Chalk in stasis- in the hospital

[Luvmyzoocrew]

oh no hope she starts feeling better soon.

 

[ra7751]

Just wondering.....why would your vet give a rabbit Zantac?Not a cat or dog....environment in the GI is much different. That is a histimine blocker that reduces the amount of acid in the GI. The problem I have with that.....the beneficial bacteria in the gut requires an acidic environment in which to live and reproduce. A change in pH is what kills off the beneficial bacteria and results in a growth of a harmful bacteria known as Clostridium. The correct response to stasis is lots of hydration, possibly an antibiotic known as Metronidazole....not so much for the antibiotic quality but much more for the anti-inflammatory properties and a way to bind the toxins of Clostridium. I don't know if this product is available but I use a horse product called BioSponge. I also acidify the gut with probiotics in order to stabilize the pH in an acidic state. I have yet had a vet that can explain to me (correctly anyway) why an acid reducer is appropriate. I do understand their view....they usually think that a reduction in acid will prevent gastric ulcers....not so much and it's destroying the beneficial bacteria in the GI. I have had rabbits in stasis for over a week and my response was fluids with no drugs whatsoever.....all came thru. I would at least ask the vet about the Zantac.....just to see what the answer would be.

Randy

 

[Jessyka]

Sending many good vibes your way. :hearts

 

[Pipp]

How is she? :?



sas ray:

 

[JimD]

ray:

 

[mouse_chalk]

Sorry for the delay in update! I've only been half at the computer all day here and there.

She came home this morning. The vet (different one to all the others) said that she's been eating greens and hay overnight and that she had pooped some teeny tiny poops. He actually showed them to me and they are so small- about the size of this smiley- . Still, better than nothing. The vet thought that since she has got some movement back, that she might be better off at home in her normal environment.

Since she's been home she's done some tiny poos and eaten some hay and she's been a bit active, and cuddled lots with Mouse. She's not really eating anything else though- I got her to nibble at carrot tops by waving them right at her nose until she got so annoyed she ate the ends just to get them out of her way, but that's it.

We have an appointment again tomorrow, they want to see her and make sure she's still improving etc.

She's on Zantac still, and we're to give her fluids etc. She's not had any metacam today- I'm not sure about it but the vet said that she doesn't appear to be in pain at the moment. If she does seem to need any later though, we can give some. Right now though she is sleeping/sitting much more normally and much more comfy looking.

Just need to get her to eat now! :?:?:?

It was very cute to see her reunited with Mouse- when she went into the cage, Mouse was on the first shelf and she leant down, and Chalk stood up to meet her and they groomed each other's noses.

 

[mouse_chalk]

tonyshuman wrote:

Oh dear. Best wishes for some good news. Perhaps she ate something abnormal, like wallboard or carpet. Hugs to you, hubby, and mouse.

I thought something like that, so I scouted round the living room but the walls/etc haven't been touched (recently) and there's no carpet anywhere downstairs at all apart from a short-pile mat in the living room which is untouched too. I can't find anything else she could have gotten into, unless she somehow managed to nibble the Christmas tree? It's unlikely though given it's on a table and the branches aren't within reach at all, and she's never left unsupervised because her and Mouse are too naughty lol, but I guess I couldn't say for definite sure what it was! :?

 

[ra7751]

I would still like to know the reasoning in using Zantac when you have to have an acidic climate to get the gut going. That just amazes me. I don't know of any reason I would use an acid reducer in a rabbit....too much change for a population of bacteria that needs an acidic climate.

 

[hln917]

Glad to hear she is better. Sending good wishes to a speedy recovery for Chalk!

