Chocolate Rabbits

[polly]

Ok first of all chocolate netherlands are very uncommon in this country. I am trying to get the rabbit genetic book without success so far.

I have a black buck I know his parents were a chocolate buck and an agouti doe. He is the father of 2 of my litters that are 4 weeks old.

Mated with Dorie (agouti) I got 3 agoutisI know Dories mum was an agouti don't know what the buck was

Mated with Squishy (black otter) I got 3 silver martins (2 died) and 2 blue otters. Her parents were a black otter buck and a silver martin doe.

Don't know any of thegrandparents, they don't seem to keep as good records over here. ( i am keeping good records)

I don't know how much this helps but what i was wondering is what is the best combination to get chocolates, should i keep a doe from one of these litters and mate it back to Jack or try a different doe.

I have 3 other does: Miffy - colour bred red eyed white her parents are bothsilver smokes

Evie - silver siamese smoke parents both silver smokes

Lucy - Black otter don't know her parents

Thanks i hope this makes sense

 

[TinysMom]

Hi - first about the book.

If you want - I can buy the book at the show in 2 weeks and ship it to you from here in Tx and you can paypal me the money if you have paypal.(I'd want you to wait until I shipped it to paypal me though).

I think the smaller book is $12.95 or something like that.

Now - about your situation.

I'd keep a doe or two to take back to their father. If he carries chocolate - that means each doe has a 50/50 chance of carrying it. Since we don't know what your older does carry - I wouldn't use them to try and get chocolate - I'd be using does out of him.

I'm not surprised at what you got out of the does though as the tan family (otters) and the agouti family are dominate over the self (black,chocolate, blue,lilac) family.

My personal opinion is if you can get a black doe out of him - that would be the one to keep as chocolate may be carried but it won't show if agouti or tan is there. Those are always dominant.

So taking him to a black doe is your best option and then keeping something out of that will increase your chances.

Peg

 

[polly]

That would be brilliant Peg i do have paypal and that would be superb. I don't have an all black doe i would need to ask my breeders and try and get one through one of them. Mike does a lot of judging so i will give him a ring and see if he knows anyone with a black doe. he breeds the smokes so that is why i have a few but he has a "breeding for fun" section to see what he gets and that is how i got jack in the first place. I don't want to use the other breeder i used as Nibbler came from him and he was the one with the syphilis.

Out of interest Evie my siamese smoke was mated to Dennis who is anopal agouti and she had one opal agouti, if i mated these two together again will i get more opal agoutis? since i have had them once i would like an opal doe to mate back to Dennis if thats a good idea pls tell me if i am wrong. (i posted pics of the babies further down the rabbitry) if you want a look at what i got.

Thanks again Peg sorry to keep picking your brains

 

[TinysMom]

Hey - no problem picking my brains...just know that there are others here who are much smarter than me.

Ok - here is the way I see it....but I don't really know the colors in the UK...or if they're called the same thing here.

All rabbits have five genes that help determine color. They are"A,B,C,D & E". I'm only going to write about the A gene here...


Agouti rabbits are the "most dominant" on the a gene. The tan pattern (otters, martins, etc) are the second most dominant and then the selfs (black, etc).

The codes are:

A - agouti
at- tan
a - self

Let's see you have an agouti rabbit - but it came out of a black doe. It genetic code (since it has two genes even though it only passes one on to the offspring) has to be:

Aa - the large A coming from the Agouti parent - the small a coming from the black parent.

HOWEVER...you could have two agouti parents and wind up with a black rabbit.

How?

Let's say the buck is Aa and the doe is Aa. Every baby has a 25% chance of being "aa".

Now with shadeds....they're shading is on a different gene - the "e"gene. That determines "extension" and how much of the color shows.

Most breeders I know won't breed a shaded with an agouti rabbit....because it weakens the agouti pattern and does nothing forthe shaded. The breeders I know who work with agouti mainly breed agouti to agouti. They might take an agouti to a "self" rabbit like a black...

