My tub is a combination tub/shower and has sliding doors, so half of the tub is blocked by the doors at all times. It'd just be hard for me to get to them quickly.

Michelle - This past failed date was probably under a minute. I actually spent most of that time trying to get them to notice each other, and it was right when Rory noticed Doc that she bit him. I have put Doc in his box next to her cage and pet them both, I guess this is sort of a short date? They've never nipped between bars, though Doc has put his nose in to say hello and I'll usually move him back so Rory's wild side isn't tempted to bite him. I almost started a message to you yesterday, but got distracted by something or was frustrated by my recent rabbit failures and didn't feel like writing them down again. You will be hearing from me soon!

Lisa - I so wish I could speak rabbit. Though, my non-rabbit friends totally think I am fluent.. I sometimes try and explain all this stuff going on in my rabbit world, and everyone is always surprised at how intricate rabbit psychology is! They are complex creatures, for sure. I laughed when you mentioned the trunk of a car because my mind jumped right to driving around with two rabbits loose in the trunk! The sectioned-off bathroom might be my best bet. Or maybe I could use part of our patio, it's noisier outside with traffic and everything, maybe that would help. I am trying to be patient, but at the same time I want to keep trying since there's not much going on between them otherwise. Giving it at least until the weekend for another attempt, though. Thank you for the positive energy! I am sure they will work it out, I am determined to get them to love each other!

Nancy - All that sounds intense! That's so funny about Nik-Nik, though, getting Commander Bun-Bun's goat like that. Aurora isn't quite that dominant, and she's never marked with poop at all, even though the whole place smelled like Doc when she first came home. She doesn't even chin a whole bunch when it's her turn in the living room. He was pooping everywhere for a week or so after Rory came home, and still chins up a storm during play time, but has no problem with her really. I'm just confused because the lady at the shelter who had her in foster care said she was the sweetest thing ever and never showed any signs of aggression. And she shared an area with two boys from a litter she had! Who knows.

 

[whitelop]

I would say to block off a part of your bathroom, since the tub seems a little awkward.
I don't know much about bonding, thats where Lisa, Michelle and Chris come in! They're your girls! hahaha.

I really hope everything works out with the bonding. I'm sure it will, but that has to be such a hard thing to try to do!
Rabbits are really complex. Its crazy. I try to explain them to my husband and my friends and they're like "...What?!" hahaha. Its one of those things you only get or care about when you have a bun to love! LOL

 

[lyndym]

Morgan, you are for sure right - only once you have a bun do you completely get it! Luke was kind of whatever about the whole rabbit idea, but I was obsessing about it, so he agreed to get them. Now he loves them and is pretty into it as well. He joked when he moved to San Diego that he should take one and I should have the other and the rabbits could join us in our long distance relationship. You're also right about Lisa, Michelle, and Chris, they have good advice! And I keep telling myself, "well, if Chris could get THREE BOYS to love each other, then my two should get it eventually!"

New plan of action - I'm going to buy a second ex-pen. Found one similar to the one I already have on Amazon for only $20, and I'm going to price check at the pet store when I pick up other things today. I figure Doc and Rory are only next to each other in their cages, and it's a whole different experience for them once they see the other one running around instead of eating or lounging. That was actually Doc and Dora's problem too - They would always end up fighting when in larger ares. I think they would "forget" about the other when there wasn't much action going on, but they'd be reminded once the other started running around. The way my apartment is set up doesn't allow for an easy extension of the play area to include their cage area, and I figure they'll be less frustrated if they are both out for run time at once. Plus, I won't have to keep dividing up play time. I'll just cut the living room in separate halves with the pens and have them trade sections each time they are out. Good thing my roommate is rarely home! Next week is our spring break, so I'll spend the week doing that and see how it goes. Okay, bonding optimism is back!

 

[lyndym]

Just made a photo dump on Facebook, thought I'd share some with you all as well.

Princess Aurora looking regal after a flop.

Doc knocked over his dig box and got bits of paper eeevvverrywhere. This is the guilty look I received.

Then he leaned in to give me a huge, heartfelt apology!

Queen of the cardboard castle. She loves it in there. At the beginning of every playtime, she'll hop on in and groom herself, then go crazy for awhile, then usually lounge around in there.

 

[whitelop]

Those pictures are so great! They are such good looking buns!
I love your giant grass ball thing. Its pretty awesome. Is it a bird toy/nest thing?

My favorite picture is the super close up of Doc. But Rory looks so pretty in her box.

 

[Chrisdoc]

I just love these two and Doc looks such a softy. Rory´s coat is a lovely colour, the more I see it the more I like it. Close up of Doc is great, love that nose.

 

[holtzchick]

Awh love the pictures! Silly Doc

Good luck with starting bonding, today is also the big day for me and my buns toooo

 

[Azerane]

Regarding the incident in the bathtub. I should think that you being in there with them was a bad thing, because Doc ended up on your lap to Rory it would have looked like you were siding with him and picking favourites. I would not join them next time and simply supervise.

