Dental Issues

[JBC]

Harely started having decreased "poop"output this past Wednesday ... he was still eating his pellets,lettuce, carrots and drinking water .... just very few "poops." My first concern was a hair mat developing again or perhaps gas. I started forcing fresh pineapple juice along with pumpkin once or twice a day. I decided to take him to see his vet on Friday morning, who said that she didn't think that his hair was the underlying problem, since all rabbits eat hair because of their grooming habits and that there had to be something else going on with him. She did a blood panel and radiographs. I haven't picked up the blood work, but the x-rays di show some gas pockets. She then took a look at his teeth ... surprise, first time in five years that she used a scope down in his mouth. She told me that see saw some "points" that were growing into his cheeks. She also told me that she felt that he hadn't been eating well for quite sometime. I was a liitle confused. like I said before he was still eating,just not pooping as much as normal. She advised me to contact another vet over in Walnut Creek or U.C. Davis ... Walnut Creek was closer ...Harley hates car trips. I called and make an appointment that same day for a consultation regarding his teeth. Poor baby, two car trips in one day!

Matt went with me to help out and for moral support. The doctor conducted an exam of him .... it was kind of weird, some of her questions, I mean .... like, "Does he feel sick?" I told her if she meant is acting differently, yes! he's not pooping like he normally does ... but he seems fine other than that. She also looked at his teeth and told us that there was a definite need to trim some of his teeth ... then she told us that he should have them done right away(that afternoon). So Matt and I left him there and went to find a snack some where until after his surgery.

There was any good news when we came back ... she told us that he hadsome infected bone sites around his lower teeth and that he might needto have three lower teeth removed and that we could schedule that surgery for Monday or Tuesday.

I'm not cheap when it comes to Harley, but I had already forked over $356 dollars earlier in the day to his regular vet and now I was looking at around $500 to $600 more dollars for the current work that had been done and another $800 or so next week. I took a deep breath and told her how much he meant to me, but that we just couldn't afford any more right now. I told her that if the VIP Insurance would help with some of the cost that maybe I could go forward with another surgery. She also explained that his teeth would probably be a chronic condition for the rest of his life. I asked her if there was a possiblity that we can do manage care at home for awhile. She said that was an option.

She sent us home with the following: Ringers (which I have had to get used to using on him). I don't like getting poked with needles and I don't like poking him with them; Buprenex; Cisapride Compounded;Chloramphenicol Compounded (which we exchanged for Baytril (safer, the other stuff is toxic to humans, causing anemia or worse) and Critical Care. I have a chart set up on the fridge, so that I know when and what I've given him. Dr. Lori gave us Metacam for pain, but Dr. Adams told us that it was hard on their kidneys, so I use it sparingly. I also remember something about using an Acidophilus product, so I am giving Harley some tablets, but today he wasn't interested in taking it ... I might have to force feed some yogurt down him.

I sometimes cry when I'm inserting that needle into skin fold (mainly because I feel like I'm hurting him, although he is very patient and stays calm during the whole ordeal) and after I've fed him countless doses of drugs if I'm really helping him. He is pooping more regularly and he seems perky and happy. He is eating his lettuce and Matt cuts up his carrots into smaller pieces, but I wonder if this is the life he wants ... you've been where I'm at right now (sort of) ... what do I do?

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

I know it's hard for you both. Just know that you are doing what you can. Keep giving him the meds! He doesn't even resist it? That's good! He must be a very loving bun.

I just lost a bun to Congestive Heart Failure and had to give a rabbit that didn't want to be held, meds by mouth, as it came down to.

Do the best you can. Even if you get some into him, is better than none.

 

[Just Jack]

As far as finacial costs go there are a couple of things that might help you.

First is Pet Insurance. http://www.petinsurance.com/
You can get a quote yourself but I think it should be around $12 a month and it will cover surgeries, illnesses, medication, and more. They pay 90% of the costs and there is just a $50deductible per event and you have to fill out a claim form.

Unfortunately this means you have to first pay out of pocket.However, out of poket expenses can be covered with CareCredit.http://carecredit.com/

CareCredit can be used with most (I'd say all but I can't be certain) vetinary care clinics. CareCredit is basicly a credit card though if you pay whatever charges you accumulate within 3 months you aren't charged any interest.

Read up on all of the information that you can on the website. This way you should only have to pay the cost of your insurance plan, $50 per event, and 10% of the vet costs which would hopefully be a lot more affordable.

I know it must be hard to have to give injections and constantly give him medications but just as a person can live a happy and fullfilling life while needing regular medical treatment (at the age of 25 I've had to start using a breathing machine to help me sleep at night cause of my sleep apnea) I imagine so can your rabbit. After awhile these things become routine and may be just another chance for you to bond with your bunny.

