Bonding a baby and adult rabbit.

[Chip and Dip]

Hello everyone,
I was just hoping that someone could let me know about if the bonding process for rabbits changes a bit if I'm introducing an adult male (desexed) to a baby female, or if the process is the same regardless.
I've done a lot of research about the bonding process through rabbit rescues, even had one of the founders talk to me about it for a bit (bless her soul).
Unfortunately, at that time I had hoped to get an older female so their ages matched better but was unable to adopt from rescues as they've closed down temporarily (thanks COVID-19). Thank you to anyone who replies!

 

[Mariam+Theo]

You don't want to start the bonding until the female is spayed and has recovered from the surgery. If you start the bonding before she is spayed, the spay will remove all the progress you made. You must wait until she is 6 months to get spayed, and then wait 1-2 months for her to heal and for her hormones to calm down. After that, you can begin bonding them. Bonding Bunnies

 

[Chip and Dip]

You don't want to start the bonding until the female is spayed and has recovered from the surgery. If you start the bonding before she is spayed, the spay will remove all the progress you made. You must wait until she is 6 months to get spayed, and then wait 1-2 months for her to heal and for her hormones to calm down. After that, you can begin bonding them. Bonding Bunnies

Thank you!

 

[Preitler]

You don't want to start the bonding until the female is spayed

Why?

Me doelings grow up with intact females around, a neutered buck should be easier. Rabbits are social animals, they grow into a hierachy. It's not like spaying creates social skills.
Bonding is more or less replacing or repairing of that.

If you start the bonding before she is spayed, the spay will remove all the progress you made.

Why would that be?

I do not think so, Why should everything change? They don't forget the few days it needs for her to heal up, I would at least let them together again then part time under supervision.
She'll get more mallow and less hormonal, so actually I would expect things to improve if she was a pesky juvenile before.
Also, why wait 1-2 months after spay? Yes, true for males because of fertility and hormonal resentments regarding other males, but I put my girl with the buck after 3 days, and he isn't even neutered.

I would only seperate them and wait after spaying if the doe is exceedingly dominant and the buck can't handle that, otherwise not.

I know that saying "Baby bonds are not real", but that is all about same *** pairs, mostly males, growing up together. If the buck is cool with the kit (all of mine were extremly friendly to kits, even intact).

Imho it's not always the best to combine the most difficult proceedures into one to be on the safe side. It wouldn't change anything if the characters proof to be incompatible, which is rather unlikely in that combination.

Anyway, I didn't do much bonding myself since I do things different, but I don't understand that "one standard fits all"

 

[Blue eyes]

Usually (not always) an adult rabbit will accept a baby rabbit -- at least temporarily. Once the female's hormones kick in, that's when the trial begins. Her hormones can change not only her behavior but also the behavior of the neutered male. How much that affects their 'relationship' is anyone's guess.

Sometimes, the onset of hormones will cause the two to suddenly start fighting. The difficulty is that it is easy in those very early days to be lulled into a sense of thinking they are best buddies. But one never knows how quickly (or when) those hormones may affect their relationship. If you don't notice or are not nearby when a fight breaks out, the results could be devastating. That's the risk of baby to adult "bonding."

If you happen to be around and are able to stop a fight from escalating, they can be separated at that time. Then she can be spayed with the hopes of trying to bond them anew after her spay.

Of course it is possible, if her hormones don't have any great affect (it varies per individual), then they could remain bonded even as she becomes an adult.

It's up to you as to which of these scenarios you are comfortable to deal with. You can get a baby and see how it goes, or you can wait until you are able to have your boy meet some other spayed females.

 

[Chip and Dip]

Usually (not always) an adult rabbit will accept a baby rabbit -- at least temporarily. Once the female's hormones kick in, that's when the trial begins. Her hormones can change not only her behavior but also the behavior of the neutered male. How much that affects their 'relationship' is anyone's guess.

Sometimes, the onset of hormones will cause the two to suddenly start fighting. The difficulty is that it is easy in those very early days to be lulled into a sense of thinking they are best buddies. But one never knows how quickly (or when) those hormones may affect their relationship. If you don't notice or are not nearby when a fight breaks out, the results could be devastating. That's the risk of baby to adult "bonding."