Otherwise, love the images, they're such great looking bunns. Hope it starts to go better for you. One step at a time I suppose.

 

[agnesthelion]

The first picture of Aurora laying there like a queen is awesome! Her facial exporession and the way her body is positioned cracks me up! She thinks she rules the roost for sure she thinks she's a QUEEN not just a lowly princess. Hahahaha

 

[lyndym]

Morgan - Thank you, they are quite the cute soon-to-be couple! That grass ball has always been a hit with my rabbits. It comes with a little jingly ball inside, which startled Rory at first, but now she loves it. She was sticking her whole head into the hole she and Doc have been making in it yesterday!

Chris - The buns are flattered by your compliments! Doc is a big old softy, I've never used that word to describe him until you started to, but that's him in a nutshell. Sometimes I pick him up and walk around with him for extended cuddles, and he has no problem at all. Rory's coat is gorgeous, and she knows it. Right now I just took her out, and she's doing her pre-play time groom session. I guess she thinks she has to look pretty first!

Michelle - Best of luck to you as well! I'm going to hop on to your blog and see if you've updated with positive bonding progress! Fingers crossed for sure.

Azerane - I suppose I'll try again without myself getting in the way. I really feel like I need to be moderating though, so maybe going back to the small pen in a neutral area is a good idea.. We'll see how I'm feeling next time!

Lisa - Queen Aurora ruling the roost for sure! And she always looks like that after a flop. Doc flops ridiculously and sometimes remains in DBF position, but Rory does this dainty little flop and sits up like that every time.

Today marks four weeks since Aurora came home! Yesterday evening her foster mom, Joanne, called to follow up. I had emailed the main shelter lady a few weeks ago when all my bonding woes began, so Joanne wanted to see how things were going. She was surprised that Rory has been responding so negatively to Doc after how their dates went. She suggested car rides, but I am honestly nervous to even put them in the carrier together! Luke is visiting us this weekend, so maybe we can try something together. I do feel better with another pair of hands to help!

Side note, but Joanne assumed that Luke and I were married. We were driving when she called, and she asked how Aurora is with me and my "husband." After we hung up, I was like, "Ahhh do I look old enough for people to assume I'm married??" He pointed out that lots of people our age are married, but still. I told him you should be at least 30 for someone to assume you're married. Another side note, but we were on our way to the Magic Castle, which was amazing. Early birthday surprise for Luke! In case you're not familiar with what the Magic Castle is, it's an exclusive club that is "members only," so non-members have to receive an invitation from a member in order to get in. (My parents' neighbour is a member/magician.) You get all dressed up because there's a dress code, you eat dinner there, and see tons of magic shows! There were also magicians doing small shows around some of the bars, so we got to see some stuff close up and even participate in some tricks! I wish pictures were allowed inside because we looked great, and it's such a neat place. We never get super dressed up for dates, and Luke is generally a t-shirt and jeans guy, so it was really fun. Also you can't go wrong with lots of magic, lots of drinks, and fancy dinner! No rabbits were used in any of the acts.

 

[Chrisdoc]

Lyndy, he just looks like a softy and so reminds me of Snowy...he´s also a little cuddle bun and when you pick him up and walk around with him, he´s always giving you bunny kisses and loves being stroked and petted. Here´s a up close and personal of Snowy.

I love magic shows, did you know that my three boys are retired magician´s rabbits. They belonged to an ex and when he left as they were living with me and I was looking after them, I kept them...well, they definitely have a better life now. Would have loved to see you all dressed up, bet it was a fabulous night. And yes, over here, they still used rabbits in the magic acts.

 

[lyndym]

Ahhh, Snowy does remind me of Doc! A smaller version, of course, he looks like Doc did as a baby. It's so cute how we both get similar pictures of them, as if they're hopping up to say hello just to us.

This is Doc with Dora the day we brought them home. He sure has grown! How old is Snowy? I think Doc is just a big guy. Well, I've seen rabbits a lot larger than he is, but visitors are always surprised at how big he is.

And just because this photo always makes me laugh. I can't believe how much bigger than Dora he got! More than double her weight by their first birthday.

I did remember from your blog that your boys are retired magic buns! I actually told Luke about it while we were at the Magic Castle.

Aurora/bonding related question.. Every time it is Doc's turn out, she bites and claws at the bars of her cage, but not on the end facing the living room, on the end facing his empty cage. She doesn't really do this when he is in his cage. Is she jealous that he is out and she isn't? She does have a wooden toy hanging there now, maybe she's just repeatedly missing the toy and getting the cage, but she usually starts off attacking the bars and eventually gets to the toy. She doesn't do this when she's in the other cage and Doc is out. (I switch them every morning and evening.) Once again, it'd be nice to get into their heads and see what really goes on in there!