PS As I was rereading your post I noticed you said you have VIP insurance which I guess that may be VPI. But I'll leave the info that I posted there in case you or anyone else could use it.

 

[JBC]

Thanks for the info. Sorry, yes I do have VPI Insurance and I am hoping that they will help out with some of the costs. I just heard about Credit Care while I was at Dr. Adams's office. I have to wait until normal business hours when I can access and file an application online.

I hope that she will take him off some of the meds tomorrow ... I really hate the doing the ringers, although his such a brave and patient bun, I'm so afraid that I'm going to hurt him. He is drnking water on his own and eating tons of lettuce, so I really don't think he is dehydrated ... Thanks for your time advice.

 

[naturestee]

Moved to the Infirmary.

I'm so sorry you have to go through all this. At least it sounds like you have pretty good vets though. As for Harely,sometimes it amazes me how different rabbits can be. He's apparently been eating just fine even with major mouth problems (and I'm guessing the infection was an abscess, so watch out in case it comes back) while others like SAS's Pipp goes into "woe is me" mode with the tiniest little molar spur.

It sounds like he's taking this all in stride, so keep up with the medications and get the rest of the surgery done once you have your finances worked out. Care Credit really can be a lifesaver in cases like this.

You're not alone out there. Haley and Angieluv are also going through bunny dental problems right now. Talking with them might help you feel more comfortable with this.

FYI, if the infections do reoccur, talk to the vet about injectible Bicillin/penicillin. It's safe and is often used for jaw abscesses. It's a stronger antibiotic than Baytril and it's more effective because it's injected in or near the site of the infection, instead of being spread throught the whole body like oral antibiotics.

Keep us updated!

 

[Haley]

Im so sorry to hear about all your troubles!Harley sounds like such a strong little man though. Hes very brave for being so good through it all.

My Max just had an incisor removed (there was an abscess at the base).It cost me about $375 for the surgery and xrays andmeds. VPI paid about $150 after the deductable. Check your info packet to see what they will cover asfar as dental problems. Care credit can beveryuseful in combination with VPI. That way at least you have a way to pay up front and thenVPI can reimburse you later.

Sounds like you guys are doing great with managing everything for now. The pain meds are good, but as yousaid, can be hard on the kidneys. I make sure to give some extra fluid in a syringe when I givepain meds. Carrot juice works great forgetting them to get extra liquid down. Main thing is just to be surehe's eating properly for now. The critical care is good. Crushing up his pellets and mixing them with something yummy like canned pumpkin and adding some water can help too if you have to sryinge feed him.

Also, it might be worth it to call around and get someother prices from local rabbit-savvy yets. I dont know if you have many in the area, but its wortha shot. I was originally quoted between 600-800 for Max's surgery, but then my vet suggested we call around. Heended up finding someone who wasactuallymore qualified (and closer!)who quoted me between 400-600.Thatmakes abig difference when you dont have much money.

Keep us posted and let us know if theres anything we can do to help!

-Haley

 

[Offspring2099]

I just did our monthly budget for Sept. and Penny's bills came to, $1300. I also have VPI, but not sure how much they will help. Haley said that they only cover about $150 on absesses. But anyways, instead of that sitting on my credit card. I'm thinking about going and getting a personal loan at a Bank. That surely will have lower interest, maybe that's an option for you. Then you can make monthly payments.

 

[JBC]

Haley & Everyone,

Sorry I haven't been more chatty ... I've had my hands full with Harley. He seems to be hanging in there ... last night when I came home, he stood on his hind legs and was begging for food ... although Dr. Adams hasn't ok'd pellets yet, I couldn't take seeing him wanting to eat so badly. I placed a few in his dish and when nuts. He seems to fancy parsley right now, instead of romaine lettuce and he has eaten a carrot or two. I stopped doing the IV drips ... God help me I can't stand poking that needle under his skin, instead I have been making the Critical Care more watery, crushing up aAcidophilus tablet and mixing it with water and just using straight syringes of water down him. I read your earlier posting about Max and it has helped a great deal. I've seen the article about the use of bicillin instead of surgey. Alot to ponder ... gotta run.

Thanks for all your support,

Me and Harley "The Hairy Beast."

 

[naturestee]

Thanks for the update! I've been thinking of you and hoping you're both okay. It sounds like he's doing pretty good. Honestly if he wants pellets I'd let him have some. It's a good sign. Is he eating any hay yet? Sometimes it helps to cut it into smaller pieces.

 

[Haley]

yeah, I think the pellets are good if he will eat them. It might actually help to wear down those points on the molars. The pain meds must be working good if he will eat.

Keep us posted!

