Corn and soyabean

[Shanan]

Hi. I have two 1 month old babies. I wanted to introduce them to pellets but not many rabbit Food brands are available here. The best available to us is Vitakraft Sunseed Sunbasics Rabbits. But it has corn and soyabean . I am enclosing the picture of the ingredients and nutritional info. Please tell me whether it's okay to feed them this. Thanks.

 

[Preitler]

Is that 18% protein?

Well, it sounds very rich, imho could be a good food for growing meat rabbits fast. Also, with meat rabbits, corn isn't such a problem since there's no worry about long term liver issues.

If you feed it to a normal pet rabbit I would only give small amounts, like 1/2 or 1/3 of that that is commonly referred to hay based pellets. Growing rabbits can do with rich stuff, but in my opinion the stuff that makes them grow fastest isn't the best, besides aforementioned case.

Have you any oportunity to introduce them to forage (that's what I do)? Means, access to untreated green grass and weeds, and no wild rabbit population close (unfortunatly, the number of deseases keeps growing)
A good booster for kits is plain kitchen oatmeal, better composition than corn.

Then there is the thing with corn, it may be overblown by internet dynamics (one says BAD, thousands copy and repeat). The thing seems to be that it depends if each lot is checked for mycotoxins since it molds very easily and badly (sometimes still on the stalks in wet weather, or when not dried properly, stored damp etc.) which can't be noticed when harvested and processed. I reckon that's more a theoretical point since although it's possible, as far as I know it doesn't happen regulary, and is less an issue when big quantitys are processed, compared to growing corn in the backyard where microclimate and weather can spoil the whole harvest. Anyway, as far as I know , good food mills screen for it.

Anyway, imho pet rabbits do not need this calories anyway.

I'm no eypert on pellets, I must say, I feed very little of it, but I wonder if that's the best.

With one month, I would just feed what their mother gets. They already got the right bacteria to digest that. Food chinges around weaning are imho not a great idea.

Note that I use "imho" and "my opinion a lot", not without reason , do read a lot of different stuff, and not the things repeated most are actually true...

 

[Shanan]

Is that 18% protein?

Well, it sounds very rich, imho could be a good food for growing meat rabbits fast. Also, with meat rabbits, corn isn't such a problem since there's no worry about long term liver issues.

If you feed it to a normal pet rabbit I would only give small amounts, like 1/2 or 1/3 of that that is commonly referred to hay based pellets. Growing rabbits can do with rich stuff, but in my opinion the stuff that makes them grow fastest isn't the best, besides aforementioned case.

Have you any oportunity to introduce them to forage (that's what I do)? Means, access to untreated green grass and weeds, and no wild rabbit population close (unfortunatly, the number of deseases keeps growing)
A good booster for kits is plain kitchen oatmeal, better composition than corn.

Then there is the thing with corn, it may be overblown by internet dynamics (one says BAD, thousands copy and repeat). The thing seems to be that it depends if each lot is checked for mycotoxins since it molds very easily and badly (sometimes still on the stalks in wet weather, or when not dried properly, stored damp etc.) which can't be noticed when harvested and processed. I reckon that's more a theoretical point since although it's possible, as far as I know it doesn't happen regulary, and is less an issue when big quantitys are processed, compared to growing corn in the backyard where microclimate and weather can spoil the whole harvest. Anyway, as far as I know , good food mills screen for it.

Anyway, imho pet rabbits do not need this calories anyway.

I'm no eypert on pellets, I must say, I feed very little of it, but I wonder if that's the best.

With one month, I would just feed what their mother gets. They already got the right bacteria to digest that. Food chinges around weaning are imho not a great idea.

Note that I use "imho" and "my opinion a lot", not without reason , do read a lot of different stuff, and not the things repeated most are actually true...

Thank you so much for this info. Yes 18% protein. I was trying to feed them fresh grass and veggies. One of them feeds enough. The other I think is not getting enough nutrition. It's a bit weak. that's why I wanted to try pelleted food for one time. They are pet rabbits and so are very close to my heart, can't afford to see them growing weak.

 

[Preitler]

You know, whatever changes you make in their diet - espacially greens if they are not used to them, do that very,very slowly. That young, I wouldn't change much, and not introduce new stuff that isn't easy on the stomach, so, I would refrain from greens and veggies for the next 4 weeks, and feed whatever the doe gets.
And start with rather safe greens, like plaintain.

