dark poops?

[pumpkinbumpkin]

hello! i wasn't sure which forum to put this in so i'm doing it here. i just had a question about pumpkins poop. it's a very dark color, and i've read that this could mean she needs diet changes? i'll give some info on her in case that helps at all.

last month she was weighed at the vet and was 3.6 pounds, but it looks like she's gained some weight since then. she's a little over 1 year old. she usually gets unlimited timothy meadow hay daily along with 1 tablespoon pellets and about 1/1.5 cups of romaine/red leaf lettuce, and i recently started giving her bits of cilantro (she seems to do fine with it).

for the last week or so i've reduced her pellets to 2 teaspoons a day, and i've started giving her only 1 cup of veggies. she's been eating much more hay, but her poop is still the same color. should i reduce her veggies to only half a cup a day for a few days or is that too much?

i just recently realized that oxbow sells timothy meadow hay AND western timothy hay. i've been giving her timothy meadow, what's the difference between those two? should i be giving her western timothy instead?

here's a picture:

 

[dogwoodblossoms]

I notice that when my bunnies get more veggies they tend to have darker poops. Typically, their poops are supposed to be drier. Just make sure she doesn't have extra cecotropes that means she's getting to much protein, sugar, or calcium.
I think the only difference between the hays is where it's grown.
What kind of pellets do you have her on? Lettuce is something like 95% water and from a quick Google search it has 5 grams of fiber and 5 of grams protein in it per cup. So, just because it's so low in both I would suggest getting a feed with 16% protein, to make sure she is getting enough nurturance. I am typically more for using pellets so at least keep her a 1 tbsp and don't lower it. You don't want a build up in her gut because she's getting to much of something.
Edit: Red lettuce has 1.1 grams of protein per 3/8 cups and 0.08 grams per 3/8 cups.

 

[dogwoodblossoms]

I also would highly recommend reading this article Rabbit Nutrition – Specialised Animal Nutrition Pty Ltd

 

[pumpkinbumpkin]

I notice that when my bunnies get more veggies they tend to have darker poops. Typically, their poops are supposed to be drier. Just make sure she doesn't have extra cecotropes that means she's getting to much protein, sugar, or calcium.
I think the only difference between the hays is where it's grown.
What kind of pellets do you have her on? Lettuce is something like 95% water and from a quick Google search it has 5 grams of fiber and 5 of grams protein in it per cup. So, just because it's so low in both I would suggest getting a feed with 16% protein, to make sure she is getting enough nurturance. I am typically more for using pellets so at least keep her a 1 tbsp and don't lower it. You don't want a build up in her gut because she's getting to much of something.
Edit: Red lettuce has 1.1 grams of protein per 3/8 cups and 0.08 grams per 3/8 cups.

thank you! i will start giving her 1 tablespoon daily again. she gets the oxbow essentials adult rabbit pellets. the bag says it has 14% protein. i'll look into that and see if this is a good brand or if i should switch.

i dont think she's making too many cecotropes, 2 or 3 times i've noticed her leaving one in her litterbox but once she realizes it's there she eats it.

thanks for that article, it was very helpful

 

[dogwoodblossoms]

thank you! i will start giving her 1 tablespoon daily again. she gets the oxbow essentials adult rabbit pellets. the bag says it has 14% protein. i'll look into that and see if this is a good brand or if i should switch.

i dont think she's making too many cecotropes, 2 or 3 times i've noticed her leaving one in her litterbox but once she realizes it's there she eats it.

thanks for that article, it was very helpful

I actually love the Oxbow brand if it only had more protein in it! I'm actually switching over to Poulin Grain and was thinking about mixing a 5-10 lbs. bag of Oxbow Adult Essential into the 50 lbs. of Poulin Grain because it has a nice amount of fiber in it. (according to the World Rabbit Science Association rabbit need a min. of 16.50% fiber and a max of 25%). For some context on her protein according to WRSA Excel sheet they need a min. of 16% and a max. of 19%. So, I think with a slight increase in the percentage of protein in her food, her veggies, and the protein in her hay will be the perfect percentage. Just watch her weight, Pumpkin seems to be a Lionhead/Lionhead Mix? Lionheads average 2.5-3.5 lbs. so she is the perfect weight. She might be a false dwarf so if she starts to gain a little weight on 16% feed don't worry, as long as she isn't pudgy and has a firm stomach and not a flabby one. I have Netherland Dwarfs which are 2.5-3 lbs. and my biggest one averages 3.8 lbs. and is perfectly healthy.
Feel free to ask anymore questions if you have any, I am happy to help

 

[Blue eyes]

No, no, no. The higher protein percentages are for breeding rabbits. Indoor pet rabbits and spayed rabbits should have closer to 12% protein (and no more than 14%). The higher protein percentages are too rich for a non-breeding rabbit.

