Bunny treated for URI with Baytril in October, sick again?

[doodlebugger]

We had two rabbits sick back in October with similar symptoms. They were sneezing, with a clear mucus occasionally (like a runny nose, but not too bad), and when we took them to our rabbit savvy vet, she said that they had a sort of congested throat sound. So, she treated them with Baytril. It worked for one of the bunnies, but the other bunny had to have a shot of something later, and then come back a week later for another shot. The bunny that the Baytril worked for started sneezing again this week - we are almost a month out from the last time he started. The discharge is clear, and his sneezes have been maybe at most twice in a day. But, my rabbit savvy vet is out of the office until next week (went early for the holidays). In the past, she told me if this happened and I was concerned, I could give him Baytril to "hold him off" until I can get him to the vet. So, I started this Sunday and he seems to be improving. She also told me to try running a vaporizer because our heat has been running (because it's been freezing here!!!) and it might be too dry in the house.

I'm just wondering if I should allow this not so confident vet to see him, as I think he will want to give him a shot too, or if I should try to wait and see if the Baytril does the trick again? He seems to be acting normal, pooing, peeing, eating, drinking water, and will also eat greens if I offer them as well as banana (given to take away the nasty taste of the Baytril liquid compound). I know how fast rabbits can get sick (we have lost two beloved rabbits this year), but I also don't trust this vet as much as I trust our usual vet and there are no rabbit savvy 24 hour vets in the area either. So, after hours and through the weekend, I would be on my own if something happens. :nerves1

What do you recommend? Waiting it out, or at least having the vet do an exam?

 

[SouthernNetherlandDwarf]

If you are extremely uncomfortable with this "overconfident" vet then don't go to the vet and try to see if the baytril works. Also I would suggest keeping your bun cool since it's hot in the home since it cold there and you have the heat on maybe a damp rag or nice cold water with some ice cubes in it can help.

 

[Maureen Las]

It doesn't sound to me like the baytril is really working that well because if it did the infection would not be reoccurring. I went through the "baytril" thing many years ago before I knew much. My bun would respond to the baytril but the infection would reoccur in several months. I would then use more baytril and the infection would subside only to reoccur in several weeks. Finally my bun would have all the symptoms while on baytril.

Baytril has been so overused that most bacteria of rabbits have developed resistance to the drug. Giving it repeatedly only increases the resistance.

I am interested in the injection . Convenia which is off-label for rabbits but common for dogs and cats can be given as a weekly injection for rabbits and more effective than baytril.
If you want to eradicate this type of infection you need to use the "big guns" (as ,Randy. a wild-life rehabber and past RO mod used to say)

Drugs like injectable bicillin combined with a drug like zithromxax orally is a good combo or even an older drug like Chlororamphenical .

I went years without having a real knowledgeable vet and had to learn to do a lot on my own and/or argue with vets who didn't want to risk GI issues that they believed would occur with almost anything other than baytril.
Now I have a vet who is younger and knowledgeable and will consult with other exotic vets if she has an issue.
Sounds to me like your confident vet and the not so confident vet are both the same.
Find out what the injection is because if it is Convenia probably would be a good choice .. and if your currently sick bun is better on baytril keep it up for now.
Also might try to get a culture and sensitivity on the discharge. I had a bun with runny snot but clear nasal discharge , bizarre throat sound etc ..sounds a lot like yours.
Bottom line is to look around for a vet who may be looking at the newer more useful drugs for rabbit infections.

 

[doodlebugger]

Well, I ended up taking him because I was worried that it might be getting worse. He wanted to put him on some kind of sulfa drug, but I felt uncomfortable with that. He decided to give him a Flocillin injection (some type of penicillin?) which is what the other rabbit had. We have to go back and get another one next Friday. And, he said I could keep him on the Baytril for now since that worked for the other rabbit along with the Flocillin. It's my understanding that is the same as the bicillin, just a different brand.