 

[mouse_chalk]

ra7751 wrote:

Just wondering.....why would your vet give a rabbit Zantac?Not a cat or dog....environment in the GI is much different. That is a histimine blocker that reduces the amount of acid in the GI. The problem I have with that.....the beneficial bacteria in the gut requires an acidic environment in which to live and reproduce. A change in pH is what kills off the beneficial bacteria and results in a growth of a harmful bacteria known as Clostridium. The correct response to stasis is lots of hydration, possibly an antibiotic known as Metronidazole....not so much for the antibiotic quality but much more for the anti-inflammatory properties and a way to bind the toxins of Clostridium. I don't know if this product is available but I use a horse product called BioSponge. I also acidify the gut with probiotics in order to stabilize the pH in an acidic state. I have yet had a vet that can explain to me (correctly anyway) why an acid reducer is appropriate. I do understand their view....they usually think that a reduction in acid will prevent gastric ulcers....not so much and it's destroying the beneficial bacteria in the GI. I have had rabbits in stasis for over a week and my response was fluids with no drugs whatsoever.....all came thru. I would at least ask the vet about the Zantac.....just to see what the answer would be.

Randy

Randy, I didn't speak to this particular vet about the Zantac, but other vets have used it on our bunnies in the past I think- and I may misquote them here or get it wrong, with the view that being empty it can get irritated and the Zantac coats the stomach lining and helps to soothe it and make them more comfortable? I'm not entirely sure- it's been a stressful couple of days and stuff isn't staying in my head too well. I will ask tomorrow when we go back. All I know is that when it's been used on others in the past- Dotty had it, and so did Snowy, they have had no ill-effects and have recovered! Of course I'm not saying that it was because of the Zantac- it could very well have been in spite of it, but that's just my knowledge of it. I'll ask the vet the reasoning behind it tomorrow


And sorry- I was replying to everyone post by post and you responded again before I had finished typing!

 

[sbaxter]

mouse_chalk wrote:

sbaxter wrote:

Aw poor chalky get eating girl,hope she`s feeling better soon:sickbunny:

Thank-you! And also, I'm so sorry I haven't responded to your kind PM- I've not been on that much over xmas before this kicked off, but I'll get on it asap!


Chalk has had about 25mls of weak dioralyte solution this evening, another dose of metacam, more infacol, the probiotic and I made the bunny pesto again- carrot tops, basil and water blended down into a watery-pesto kind of texture. She took it fairly willingly from the syringe, which is what I can't understand- she's usually pretty good at spitting out food and meds when she wants to? I've not made the Critical Care up yet as I felt it better to get more watery foods into her but will give her some before bed tonight.

Her appointment tomorrow is at 9.15am, and if things continue as they have been tonight, I know that it's likely we're going to come home with our baby Chalk left behind admitted to the hospital.... If so, it'll be the best thing for her, but so sad and worrying for us



Don`t worry about i assumed you were probably busy !! hope chalk starts turning a corner soon and getting better,bless her :hearts

 

[Flashy]

ra7751 wrote:

I would still like to know the reasoning in using Zantac when you have to have an acidic climate to get the gut going. That just amazes me. I don't know of any reason I would use an acid reducer in a rabbit....too much change for a population of bacteria that needs an acidic climate.

Zantac is incredibly commonly used over here, by a large amount of vets. It is generally given hand in hand with Metacam because the vets believe that it prevents against ulcers (pretty much what you said in your previous post).

You have to remember we have one, at most, true rabbit savvy vet, and I still see a lot of differences in what she says and what you say Randy (most notably about EC).

Perhaps as your 'Happy New Year' prezzie to the UK you might like to send yourself over here and educate educate educate

I hope Chalk keeps improving Jen. Have you given an additional flavoured water source to hopefully help with hydration? The hydration should hopefully keep her from going back in to full stasis.

 

[mouse_chalk]

I need all the mint in all the land!

Every time one of them stops eating, there's always one thing that will tempt them round and get them nibbling again. Typically, it's usually the most expensive/hard to find at that particular time/comes in smallest quantities thing around. We always end up going to shops all over town to find it and buy up all the stocks. Usually it's carrot tops, or basil, but I just randomly decided to waft some fresh mint sprigs in her face and she ate them! I ran back to the kitchen for more, and she ate those too! I think about 5-6 sprigs altogether.

We have a bit more in the fridge but I'll be running out for more tomorrow!

Fingers crossed it helps...