See here:
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/a-proper-diet-for-pet-rabbits.101066/

 

[JBun]

Darker poop doesn't necessarily indicate a proplem if the size and consistency of the poop is normal. Darker poop can occur from more protein in the diet due to a leafier higher protein hay, or more protein from pellets.

Is the hay you're feeding a softer grass hay with mostly the soft leafy stems, and not a lot of hard crunchy stems? Have you been able to verify that she's eating the hay really well, and eating a pile of hay that is at least the size of her body, per day? Do the fecal balls seem to be too small or are they a good size in relation to the size of your rabbit? When you smoosh one of the fecal balls, does it crumble easily or does it seem dry and hard?

This link helps explain the different cuts of hay and the related protein levels.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Hay

 

[dogwoodblossoms]

No, no, no. The higher protein percentages are for breeding rabbits. Indoor pet rabbits and spayed rabbits should have closer to 12% protein (and no more than 14%). The higher protein percentages are too rich for a non-breeding rabbit.

See here:
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/a-proper-diet-for-pet-rabbits.101066/

Darker poop doesn't necessarily indicate a proplem if the size and consistency of the poop is normal. Darker poop can occur from more protein in the diet due to a leafier higher protein hay, or more protein from pellets.

Is the hay you're feeding a softer grass hay with mostly the soft leafy stems, and not a lot of hard crunchy stems? Have you been able to verify that she's eating the hay really well, and eating a pile of hay that is at least the size of her body, per day? Do the fecal balls seem to be too small or are they a good size in relation to the size of your rabbit? When you smoosh one of the fecal balls, does it crumble easily or does it seem dry and hard?

This link helps explain the different cuts of hay and the related protein levels.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Hay

I guess I can agree with the poop analyze, but for all rabbits in my experience will get extra cecotrope if they are getting to much of something. I also want to bring to light that if your only feeding your rabbit a fourth to a half of what the feeding instructions suggest, your rabbit isn't really getting the full percentage of protein that the pellets carry. I looked at the Oxbow Adult Essential and the feeding size is an 1/8 cup for over a year old rabbit. The back of the Oxbow bag even has a chart on how much of each food a rabbit should have, 70% hay, 20% fortified food, 8% greens, and 2% treats.
Sure, maybe a pet rabbit needs lower protein food, but if your feeding such a small amount you really need to be making sure the rabbit is getting all he/she needs and that doesn't just include protein, that includes fiber and vitamins. If you aren't feeding the recommended amount your not going to get the same result that you would with the recommended feeding size. I have nothing against feeding more wet/fresh foods, I just believe that she needs a little more pellets to even out the vegetables, which are considered rich to the rabbit.
Below I am attaching the chart I feed my rabbits by, it is by World Rabbit Science Association you need to open the Excel spreadsheet in order to access it. It is very helpful and is set in for the maintenance of a rabbit. Untitled Document

 

[pumpkinbumpkin]

Darker poop doesn't necessarily indicate a proplem if the size and consistency of the poop is normal. Darker poop can occur from more protein in the diet due to a leafier higher protein hay, or more protein from pellets.

Is the hay you're feeding a softer grass hay with mostly the soft leafy stems, and not a lot of hard crunchy stems? Have you been able to verify that she's eating the hay really well, and eating a pile of hay that is at least the size of her body, per day? Do the fecal balls seem to be too small or are they a good size in relation to the size of your rabbit? When you smoosh one of the fecal balls, does it crumble easily or does it seem dry and hard?

This link helps explain the different cuts of hay and the related protein levels.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Hay

the quality of the hay varies a little with each bag, but it's very soft, there aren't many hard pieces at all. it is pretty dusty though. oxbow is the only brand i can get at tractor supply here, but i may switch brands if i can find a better quality one. she's definitely eating lots of hay, i refill it multiple times a day. i also give her a few piles near her resting places to encourage her to eat more.

the size seems pretty normal compared to her. it crumbles easily, not hard at all. inside it's a lighter color and you can see little pieces of hay. i think i forgot to mention this in my original post, but it is also more moist than it used to be.