But tonight, he almost seems to be more snorty sounding than he was even this morning. So, I'm a bit concerned with that since he has the Baytril AND the Flocillin on board. He also said I could give him some probiotics like we gave the other rabbit, but I wasn't able to get him to take it (he's my daughter's rabbit and she is at college, but coming home for the holidays and she will be able to sweet talk him into it) today. We also tried to keep him less covered up (because we were worried about him getting too cold because it's been below freezing here the last couple of days and he's in a large room where the front door is). Also, when he started sounding snotty tonight, I stopped running the vaporizer - I wonder if that could be loosening up the mucus to where it's more runny?

They told me he would be worn out, and he has been. But, he is eating, drinking, pooing, and peeing just fine.

Our experience with our dog getting Convenia was horrible!! Unless it's a last resort for the rabbits, I will not use it.

And the vet was more confident this time than the last time I saw him. And, he has been working with the rabbit savvy vet to get more rabbit savvy. I felt pretty confident other than the sulfa drug which was not effective in a bunny that we lost earlier this year.

If this recurs, I will be asking for a culture. These were my daughter's rabbits - but we have lost two this year (both were a different breed, one died from a thymoma and the other is believed to have died from an internal abscess likely due to bad teeth which was likely due to the bad breeder we got him from), and it has just made me so anxious! We have one rabbit who has never been sick. The two who have been sick recently have never been sick previously. I am hoping this is just a little bump in the road and that this does the trick and that we don't have any more issues. ray:

 

[Maureen Las]

I spent a little time trying to look up Flo-cillin and for some reason it is not easy to get much info other than it is Pen G
Bicillin is 2 types of penicillin that are combined, one being faster acting than the other with the intent of causing an immediate powerful response, while keeping steady levels in the body. Bicillin for infections and abscesses is usually given sub q every other day for lengthy periods of time (at least 6 weeks )
Usually if penicillin is given in a weekly dose it would be for a condition like vent disease

I don't know why your bun would be getting weekly injections? Usually owners learn to give it themselves to the bun at home. Bicillin is sold over the counter (refrigerated) at farm stores like farm and fleet in the US as it is routinely used for cattle and other farm animals ; it is the same drug that is used for rabbits.

It is usually fine to give oral baytril and bicillin as a combo of drugs for an infection.
I hope that your rabbit is doing better . A cool mister is better to use than a vaporizer because cool air is easier to breathe in because it is less dense.
If your bun is still eating drinking pooping this is extremely good sign but one large dose of penicillin per week is a puzzle to me. Seems like a recipe for building up resistance to it
I would also appreciate learning what happened to your dog on Convenia.?

 

[doodlebugger]

Having a hard time today.....he got his second injection. He saw the rabbit savvy vet, and she decided to change his meds because he wasn't getting better, but he wasn't getting worse. She changed him to Trimethoprim Sulfamethoxazole and said to give him his first dose when we got back home. So, we did that, but then he never stopped stress breathing from the vet visit, and he got really cold. He kept laying on his tummy flattened out and changing position. The medicine bottle says to make sure he has a full tummy before taking it, and he had been eating hay the whole time, but I'm worried that maybe he has an upset stomach??

My daughter took him out, warmed him up, gently massaged his belly, and then he perked up, but is still kind of stress breathing. We put him back in his cage for a little while and he isn't shifting his weight as much now or laying on his belly like before, but his breathing isn't slowing down as much as I would like either. We called the vet, and she is out to lunch, but the tech is saying we might need to bring him back. It's an hour drive to this rabbit savvy vet, and I'm waiting for her to call back first before we load back up and stress out the bunny even more.

I just wish they could have figured out the problem while we were there this morning!!!

 

[doodlebugger]

Forgot to add - Convenia caused my dog to have horrible diarrhea, and he is still having problems almost two months later. There is a facebook group against it, and a lot of complaints about dogs and cats dying after getting Convenia. We had to do a probiotic treatment for our dog, and we are still having to give him probiotics at least once a week due to diarrhea which the vet cannot explain, but which seems to be a common complaint for Convenia. However, our rabbit savvy vet uses it occasionally for rabbits and they have never had any issues with it.