 

[JBC]

Hey Guys ... well, Harley seems to be improving more and more with each passing day. It's been an uphill battle with the vet that trimmed his teeth though. She was hard pressed for us to have his teeth pulled because of the abscess ... I tried to explain that it wasn't possible right now (financially) ...besides, her take on it was that even if we did go ahead with the surgery, his teeth would end up shifting and that would lead to other problems ... bottom line was that his condition would become chronic. I told her that I needed to see if VPI would help with the expenses. On Thursday, October 5 around 11:30 pm I sent her a fax stating that I was running out of some of the meds she had him on and could she call in are fill if she wanted him to remain on them. I also sent an article about a non-surgical procedure that I read about and what her take was on it. The next morning I called her office and her staff told she was booked, but they would place my fax on top of her files on her desk. I waited until about 4 pm that afternoon and called again ... I was told that she had looked at the fax and was working on it. I waited until 6pm before leaving my office (no one called back and they normally close at 6 pm). I drove over and the office was closed (only the cleaning crew was there). I was in tears all the way home. I had no idea what to do ... I went ahead and gave him what meds I had. The next morning(Saturday) I called around 9 am and was told that Dr. Adams was not in and that Harley's file was missing ... that she had probably taken it home with her and that she might call me over the weekend. I went off... I needed to know what I was going to do, that day .... the office is not open on Sunday. The staff paged her and Dr. Adams called me back on her cell phone. She began discussing the article that Ihad sent her about an alternative to surgery for Harley ... she wasn't happy that I was even considering not having the surgery for him. When we had initially taken Harley in and she had brought up the subject of another surgery, she had quoted me a rough estimate of $800 ... during our phone call that Saturday, she informed me that the surgery wouldc ost around $2,000. She told me that she would call her staff at the office and have Harley's meds refilled. My husband was in the area and said that he would pick them up for me. I told him that the cost would be under $200 around $188 or so. When he came home and showed me the invoice, I was shocked, not only did they send home items that I didn't need, but one of the meds that she had placed him on (Baytrill) had went up in price from $108 to $156.25. I called the office and questioned the staff as to why the same amount and type of medication had jumped up in price ... they told me that I had initially received an discount and that this was the true price. When we first took Harley in to have a consultation (which ended up in his teeth actually being trimmed) Dr. Adams had placed him on an antibiotic (which I later found was extremely toxic to humans). It cost $60. I took it back and requested that he be placed on Baytrill ... Dr. Adams had told me that the Baytrill would run around $88 ... so I figured I owed them $28 more for the exchange. They told me that the Baytrill cost$108 so that is what I paid.

Not only have I been stressed by what my baby is going through, but these people have added more stress on me. I took all the items with the exception of the "gut motility and pain medicine" back to Dr. Adams office. I asked for all records that they had maintained during the short time that he had been seen there. I asked Dr. Adams for prescriptions for all of Harley's meds (including the Baytrill). One good thing came out of all this mess and that was one of the staff who gave me a name and number for a specialize pharmacy that makes the meds that Harley is taking. When I called them and asked how much it would cost for his Baytrill ... they informed me that it would be $45 ....big difference from $156.25. They even flavor it to their favorite food... his is flavored with banana.

I received a letter from Dr. Adams office on Wednesday (this past week)stating that Harley and I were no longer welcome in her office and that I should seek out another vet. She noted that a good relationship between a vet and a client stems from confidence and trust between the two ... my question was, how can I have any confidence in a vet who isn't consistent with info or prices, etc.? One that you have to track down.

Quite frankly, I had already decided that I wasn't going back to see her ... I know that there are other vets out there that are more rabbit savvy and who have more compassion for their clients.

Harley is back on his regular routine with his meals. I give him a dose of banana-flavored Baytrill before bedtime. I an having to force feed water down him ... he doesn't seem to drink any out of his bowl ... any advice as to how I might get to start drinking out of his bowl again? He is eating his hay (a little) ... I bought him some timothy hay cubes from PetCo ... he really loves them. I even bought him his own basil plant ... he loves the stuff.

Thanks again for any and all help you guys can give. I'm glad I can come here and get help when all else falls by the way.

Joyce & Harley

 

[the bunny girl]

Hi my rabbit is having the same problems as yours at the moment . He has been in to the vets and had spurrs burred down on his back teeth , the vet found an abcess on his lower jaw where it looks like the tooth has fallen out they cleaned this out and put him on a course of baytril and metacam . It has been a few weeks now and he had a checkup at the vets the abcess has cleared up butanother tooth isslack on the other side of his jaw , he eats some food but not a lot and if he does not pick up soon then i will have to put him to sleep

 

[Haley]

Oh Im sorry to hear you are having so much trouble!