If you happen to be around and are able to stop a fight from escalating, they can be separated at that time. Then she can be spayed with the hopes of trying to bond them anew after her spay.

Of course it is possible, if her hormones don't have any great affect (it varies per individual), then they could remain bonded even as she becomes an adult.

It's up to you as to which of these scenarios you are comfortable to deal with. You can get a baby and see how it goes, or you can wait until you are able to have your boy meet some other spayed females.

So do you think it would be okay if I were to bond them then?
I worry about my older rabbit and if can be bonded sooner think he would benefit from that s lot

 

[Blue eyes]

So do you think it would be okay if I were to bond them then?
I worry about my older rabbit and if can be bonded sooner think he would benefit from that s lot

It could possibly be beneficial or it could just as easily be detrimental. The reason I say this is let's suppose the baby gets along with your boy. Then in 4 weeks, her hormones make him (or her, or both) start to act up and they start getting aggressive. This would be stressful for both rabbits. It would not be "beneficial" for either. If that happens, then they have to be separated (stress again) until she's old enough to spay. Then she needs to heal. Then they have to start the process all over again.

So in this scenario, it would be less stressful and more beneficial for your male to just wait a bit longer until he can meet some fixed females at a rescue.

However, if you get lucky and those hormones have little to no effect, and they remain on good terms, then all is well.

This is why it can go either way. The unknown factors make it impossible to predict. It could be worse to try a baby now. I don't think there is any great harm in waiting. Having dealt with some very difficult bonds, I, myself, would wait and go with the more sure bet of a fixed rabbit from a rescue. (I'm assuming your rescues would be similar to ours in the US where if one potential refuses to get along with your boy, they would allow an exchange.)

 

[Eve84]

Hi,
You can also not get your girl sprayed, we don’t spray females here in Germany unless there is a good reason for it. if you spray bunny’s it also comes with side effects, often bunny’s bones get really week afterwards as they don’t produce the hormones anymore after being sprayed for building strong bones. They sometimes even end up getting cancer due to be sprayed as the hormones keep some types of cancer away which are normally the types of cancer you can’t treat really good. If they check the uterus every 6-12 months they have a good chance of get this cancer early and this type of cancer you can treat very well and she is still able to fully recover from it. And loads of other side effects. And the risk of a bunny getting cancer by not be sprayed is only 20% so she might have a longer and healthier life if she is not one of the 20% and even if she is, she might get a really good treatment and is able to do a full recovery after all.
In terms of bonding it does make a big difference if she is sprayed or not. If you bond them and spray her later, she normally sort of degrades by getting sprayed, which means the hierarchy needs to be done again and a new fight starts over again.
Good luck
Eve

 

[Blue eyes]

Hi,
You can also not get your girl sprayed, we don’t spray females here in Germany unless there is a good reason for it. if you spray bunny’s it also comes with side effects, often bunny’s bones get really week afterwards as they don’t produce the hormones anymore after being sprayed for building strong bones. They sometimes even end up getting cancer due to be sprayed as the hormones keep some types of cancer away which are normally the types of cancer you can’t treat really good. If they check the uterus every 6-12 months they have a good chance of get this cancer early and this type of cancer you can treat very well and she is still able to fully recover from it. And loads of other side effects. And the risk of a bunny getting cancer by not be sprayed is only 20% so she might have a longer and healthier life if she is not one of the 20% and even if she is, she might get a really good treatment and is able to do a full recovery after all.
I

Hmmm... all of this sounds in direct contrast to what we are told here in the US (& UK) .

Spaying and Neutering | House Rabbit Society "Altered rabbits are healthier and live longer than unaltered rabbits. "

RABBIT HEALTH: Spay or Neuter my Rabbit? "Unspayed female rabbits have a very high risk of uterine cancer. "

Neutering – Castration and Spaying "Surgery on any animal can have unexpected complications, including a small risk of death, but for most rabbits the benefits of neutering far outweigh the very small risk."