 

[doodlebugger]

Heard back from the vet. She asked us to give him Simthecone (infant gas drops) and Reglan. We have done that and now we are waiting. If he doesn't get relief in a few hours, we will have to rush back to the vet later this evening.

 

[doodlebugger]

Ended up taking him to the rabbit savvy vet. She is taking him home for the night. She is going to do some sub-q fluids, and she is going to flush his sinuses, and do some other treatment tonight. She felt his prognosis was very good, but couldn't guarantee anything of course.

We have lost two other rabbits this year - one to thymoma and the other to an unknown cause (believed to be some sort of internal abscess). This is just very difficult as we are doing everything we know to do right....avoiding cross contamination, cleaning frequently, changing anything that might be causing URI's or other problems, etc. It's so frustrating. And, to have this little guy away from home when he's never been away from home before is heart wrenching......
:bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl:

 

[Sundew1]

How's he doing? Did he end up recovering?

 

[doodlebugger]

He came home, had a few more episodes of strange rapid breathing, we thought we were going to lose him. I gave him some metacam, and he suddenly perked up that night. He had a few more episodes and then stopped. I think he might have been having some stomach issues at the same times as the URI. But, here we are two weeks later and had to go back to the vet. They couldn't do a culture today because they said they will have to sedate him. So, they sent us home with minocycline which they said was the same as doxycycline, and they are hoping it will do the trick, but if he's not showing improvement by Monday, they will sedate him and do the culture. This will be his third antibiotic. The baytril helps, but it comes back. They did flocillin injections and that seemed to help but again, it came back. They tried trimethsulfa something and that caused him stomach problems. He is back on the probiotics, the minocycline, and we are using baby saline drops when he gets too dry and snorty (but not often - like maybe once a day). They said we can give metacam (which might lessen the inflammation in his nasal passages) if he seems to be in pain, and we have an epi/saline mix for an emergency if he gets too clogged up. Poor guy.....I just want him better!! I hope this one works. (I am going to make a second post because I know nothing about this new antibiotic.)

 

[doodlebugger]

We dropped our little guy off at the rabbit savvy vet for a nasal flush and culture. She said that she felt he had sinusitis, and she was concerned about how the swab thing went down too easy, so she did an x-ray and sees some bone loss? She didn't want to say too much more in the message she left, but she said she really wanted to know what the culture results are before she makes any recommendations. I'm a bit scared - it doesn't sound too good for our little guy. Anyone ever heard of this before?

 

[doodlebugger]

Here's what I'm finding:

Bones—P. multocida can result in osteomyelitis (infection of the bone). For example, rabbits with severe rhinitis can have destruction of the small bones (turbinates) within the nasal cavity.

This is from this website: http://www.celebratingrabbits.com/stories/pasteurella.html

So, I'm wondering if this is being caused by Pasteurella? Guess we will have to wait for the culture to come back......

 

[JBun]

Bone loss can occur with prolonged and/or severe infection. Pasteurella can be the cause, but it's possible it may be another bacteria. I'm very sorry this is what the vet found. It's likely your bun is going to need to be on continuous antibiotics to keep the infection under control, and you may need to switch to an antibiotic with better tissue penetration, like zithromax(risk of digestive upset), chloramphenicol, pen g procaine/benzathine, but that will also depend on what the culture results are.

If your bun isn't on daily metacam, that would also be helpful for any inflammation. Another thing to ask your vet about is a mucolytic. Bisolvon(bromhexine) has been used in the UK for rabbits with respiratory illness, to help thin the mucous and make discharge easier. Not sure an equivalent that could be used here in the US, but maybe you could ask your vet about it.