 

[pumpkinbumpkin]

hello! i wasn't sure which forum to put this in so i'm doing it here. i just had a question about pumpkins poop. it's a very dark color, and i've read that this could mean she needs diet changes? i'll give some info on her in case that helps at all.

last month she was weighed at the vet and was 3.6 pounds, but it looks like she's gained some weight since then. she's a little over 1 year old. she usually gets unlimited timothy meadow hay daily along with 1 tablespoon pellets and about 1/1.5 cups of romaine/red leaf lettuce, and i recently started giving her bits of cilantro (she seems to do fine with it).

for the last week or so i've reduced her pellets to 2 teaspoons a day, and i've started giving her only 1 cup of veggies. she's been eating much more hay, but her poop is still the same color. should i reduce her veggies to only half a cup a day for a few days or is that too much?

i just recently realized that oxbow sells timothy meadow hay AND western timothy hay. i've been giving her timothy meadow, what's the difference between those two? should i be giving her western timothy instead?

here's a picture:

View attachment 60211

just a little update, the tractor supply near me only has the oxbow simply harvest pellets and i checked the protein and it's 12%. so, since it's already easier for me to get rather than the oxbow essentials, i'm going to research it a bit more and i might switch her over to that and see if she does okay with it. thank you all so much for the help!

 

[dogwoodblossoms]

just a little update, the tractor supply near me only has the oxbow simply harvest pellets and i checked the protein and it's 12%. so, since it's already easier for me to get rather than the oxbow essentials, i'm going to research it a bit more and i might switch her over to that and see if she does okay with it. thank you all so much for the help!

Sounds good! I actually really like the Oxbow brand. And difference of opinion is a-okay. Best of luck to cute little Pumpkin!

 

[Blue eyes]

@dogwoodblossoms The WRSA is an organization for "the rabbit industry" (ie. meat production). Diet recommendations vary between indoor, spayed pet rabbits and breeding rabbits. They have different nutritional requirements. That is why The House Rabbit Society, and other pet-focused rabbit groups recommend lower protein percentages. This is based on years of experience accumulated by rabbit vets and scientists in the pet rabbit world.

Pellets, moreso than greens, are a food that is considered "rich" to rabbits -- that's why they should be limited -- the higher the protein, the richer they are. The higher percentages are appropriate for breeding rabbits.

There is a very good article on HRS site about the animal fat and protein myth.
https://rabbit.org/natural-nutrition-part-ii-pellets-and-veggies-2/
Here are some excerpts:

"Since pellets are manufactured and marketed primarily for breeders, and since most breeder rabbits are subject to more stress than house rabbits, many brands of pellets are labeled as “performance” feeds. These brands contain a high level of protein (16-22%), which is probably necessary to keep alive a rabbit who lives in an environment without climate control, is bred as often as possible, or is nursing most of the time. Physical, environmental, and psychological stresses require high energy levels for survival.

A healthier protein percentage for spayed or neutered house rabbits is approximately 12-14%, a level at which it is possible to find pellet brands that contain no animal fat and list at least some actual ingredients on their labels.

After all, pellets were developed for breeders as a concentrated source of nutrients. They contain all the vitamins and minerals a rabbit requires in a palatable form that keeps for many weeks, is easy to feed, and is (compared to dog or cat food) extremely inexpensive.

The highly concentrated nature of pellets ensures that rabbits gain weight quickly, important for many breeders since those rabbits not bred are often slaughtered for meat by the age of 16 weeks. (UFAW Handbook 1987, 426).

Clearly, when “production” is the goal there is considerable pressure for weight gain and maintenance, and very little concern with geriatric matters. Needless to say, no house rabbit lives under these conditions. Most are spayed or neutered, live indoors with minimal environmental stress, and can expect to make it to six to twelve years of age. In these rabbits, the concentrated nature of pellets can lead to obesity and its attendant medical problems.

In feeding trials in which pelleted feed was reduced to 50% of normal intake and the diet was supplemented with greens, young rabbits maintained normal growth. When the amount of pellets was reduced to below 50% of “normal,” growth rate declined (Pote et al 1980). These studies indicate that even young, unaltered rabbits do well on a reduced pellet diet. Since most of our house rabbits need to lose weight rather than gain, reducing pellets below 50% should not affect spayed or neutered adults adversely.