What do they get now (and mom)?

As I said, kitchen oatmeal is very easy to digest, and a good booster for kits. That's something you can offer from start, but also intrudce it over several days, you can dampen it for a start.
Does the doe still nurse them?

 

[Shanan]

You know, whatever changes you make in their diet - espacially greens if they are not used to them, do that very,very slowly. That young, I wouldn't change much, and not introduce new stuff that isn't easy on the stomach, so, I would refrain from greens and veggies for the next 4 weeks, and feed whatever the doe gets.
And start with rather safe greens, like plaintain.

What do they get now (and mom)?

As I said, kitchen oatmeal is very easy to digest, and a good booster for kits. That's something you can offer from start, but also intrudce it over several days, you can dampen it for a start.
Does the doe still nurse them?

I really want the doe to nurse them but SHE DOESN'T. :cry1: I tried giving them oatmeal. Doesn't even touch. The doe gets fresh grass and veggies. She and the buck were never on a pellet diet. When the babies were nursing they nibbled on the grass sometimes. And now, they are on a grass and fruits diet. (They hate veggies as for now) I bought some "herbal" hay which is a mix of alfa alfa, chamomile, marigold, and timothy. That is the only thing they are eager to eat it seems. Also, they LOVE GRAPES.

 

[ladysown]

the problem with corn is not just the mytotoxins but also in how it is not processed well within the gut of rabbits. Corn simply isn't good for them overall.

 

[Shanan]

But most websites say that corn meal and ground corn is fine as long as they don't have husks? Also there are no pellet brand which doesn't have corn in them. Very few brands offer no corn stuff and those brands and products are not available here in India.

 

[Blue eyes]

the problem with corn is not just the mytotoxins but also in how it is not processed well within the gut of rabbits. Corn simply isn't good for them overall.

Yes. The hulls of corn are indigestible to rabbits. Many have died from gut impaction caused by those hulls.

The bottom of this article explains this:
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/diet.html

 

[Shanan]

This scares me. But is the corn in my rabbit pellet okay? It's not corn kernel.

 

[Preitler]

It's not the best stuff, but on the other hand, it's rabbit food. It's not like whole populations of pet rabbits drop dead because of it. The world isn't black and white, small amounts wont hurt growing rabbits, and even adults will do ok if fed only as treats - they are really rich.

I would still try to feed them oatmeal first, make it wet and put a small amount on their lips. In this age, they eat what mama eats, so chances are better when they see her eating it.

The corn hulls aren't that problem, they are just fiber as so much else (big part of bunny poo is such fiber). Farmers here do feed corn, whole cobs, but as mentioned above that's for fattening them up, no worry about teeth etc., but it doesn't necesserely constipate when they are used to it, and since it's not the best stuff for their digestion that can take time and personnally I would be careful around weaning, since that is stress enough at this age.

I would take some information from the house rabbit society with a grain of salt, anyway, there's a lot of info, sometimes from a quite narrow view, but not essentially wrong.

You said that's the best food available - what are the others?

 

[Preitler]

And about taking info with a grain of salt, with threads like thise you get the problems of hundreds of rabbits summed up

 

[Blue eyes]

"The hull of corn kernels is composed of a complex polysaccharide (not cellulose and pectin, of which plant cell walls are more commonly composed, and which a rabbit can digest) which rabbits cannot digest."

That is from the article linked above (which is not from the house rabbit society).

Of course different rabbits can tolerate different "bad" foods. I know of a rabbit that was 5 years old and had never been fed anything but dry dog food!

Shanon, is it possible to order pellets online? I wonder if there are places that would ship to India.

 

[JBun]

If it were me I wouldn't feed it. I don't feed pellets any more and only feed hay and foraged plants. I've had problems with feed pellets causing illness in my rabbits, even the supposed good quality ones we can get here in the US. There are also people that I know that have had their rabbits essentially poisoned by feed that was incorrectly formulated and had toxic levels of vitamins in the feed. Hundreds of rabbits in my area had to be put down as a result. due to permanent organ damage. With rabbit food pellets you can't control the quality of the ingredients, as you are buying a ready made product. So you can't be sure if any of the added ingredients have mold toxins or other problems with them. I just got to the point where I was too worried about rabbit food pellets making my rabbits sick and didn't feel I could trust giving them to my rabbits any more. So I would just stick with the diet you are currently feeding, because all but the one baby seem to be staying healthy on it right? And after all, rabbits in the wild do perfectly fine on a forage diet, and not getting processed rabbit pellets.