It sounds like this vet might be giving you the run around. Its possible that she doesnt know what shes doing but wont admit it. I also cant believe Baytril is that expensive! My vet gives me a month supply for about 15.00. Im glad you are able to order from the manufacturer. That will save a lot of money. What I would do if I wereyou would be to get things in writing, especially when they give you estimates.

I dont know if we've discussed this before, but have you checed our rabbit savvy vet list to see if theres anyone in your area? Did you ever check into Care Credit to see if you could get help with these costs? I know how daunting it can be.

With regards to the water, have you tried having a bottle and a bowl out? That way she has a few options in case she has trouble with one?Adding a little vanilla to the water may help encourage her to drink as well.

Thats about all I can think of right now. I'll be praying for your little one. I do know that these abscesses can get pretty nasty. I think its great that you're keeping up with things at home, but I would really look into alternative methods of payment so you can gether the careshe needs. Maybe another vet will be cheaper, its worth looking into.

Best wishes

Haley

 

[Offspring2099]

the bunny girl wrote:

Hi my rabbit is having the same problems as yours at the moment . He has been in to the vets and had spurrs burred down on his back teeth , the vet found an abcess on his lower jaw where it looks like the tooth has fallen out they cleaned this out and put him on a course of baytril and metacam . It has been a few weeks now and he had a checkup at the vets the abcess has cleared up butanother tooth isslack on the other side of his jaw , he eats some food but not a lot and if he does not pick up soon then i will have to put him to sleep

Bunny girl,

Try vitamin B6 to stimulate appitite. We crushed the pills and syranged it with pedialyte to our Penny, that seemed to revive her appitate loss, which is wicket when she is on bicillin.

 

[Offspring2099]

JBC,

When looking for next bunny vet, ask them if they know about bicillin. If your bun can't kick the abseses, this might be a good option.

 

[Joy2006]

When my rabbit Nala needs her back teeth trimmed her Vet (one of the few I trust) never uses any anethesia.I know each rabbit is different...but I guess i'm scared of my bunnies having to go to sleep since I lost my little Mufasa while she was being spayed. I think ALL Vets should "try" first with the smaller tasks (teeth,grooming) to do it WITHOUT anethesia!Just my opinion!That Vet was trying to sqeeze you dry!!!NO WAY does Baytril cost that much...that's insane!Good luck to you,hubby and especially your bunny!

 

[naturestee]

What a horrible vet! And talk about lining her own pocket! No way is Baytril that expensive and Ibet the other meds should have cost less than half the price too. Please let us know if the vet is on our rabbit savvy vet listings, because I think she should be taken off.:X

Personally, I think a good client-vet relationship is where they both listen to each other and have mutual respect. Respect has to be earned.

Have you found another vet? If you don't mind posting, what area are you in? Maybe we can help you find someone that's actually willing to help her clients.

I like Haley's suggestions for encouraging Harley to drink.You could also use a little flavored Pedialyte, unsweetened apple juice, or carrot juice mixed in the water to tempt him to drink. Wet veggies and canned pumpkin are another way to get more water into him.

:hug2:

 

[JBC]

I actually looked at the article that someone had posted regarding bicillin ... it's the article that I gave Dr.Adams ... the one that she wasn't happy with. I'm not against surgery, but if there is an alternative, I feel that it's worth checking into. I feel about Harley the same way I feel about my own personal health .... just because a doctor tells you it's his/her way or nothing doesn't mean that you can't consult or even change doctors if need be. I'm not a doctor and so I have to rely on them to some extent, but I also live with this body of mine and know it a little better than they do. Sometimes you just have to go with your own gut feelings about things ... example, when Harley was begging at his play yard fence ... I just knew that he was hungry and not for critical care, he needed his normal diet which consisted of his timothy pellets.Dr. Adams slammed me when I told her that I had started giving him a few pellets along with the critical care ... it can be so frustrating when you have to rely on others (vets in general) ... I'm hoping we can find our match ... vet with bun and vet with mom.

 

[JBC]

Northern California (between Oakland and Stockton). Her name is Dr. Ruth Adams ... she is with VCA Hospitals (her clinic is located in Walnut Creek on Boulevard Way).

I think I might have another vet for Harley that does more work with rabbits (especially dental) and located a little closer to home in Concord.

Thanks for the tip about his water ...

Joyce & Harley (aka "basil bun") LOL

 

[JBC]

I submitted an online application for CareCredit. They told me to print out a number and call an 1-800 number ...I did and was instructed that I would receive a letter in about 10 days regarding my application. I got the letter this weekend stating that they needed more info (something about a phone bill ???). I haven't had a chance to sent it back with the requested bill yet. Also, when I applied they asked what vet I wished to use the card for and at the time I was seeing Dr. Adams, so I put her name on the application ...do you know if you can change from one vet to another one. I'm assuming that they have to accept care credit too ...

Joyce