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Bacterial/RhinitisRabbits.htm
http://veterinarywebinars.com/assets/Study_Notes_Ear_Nose_Rabbits.pdf (page 15)

 

[doodlebugger]

Update - first part of the culture came back - the aerobic part. They saw nothing. The antibiotics could have skewed the results according to the vet, but she said that he wasn't on it long enough to really do that, so she is curious to see what the rest of the results will show. We are still waiting on the anerobic and the fungal parts which could take a couple of more weeks. The current antibiotic he is on seems to be keeping the infection under control (it's called Minocycline - vet said it's like Doxycycline). His breathing episodes have stopped in the last two days, the sneezing has stopped (unless he is rooting in his hay), and he is acting pretty normal these days. The only exception is that he keeps trying to hump everyone.....the vet doesn't know if this is a side effect of the medicine or something he is doing because we are making him take the meds, but he only started doing it once he started this antibiotic. He is a little over 4 years I think (my daughter would know for sure - it's her rabbit), and still intact down there. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it seems odd and the vet didn't really have an answer. No more snot on his nose, no snorting, or anything......he seems pretty normal other than the humping. We are happy with that, but we are concerned with how long it will last when he goes off of this medicine in 7 days. We are aware that we might have to treat him for a chronic illness....and we are prepared for that. We have considered all our options and the bone loss is not significant, but it is a definite indication that something has been going on. He is not getting daily metacam, but it is available if he needs it. We do have him on a probiotic too. We have also been able to use infant's saline and we have the epi/saline mix if he has a serious episode. Otherwise, we are just taking it day by day at this point.

 

[doodlebugger]

Second part of the culture came back. Again, nothing. Vet thinks maybe the antibiotics he was on could have skewed the results, but she is not concerned because she says that perhaps this means that the antibiotic is taking care of whatever it is. She said he will have a chronic problem with sinusitis, so we will just have to keep an eye on things and treat him as needed. She has decided to extend this antibiotic dose for another week since he is still occasionally having a sneeze, but otherwise, he is back to normal (still having the humping issue). We have one more test result (fungal) that we are waiting on. Otherwise, we will see where we are in another week.

 

[squidpop]

I read this thread and I'm glad to get to the end and find out your rabbit is doing better. I had a rabbit with similar issues, did Baytril but infection came back so switched to Azithromycin and it cleared the infection. I had to keep mine on the Azithromycin for 8 weeks after the infection cleared, but it has been two years and the infection has never come back. I hope the same will happen for your bunny.
Sending (((((positive, healing vibes)))))).

 

[doodlebugger]

Still waiting on results from the fungal test, but our rabbit savvy vet is out of the office for a couple of weeks. Her associate, who is not quite as rabbit savvy, is standing in for emergencies. After three weeks on the Minocycline, our little bun was doing great. He had no symptoms for almost two weeks and it was going well until today when he started the snotty sound and started laying around. Something new I noticed too is that I am finding more of his cecal type poo - the kind that he is supposed to eat - laying around his cage. We have a female who was messy with this, but this little bun never has been messy and always ate his. Now, he is leaving them lay around in his cage and not eating them. And, he is still occasionally doing the humpy thing. The vet's protocol for our situation is to put him back on the Minocycline and probiotics until the rabbit savvy vet returns. I'm a bit distressed, but I know when he was on the meds, he didn't have any symptoms and was feeling pretty good. When she gets back, we will have a discussion as to whether we should try changing the medicine.

I think we tried the Azithromycin (or something similar) and he went into stasis, so she wants to try to avoid it if possible. We did Baytril, and then Baytril with Bicillin? injections, and then she put him on this Minocycline.

So frustrating! I don't like to leave him alone when he is like this.....and that makes me feel so conflicted when I have to leave the house and he's having problems. But, life can't stop because he is sick......I just have to do my best to take care of him. So, we are back on the antibiotic again and we will see what happens after this time. Praying this round knocks it out, or that they get the fungal test back and find something that we can actually figure out a working treatment for. We do use newspapers that have been donated by the local little newspaper office.....they are kept in a shed, so I'm wondering if there is a fungal element. He loves the newspapers on the bottom of his cage and loves to rip them and carry them around. They help pad the cage for his feet too. But if they are hurting him, I would like to know so I can fix it!