I would think that if one baby rabbit is doing well on the diet you are currently feeding them, that what you are feeding has enough nutrition for the babies, and if it is only the other baby that doesn't seem as healthy, then there could be an underlying health problem with that one baby. It could be something as simple as a digestive parasite causing low weight gain, and that needs treatment, or there could be something more complicated going on. If you haven't ever taken a look at it's front teeth I would suggest doing that, just to make sure it's not the front incisors causing the problem. If they aren't aligned correctly and are starting to overgrow, that could cause a rabbit to not eat enough and would result in weight loss. Look at the pictures in this link to see what their teeth should normally look like and also what overgrown teeth can look like.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Treatment/Clipping.htm

 

[Shanan]

The others have muesli and whole corn. Also, acc to reviews those food are hated by most domestic rabbits. I have one more option tho. That is THE BEST available. That food is made of Timothy. My buns never had Timothy because they get fresh grass here. I bought Timothy once, but they didn't like it maybe because it wasn't good quality. The imported Timothy Hay cost a fortune here. Same applies for THE BEST food I mentioned.

 

[Shanan]

"The hull of corn kernels is composed of a complex polysaccharide (not cellulose and pectin, of which plant cell walls are more commonly composed, and which a rabbit can digest) which rabbits cannot digest."

That is from the article linked above (which is not from the house rabbit society).

Of course different rabbits can tolerate different "bad" foods. I know of a rabbit that was 5 years old and had never been fed anything but dry dog food!

Shanon, is it possible to order pellets online? I wonder if there are places that would ship to India.

See the problem here is you guys buy pellets with some dollars and that automatically becomes more for us. If the thing there costs like 2$ it would become 20$ here. We have to pay shipping charges like triple of the price of the product. Otherwise there's Oxbow here also.

 

[Shanan]

If it were me I wouldn't feed it. I don't feed pellets any more and only feed hay and foraged plants. I've had problems with feed pellets causing illness in my rabbits, even the supposed good quality ones we can get here in the US. There are also people that I know that have had their rabbits essentially poisoned by feed that was incorrectly formulated and had toxic levels of vitamins in the feed. Hundreds of rabbits in my area had to be put down as a result. due to permanent organ damage. With rabbit food pellets you can't control the quality of the ingredients, as you are buying a ready made product. So you can't be sure if any of the added ingredients have mold toxins or other problems with them. I just got to the point where I was too worried about rabbit food pellets making my rabbits sick and didn't feel I could trust giving them to my rabbits any more. So I would just stick with the diet you are currently feeding, because all but the one baby seem to be staying healthy on it right? And after all, rabbits in the wild do perfectly fine on a forage diet, and not getting processed rabbit pellets.

I would think that if one baby rabbit is doing well on the diet you are currently feeding them, that what you are feeding has enough nutrition for the babies, and if it is only the other baby that doesn't seem as healthy, then there could be an underlying health problem with that one baby. It could be something as simple as a digestive parasite causing low weight gain, and that needs treatment, or there could be something more complicated going on. If you haven't ever taken a look at it's front teeth I would suggest doing that, just to make sure it's not the front incisors causing the problem. If they aren't aligned correctly and are starting to overgrow, that could cause a rabbit to not eat enough and would result in weight loss. Look at the pictures in this link to see what their teeth should normally look like and also what overgrown teeth can look like.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Dental_diseases/Treatment/Clipping.htm

I had been sticking to the diet with experimentation every now and then. The problem I am facing mostly is struggling to give them enough protein for this stage. Fresh grass is just fiber with small protein content. My buns were still peeing milky white and that is getting me worried (Where is this calcium coming from?). I stopped legumes and pooh, calcium problems gone. Then if not legumes where from am I going to get the protein from? The place I live has a restricted variety of vegetables also. I have access to water spinach in abundance which has oxalic acid problems. Too much carrot also can get them into problems. The doe and buck have no issues but the babies are getting more delicate. Cabbage has no nutrition. Also I live in a tropical country so all veggies are not available throughout the year. So now if I get cabbage or cauliflower, it will either have fungus on them or will be hybrid and treated. The main source of protein is Alfa Alfa which is not available here. Next best option is pellets.The other veggies available here in abundance are not liked/suitable. So where am I going to get the protein?