The same thing with tans..most breeders I know will take the tans to either tans or a self.

But a lot of breeders will take the shaded rabbits to a self rabbit or to other shadeds.

So think of it like this:

A - agouti - dominant - if one rabbit or both rabbits in your pairing are agouti - you will most likely get agouti (depending upon what they're hiding behind it).

at - tan - the otters, martins, etc. - Breed this to an agouti and you'll still get agouti most likely. Breed this to a self and you'll probably get tan...depends again upon what is in the 2nd slot for the agene

a - self - the hardest to get if you're working wtih tans and agoutis..



Here are some links on genetics that probably explain it much better than I do.

http://islandgems.net/mygenetics.html

http://users.adelphia.net/~powellshoppyacres/easy_lop_color_genetics.htm

http://home.pacbell.net/bettychu/genetics.html(even has a quiz)

http://jillswilddutchbunch.freehosting.net/articles/GenotypeArticle.html

Pam is really our genetics expert....post your questions and I'll pm her to ask her to look at the thread. She's AWESOME....I only scratch the surface but she has mined the gems to understand genetics!

Peg

OOPS. EDITED TO ADD: Yes - you should still begetting agoutis - not sure if they will continue to be opal but there is probably a good chance they would be!

 

[bluebird]

I have chocolates,like Peg said anything carrying chocolate bred back too the father wil increase the chances of getting choc.if you cant find another choc i had good luck breeding to smoke pearls.i wouldnt use black unless she carries a lot of chocolate in her pedigree its just too dominate.blue works okay especially if they are chocolate carriers.if you could find a lilac that would be perfect.bluebird

 

[TinysMom]

I guess what I was trying to say was don't use agouti or tan as they're dominant over self..

 

[pamnock]

Breed a solid (it appears that you don't currently have one)to your black buck and breedthose those does back to the buck to "hopefully" get chocolates in the litter. Some of the does "may" inherit the chocolate gene that we know your buck has, however, you won't know which ones (if any) inherited the gene.

You'll greatly increase your chances of chocolate if you can find another chocolate carrier to breed to your buck.

Pam

 

[polly]

What do seal points come under ? shaded? Don't know of any lilacs in Scotland might be able to get one from down south why are lilacs so good? and is it a good or bad idea to get a black doe then?

It is the buck that carries the chocolate gene.

My baby opal is a lot lighter just now than his dad is that cause i mated him to a silver siamese ( that is a shaded am i right?) or will he get darker as he gets older?

Sorry guys just want to understand what i am doing better to get the best out of my litters

most of the babies look good but i think opal might be show worthy if i get pics in another couple of weeks will anyone that shows or maybe pam tell me an honest opinion he looks quite stocky and has nice flat face i will also try to get a pic of Dennis (his dad) he has been showed in the past as he is tattood.

Bluebird send me them over you'll get good money for them overe here and i can bunny nap them lol

The only thing that puts me off showing over here is that they put aring around one of their back feet instead of tattooing them and they are hard to get off cause they are solid metal. when you have finished showing them. Any little excess weight when they get older and they digin and hurt them.

 

[pamnock]

Lilacs are dilute chocolates. If chocolates are rare near you, then lilacs are probably also very hard to come by.

Seal points are shaded. If you want self chocolate, you want to avoid using the shadeds and agoutis that you have.

You should be able to easily cut through the rings with a good pair of nippers.

Pam

 

[polly]

Thanks Pam, and everyone else, I think i can get lilacs and maybe a chocolate from down south i will ask Mike I have gotin touch with a breeder in Glasgow as welland she breeds afew colours so i am going through on sunday hopefully, she does a few different colours but seal points and orange (which she developed over here) are her main colours she also said she could help me a bit with the genetics too. so maybe with her help i'll get something suibtable.

Thanks again for every bodys help Peg will you pm me when you want me to pay you for the book. When i get my first chocolates i will do pics!!lol think it will be a while yet!