Spaying in Rabbits "There are many behavioral and health benefits associated with spaying your rabbit."

Spaying or Neutering a Rabbit | Facts and Benefits "a fixed rabbit can live a longer, healthier life as the risk of cancer and urinary tract infections are greatly reduced. "

As for the bonding, a baby that is "bonded" with an adult may or may not remain bonded. The onset of hormones may cause fighting and necessitate spaying in hopes of trying to re-bond them.

 

[Eve84]

Hi Blue eyes,
Weird that the opinions are so very different from each other.... I’m wondering which of the two is right.... in Germany they are not up for spraying as it is a fairly big operation which comes with risk of it owns but also of all the side effects which come with it afterwards. They advice to come twice a year or at least once a year to get it checked by touching. And they say if you catch it early which is mostly the case when you get it checked 1-2 a year you can treat this type of cancer really well compared to the mast cell cancer they can develop if they get sprayed due to not producing the hormones anymore which is actually quite similar to us humans really once we get into the stage of menopause.
Next time I’m at the vet, which will be in June/ July to get all four vaccinated I will ask the vet of their opinion.
Stay save
Eve

 

[Blue eyes]

Hi Blue eyes,
Weird that the opinions are so very different from each other.... I’m wondering which of the two is right....

Sure does make me wonder the same thing. Both positions run completely contrary to each other.

 

[Preitler]

About that bonding, I think it really depends on the combination of the individual characters, so experiences differ.

Meanwhile I read about exactly this causing problems on another board, neutered 2-3yo buck gets along fine as long she's a kit, then gets completly horny when the girl comes of age, and she seems to be a dominant and strong character, and being constantly humped causes trouble and fights. Haven't heard before of a neutered male behave exactly like an intact one. Well, actually my intact bucks are sweet boys again once they got their way.
I still think this is a rather unfortunate combination - but obviously it can happen, and there's no way to know beforehand.

If it were me, I still would try it, but seperate if that kind of thing starts to happen, when he starts to pester her too much or vice versa.
The safer way is to wait until their personalities are settled and bond them the canventional way, I reckon, butr then again, those personalities should match.

 

[Preitler]

Hmmm... all of this sounds in direct contrast to what we are told here in the US (& UK) .

Yes it does. I would put it that way:
There were succsessful campaigns for neutering cats and dogs in the US in the last 2 decades, and it really had a very positive effect on numbers in shelters. Neutering was declared a Must DO.

But, well, things got carrried away a little. Americans are great in creating advertisement slogans and memes, and that combined with the tradition of people with an agenda going on a crusade and the upcoming of the internet it became pretty much a ball bouncing in a bubble. Claims with no data behind got declared the truth by official sounding groups on well made websites, it got repeated over and over and exaggerated on the way, new stuff invented and negative effects denied - wherever you look, you see it. Everywhere. All with honestly good intentions (mayby some vets had more profane interests too).
That didn't happen outside of the english speaking world, or part of the internet.

We still know that our intact does don't drop dead en masse at 5 or 3, or are already doomed at 1. That intact bucks grow old happily. That, for example, with all that marking and spraying there's less risk of sludge setting in the bladder.

No question, neutering indoor pet rabbits has a lot of positive effects that outweight the contras in many situations. But that excessive fearmongering is just stupid, in my opinion.

There are other things that are wiered - why is neutering bucks before they hit puberty so unpopular in the US?

 

[ichabodny]

I'm following this thread for a similar situation and pretty clear on the waiting for the baby doe spay vs not but am wondering if, while you were waiting for both to be neutered (male newly altered) and spayed it would be better to keep them in completely separate rooms?

If the original adult male were always free roam except for at night, would it better to keep the unaltered baby in a cage where the free roam can have access to the cage itself (but left closed) and have alternating times daily of free roam in the same main room for both bunnies until the actual bonding when they are both altered?

Or not let them have access to the other at all until that time (ie-letting the adult male continue to have free roam while placing both the pen and area in the next room without ever having access to the close scent of the other).