Also they DON'T like veggies at all. All they want are digestive biscuits (like seriously?)

 

[Shanan]

And about taking info with a grain of salt, with threads like thise you get the problems of hundreds of rabbits summed up

I am trying to feed them oatmeal. I hope they start eating it. I am putting in grapes so that they get attracted lol

 

[Shanan]

It's not the best stuff, but on the other hand, it's rabbit food. It's not like whole populations of pet rabbits drop dead because of it. The world isn't black and white, small amounts wont hurt growing rabbits, and even adults will do ok if fed only as treats - they are really rich.

I would still try to feed them oatmeal first, make it wet and put a small amount on their lips. In this age, they eat what mama eats, so chances are better when they see her eating it.

The corn hulls aren't that problem, they are just fiber as so much else (big part of bunny poo is such fiber). Farmers here do feed corn, whole cobs, but as mentioned above that's for fattening them up, no worry about teeth etc., but it doesn't necesserely constipate when they are used to it, and since it's not the best stuff for their digestion that can take time and personnally I would be careful around weaning, since that is stress enough at this age.

I would take some information from the house rabbit society with a grain of salt, anyway, there's a lot of info, sometimes from a quite narrow view, but not essentially wrong.

You said that's the best food available - what are the others?

The other foods abundantly available have whole corn and muesli and they are not pellets. I have got another brand which is actually the BEST one but it is for adult rabbits. It is pellets made from Timothy and no corn. But this is pricey.

 

[JBun]

You are worrying too much about the calcium sediment in their urine. Trust me, it's very normal for rabbits to have urine that has calcium sediment in it. The only time you need to worry is if it is thickened and a creamy texture, or gritty. If it just has the consistency of normal watery urine but is a whitish color due to the calcium sediment, that is ok. Young babies especially need the extra calcium in their diet for their bone growth, so it wouldn't be good to be limiting their calcium intake too much anyways.

If they previously did alright with the legumes in their diet, I would add them back in gradually. In my opinion this will be better than the rabbit pellets that are available to you. I think it would also be better than the oats, as oats are low in protein and high in carbohydrates, which can be a bad combination for young rabbits sensitive digestive systems. As for the babies needing more protein, the leafy bits of young growth grass has higher protein in it than more mature grass. So a leafy grass can give additional protein as well.

If the babies are eating lots of grass and hay, and especially if you add legumes back into their diet, and they are still skinny, it might be they have digestive parasites and need to be dewormed. So that is something to keep in mind if they aren't gaining weight well as they grow.

 

[Shanan]

You are worrying too much about the calcium sediment in their urine. Trust me, it's very normal for rabbits to have urine that has calcium sediment in it. The only time you need to worry is if it is thickened and a creamy texture, or gritty. If it just has the consistency of normal watery urine but is a whitish color due to the calcium sediment, that is ok. Young babies especially need the extra calcium in their diet for their bone growth, so it wouldn't be good to be limiting their calcium intake too much anyways.

If they previously did alright with the legumes in their diet, I would add them back in gradually. In my opinion this will be better than the rabbit pellets that are available to you. I think it would also be better than the oats, as oats are low in protein and high in carbohydrates, which can be a bad combination for young rabbits sensitive digestive systems. As for the babies needing more protein, the leafy bits of young growth grass has higher protein in it than more mature grass. So a leafy grass can give additional protein as well.

If the babies are eating lots of grass and hay, and especially if you add legumes back into their diet, and they are still skinny, it might be they have digestive parasites and need to be dewormed. So that is something to keep in mind if they aren't gaining weight well as they grow.

I also checked their teeth and it's fine. They get fresh grass morning and night (not all day). And there's no hay available here.

I would say the adults get to chew grass almost for 10-12 hours. And I provide veggies which stays for like 2-4 hours. The rest I used to provide legumes and boiled rice (no other option). When I provided legumes, they used to urinate milky white which when dried created a white spot (I don't know it's normal or not). But after I stopped legumes, it stopped completely. Now I provide fruits, oats and rice instead of legumes and no calcium problems now. Should I restart legumes?

There are loads of info websites on the internet that have 2000 different opinions. I have no idea who is speaking the truth lol. We took opinions from the rabbit breeders where we brought the rabbits from just an hour back and they said to provide them with only rice and some veggies here and there and no water (which is completely a wrong diet for pet rabbits acc to my knowledge). I am really very confused at the moment. I love them a lot and want to provide them with what is best for them.