Once pellets have been reduced, it is equally important to make sure that fresh grass hay is available to the rabbit at all times, and that fresh vegetables be given in larger amounts than has previously been recommended (up to 2-4 cups a day). Actually, because of the problems usually associated with the overfeeding of pellets, some rabbits do better if they receive no pellets at all. Instead, they eat several cups of fresh veggies a day and all the grass hay they want. Other rabbits still eat pellets, but receive significantly less than the *above amounts, with a corresponding increase in the amount of vegetables offered. "

* 'above amounts' refers to:

5-7 lb of body wt. 1/4 cup daily

8-10 lb body wt. 1/2 cup daily

11-15 lb of body wt. 3/4 cup daily

 

[JBun]

the quality of the hay varies a little with each bag, but it's very soft, there aren't many hard pieces at all. it is pretty dusty though. oxbow is the only brand i can get at tractor supply here, but i may switch brands if i can find a better quality one. she's definitely eating lots of hay, i refill it multiple times a day. i also give her a few piles near her resting places to encourage her to eat more.

the size seems pretty normal compared to her. it crumbles easily, not hard at all. inside it's a lighter color and you can see little pieces of hay. i think i forgot to mention this in my original post, but it is also more moist than it used to be.

I would suspect the softer higher protein hay is the cause of the darker poops then. The leafier hay can also make the fecal balls more moist than they would be with a rougher more fibrous hay. That's pretty normal, and isn't a problem unless the poops are too small and dense, your rabbit is showing signs of slow gut(pre GI stasis), and/or if your rabbit is gaining too much weight on the higher protein leafier hay.

If they have the plain timothy, you could try that out and see if it makes any difference. You can also see if they have any baled horse quality grass hay that looks to be good, and try that. Baled hay will also be much much cheaper. Tractor Supply uusually carries Standlee timothy bales, though you would need to look at the bale to see if it looks good or not. The quality can sometimes vary with their hay being crumbly and dusty, the cut of hay can vary as well(eg. coarse, mix of leaf and stem-which is what I prefer, or very soft and leafy). I would stick with the premium(purple band) and not the certified(yellow band). I've never had luck with my rabbits liking the certified/yellow band.

Or there is ordering hay online. Amazon has some options, though I can't say anything about the quality(depends on the hay company). There's also Chewy and other onlne pet supply companies. Or there are rabbit specific supply companies. I know some members here like Small pet select, which has the benefit of being able to order the specific cut of hay you want. Rabbit hole is another one. So there are some other options available.

In regards to the pellets, if you do switch types, make sure to do a gradual transition over a couple weeks minimum. This gives a rabbits digestive flora the time it needs to adapt to the new food.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/pellet-food.html
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Pellets

 

[dogwoodblossoms]

@dogwoodblossoms The WRSA is an organization for "the rabbit industry" (ie. meat production). Diet recommendations vary between indoor, spayed pet rabbits and breeding rabbits. They have different nutritional requirements. That is why The House Rabbit Society, and other pet-focused rabbit groups recommend lower protein percentages. This is based on years of experience accumulated by rabbit vets and scientists in the pet rabbit world.

Pellets, moreso than greens, are a food that is considered "rich" to rabbits -- that's why they should be limited -- the higher the protein, the richer they are. The higher percentages are appropriate for breeding rabbits.

There is a very good article on HRS site about the animal fat and protein myth.
https://rabbit.org/natural-nutrition-part-ii-pellets-and-veggies-2/
Here are some excerpts:

"Since pellets are manufactured and marketed primarily for breeders, and since most breeder rabbits are subject to more stress than house rabbits, many brands of pellets are labeled as “performance” feeds. These brands contain a high level of protein (16-22%), which is probably necessary to keep alive a rabbit who lives in an environment without climate control, is bred as often as possible, or is nursing most of the time. Physical, environmental, and psychological stresses require high energy levels for survival.

A healthier protein percentage for spayed or neutered house rabbits is approximately 12-14%, a level at which it is possible to find pellet brands that contain no animal fat and list at least some actual ingredients on their labels.

After all, pellets were developed for breeders as a concentrated source of nutrients. They contain all the vitamins and minerals a rabbit requires in a palatable form that keeps for many weeks, is easy to feed, and is (compared to dog or cat food) extremely inexpensive.

The highly concentrated nature of pellets ensures that rabbits gain weight quickly, important for many breeders since those rabbits not bred are often slaughtered for meat by the age of 16 weeks. (UFAW Handbook 1987, 426).

Clearly, when “production” is the goal there is considerable pressure for weight gain and maintenance, and very little concern with geriatric matters. Needless to say, no house rabbit lives under these conditions. Most are spayed or neutered, live indoors with minimal environmental stress, and can expect to make it to six to twelve years of age. In these rabbits, the concentrated nature of pellets can lead to obesity and its attendant medical problems.