 

[mouse_chalk]

Flashy wrote:

ra7751 wrote:

I would still like to know the reasoning in using Zantac when you have to have an acidic climate to get the gut going. That just amazes me. I don't know of any reason I would use an acid reducer in a rabbit....too much change for a population of bacteria that needs an acidic climate.

Zantac is incredibly commonly used over here, by a large amount of vets. It is generally given hand in hand with Metacam because the vets believe that it prevents against ulcers (pretty much what you said in your previous post).

You have to remember we have one, at most, true rabbit savvy vet, and I still see a lot of differences in what she says and what you say Randy (most notably about EC).

Perhaps as your 'Happy New Year' prezzie to the UK you might like to send yourself over here and educate educate educate

I hope Chalk keeps improving Jen. Have you given an additional flavoured water source to hopefully help with hydration? The hydration should hopefully keep her from going back in to full stasis.

Thanks Flashy And no, funnily enough, that's the one thing I haven't tried! She is being syringed with plenty of water, but I'll try that, if we have any juice or anything in the house...

You always come in with a good suggestion or different angle on things that I hadn't thought of before, thanks

 

[ra7751]

You might want to ask your vet about using Metronidazole instead. I think the acid reducer might be a little misunderstood idea about what goes on in a rabbit's gut. I have heard it from other places too. Metronidazole is an antibiotic. It is effective against Clostridium which is where the irritation that causes ulcerscomes from. Why treat the symptoms when you can treat the cause? I don't know if this product is available in the UK....but we have had huge successes with using a horse product called BioSponge. But the bottom line is that if you want to get the gut back into proper working order....the acidity level has to be increased, not decreased by an acid reducer. But your vet is probably reading from one of the older outdated manuals that are still in use....and many times they are limited to using only printed protocols regardless of how outdated they are.

Randy

 

[Flashy]

mouse_chalk wrote:

Thanks Flashy And no, funnily enough, that's the one thing I haven't tried! She is being syringed with plenty of water, but I'll try that, if we have any juice or anything in the house...

You always come in with a good suggestion or different angle on things that I hadn't thought of before, thanks

No problem.

You can try things like vanilla essence, cranberry or apple juice, camomile tea, mint tea, other herbal teas with rabbit safe stuff in, and when all else fails, you can get creative with things she likes (banana soaked in water makes a good banana water, basil soaked in water is apparently quite appetising too, etc, you could do this with pretty much any of her favourite foods foods).

Don't forget to provide a spare bowl of regular water too though.

 

[Flashy]

Oh and don't quote me on it but I'm reasonably sure that Metronidazole is available over here.

 

[ra7751]

I would urge caution in using any of the herbal type products. Sometimes they will impact the drugs in unusual ways and they are usually not in a positive way.

 

[Flashy]

ra7751 wrote:

I would urge caution in using any of the herbal type products. Sometimes they will impact the drugs in unusual ways and they are usually not in a positive way.

That's worth knowing.

I'm not actually sure I meant herbal teas. I think I meant Infusions? Would things like a mint or camomile infusion cause problems?

Thanks for highlighting that one Randy, Sorry Jen.

 

[mouse_chalk]

Well, as it turns out, we have none of those things so there's no need to worry! I can't believe I don't have vanilla essence at least- the only juice we have is orange and I'm not a fan of herbal teas or anything that's not regular builders tea! I will try and make something with fresh herbs or maybe juice a bit of apple though.


Tonight, she's eaten some more herbs, and she did a dead bunny flop! One of the ones where she rolled half onto her back wiggling her paws in the air- such a cute sight to see


I am a bit excited because thanks to a very kind pm from a fellow Uk member, I just found a UK site that sells imported US products- including canned pumpkin!!!!!!! I've ordered 2 cans and although I hope that Chalk will be better before it arrives, it'll be good to have it on hand for future cases. I wonder if they'll like it. For US members, it is the Libby's brand, the 100% pure pumpkin cans, right? I know it has to be the pure stuff with no added ingredients but just wanted to check.