In feeding trials in which pelleted feed was reduced to 50% of normal intake and the diet was supplemented with greens, young rabbits maintained normal growth. When the amount of pellets was reduced to below 50% of “normal,” growth rate declined (Pote et al 1980). These studies indicate that even young, unaltered rabbits do well on a reduced pellet diet. Since most of our house rabbits need to lose weight rather than gain, reducing pellets below 50% should not affect spayed or neutered adults adversely.

Once pellets have been reduced, it is equally important to make sure that fresh grass hay is available to the rabbit at all times, and that fresh vegetables be given in larger amounts than has previously been recommended (up to 2-4 cups a day). Actually, because of the problems usually associated with the overfeeding of pellets, some rabbits do better if they receive no pellets at all. Instead, they eat several cups of fresh veggies a day and all the grass hay they want. Other rabbits still eat pellets, but receive significantly less than the *above amounts, with a corresponding increase in the amount of vegetables offered. "

* 'above amounts' refers to:

5-7 lb of body wt. 1/4 cup daily

8-10 lb body wt. 1/2 cup daily

11-15 lb of body wt. 3/4 cup daily

I am willing to take the fact that house rabbits don't need "as much" protein as a "breeding rabbit" but I can tell you I have pet rabbits on the same diet that is as healthy as any rabbit. And as I pointed out, rabbits need the correct bag instructed feeding amount to get the amount of protein of in the pellets thus my reasoning for higher protein food. And all good breeders only breed their rabbits as they can handle. Rabbits can produce a lot and still be healthy, you act like breeders are evil. I can tell you only first time moms (or moms who are having babies with you for the first time) are stressed unless they are thrust into an actual stressful situation (getting chased by a dog or falling from a high height). It really hard to balance the correct amounts of fresh foods for your rabbits, I tried this winter when I had no babies or pregnant rabbits (I hadn't had a litter since October). My rabbits where getting sick and having too much cecotropes even though I slowly moved them onto the fresh foods. I just want to inform you that the science in your cited work is from the 80s and 90s. Nothing in the past 20 years. Also, I see no amount for rabbits under 4 lbs. on your rabbits on your sited work.
Anyways, I am not going to argue about this anymore. It doesn't matter, it's a difference of opinion and life style and at this point and I am willing to except that.

 

[Blue eyes]

I am willing to take the fact that house rabbits don't need "as much" protein as a "breeding rabbit" but I can tell you I have pet rabbits on the same diet that is as healthy as any rabbit. And as I pointed out, rabbits need the correct bag instructed feeding amount to get the amount of protein of in the pellets thus my reasoning for higher protein food. And all good breeders only breed their rabbits as they can handle. Rabbits can produce a lot and still be healthy, you act like breeders are evil. I can tell you only first time moms (or moms who are having babies with you for the first time) are stressed unless they are thrust into an actual stressful situation (getting chased by a dog or falling from a high height). It really hard to balance the correct amounts of fresh foods for your rabbits, I tried this winter when I had no babies or pregnant rabbits (I hadn't had a litter since October). My rabbits where getting sick and having too much cecotropes even though I slowly moved them onto the fresh foods. I just want to inform you that the science in your cited work is from the 80s and 90s. Nothing in the past 20 years. Also, I see no amount for rabbits under 4 lbs. on your rabbits on your sited work.
Anyways, I am not going to argue about this anymore. It doesn't matter, it's a difference of opinion and life style and at this point and I am willing to except that.

That's fine. I understand people can choose to feed their rabbits according to whatever resource they deem acceptable. (I certainly don't think breeders are evil. ☺ )

The article actually does address smaller rabbits in the body of the article.
There is evidence that small breeds (under 2 lbs) may require a diet higher in energy and lower in fiber than the larger breeds (Cheeke 1987, 324). Several foster homes have experienced digestive problems in rabbits under 4 lbs who were put on severely restricted diets.

Regarding the protein percentage, one doesn't need to feed a certain amount to get the stated percentage. It is a percentage. That means that whether a rabbit eats a tablespoon or a measuring cup, he is getting that stated percentage of protein.

I can't explain why your rabbits had issues with being fed greens. That would be a whole other discussion. I've not had a single rabbit that had any difficulties with greens (in over 30 years). But just as some rabbits are unable to handle too many (or any) greens, some rabbits are unable to handle too many (or any) pellets. We just have to figure out what seems to work best for the rabbits we have.