Bicillin and Zithromax

[Maureen Las]

Streisand
,
If you pulled the skin up and inserted horizontally you shouldn't have hit a blood vessel ; if you think that you were in muscle then it is possible.
You cannot blame yourself for this.

I am giving one of my rabbits injections right now andI don't always pull back on the syringe before I inject because I am sure I am above the muscle ..but I sometimes I don't do it because I give these injections without help from anyone and I do the best I can ; he is hard to hold

Today I attempted to clip my dentally challenged rabbits teeth in front because I cannot do the 3 hr drive to the dentist vet every month.

Iclipped one tooth and broke another . I made a mess of it .

Why?

because the same as you I am trying to be a vet when I am not a vet ....
I feel terrible about Hans because you obviously went above and beyond to help him ; I admire yougreatly for contacting Marcy re. the benacillin !
I am so sorry that you lost him ; it isn't right because you tried so hard But you are a truly outstanding rabbit owner
You tried to help him from deep down inside yourself and did the very best that you could ..
Without a necropsy you can never know for sure ; so often we are so sure that we caused damage when it was another unseen problem;

it has occurred time and time again ..owners blaming themselves for something being wrong when the bun may have had a hidden cancer. .

I know you are heartbroken because Hans is gone and nothing now will take away the pain of that but please give yourself the credit of being a really great rabbit owner .
Hugs from the heart

Maureen

 

[12354somebunny]

Thank you so much for your kind words Maureen.

I'm quite sure the needle was just under the skin, but the fact that I didn't pull back on the syringe this time just makes it so difficult. I keep going over everything, trying to figure out what happened. I know I should try not to dwell on it, but I can't. I keep thinking, what if I had just spend an extra few seconds to pull back the syringe, maybe he'll still be here with me

I barely slept last night. I'm at work today and struggling so hard to hold the tears back.

Sorry to hear about your bunny's broken tooth. Give him/her an extra hug from

 

[Flashy]

I completely agree that this was not your fault and you should not be blaming yourself, but I also know that is easier said than done.

It is much easier to blame ourselves than to realise that we had no control over a situation because if its our fault then maybe the bunny might still have been here. If we allow ourselves to accept that it was not our fault then its like accepting that the rabbit is gone or that s/he was meant to die or something.

Whilst you know what you were seeing with Hans in terms of the abscess improving but its completely an unknown as to what was going on inside him and things could have been more severe and complex than any of us could ever have dreamed.

You absolutely gave Hans the best shot. you were in a very difficult position and yet you went above and beyond what any owner can be expected to do. He was so so lucky to have been loved by you and, as sad as it sounds, he was lucky to die with you, and not alone.

It is hard to grieve and if you need to cry then try to allow yourself when it permits (I understand that obviously work is not always the easiest/best place to cry).

Please keep talking to us if it helps.

Also, I know we haven't spoken for ages but we did used to talk a lot in chat and if you do ever want a chat, feel free to PM me or add me to msn. [email protected]

x

 

[Maureen Las]

somebunny wrote:

Thank you so much for your kind words Maureen.

I'm quite sure the needle was just under the skin, but the fact that I didn't pull back on the syringe this time just makes it so difficult. I keep going over everything, trying to figure out what happened. I know I should try not to dwell on it, but I can't. I keep thinking, what if I had just spend an extra few seconds to pull back the syringe, maybe he'll still be here with me

I barely slept last night. I'm at work today and struggling so hard to hold the tears back.

Sorry to hear about your bunny's broken tooth. Give him/her an extra hug from

Would you ever be able to get a necropsy done on him? ( I'm sorry to be asking you this )
if you did it could possibly help your friend feel better re. giving benacillin to her rabbit and also ease your own mind if there wassome other problems with him...
if you don't want to respond to thisI will totally understand . you are in terrible grief and I am trying to figure out what happened....

 

[tonyshuman]

It was not your fault. Anything you did was to help him feel better, and it was helping. We're going to try to figure out what happened by looking into these drugs and discussing how they could have affected him. We're discussing it in The Fluffies' thread.

I am proud that you fought to hard to get Hans the right treatment. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to a vet and tell them what you think is right, to do research on your own, and to challenge them. We so often see vets as people who have already learned everything and our opinions don't matter in comparison to them. This is not true--they need to be lifelong learners just like everyone, and pushing your vet to learn more about this was difficult and took some real strength. You did right by Hans in trying to get him the best care possible. Something went wrong, but it was not your fault. Like angieluv said, even if it was a mistake in the injection, you didn't do it on purpose--you were trying to help him. You also haven't been trained to do this for your career, like a vet would (just like angieluv and the teeth). When we try to do something to help our rabbits and do the best we can, it's not our fault if it doesn't go right. Just like in every part of life--if you try your best and don't get the outcome you want, you still did your best and are not to blame for the outcome.

Sorry if that got a little weird and psychological but it's true. I wish I had the strength to tell a vet what treatment I wanted for my guys. I haven't had to do that yet, but I think if a vet doesn't do what I want, I'll just find a vet that will because I live in an area with a lot of vets and a lot of good vets, so that if I want to do something that makes sense medically I'll be able to find a vet that agrees with me. You don't have that option, so you have to be strong and assertive and tell the vet what you want, even if it's difficult.

 

[Maureen Las]

We have been talking about this on Fluffies thread
if it had been injected into the vein it would have been a violent reaction, maybe seizures
You didn't inject into the vein; it's possible that he died from stress

 

[Maureen Las]

I apologize for not respecting your grief re. this and analyzing it

Sorry Strriesand
Hugs
Maureen

 

[12354somebunny]

No apologies needed, Maureen.

I think of Hans all the time, and that fateful night. Memories of him still bring tears to my eyes, but I know that someday I'll be able to think of him and smile instead of cry. Like you, I'm also analyzing the cause of his departure. I hate not knowing why. I'm afraid I can't get a necropsy, I don't even know if its possible to do so here. We buried Hans the same night he went to the bridge. We live in an apartment but luckily I have a good friend living just across the road from us and Hans is resting in a little grassy piece of land next to her house.

There weren't any violent seizures. I'll try to recap everything since it's still fresh in memory: When it was time for the injection, my husband went to carry Hans out from his playpen and onto a table. At that point, he mentioned that it was a breeze grabbing Hans that night (usually Hans will run away and my husband will have to chase him around the playpen). But he seemed alright when we put him on the table, he moved around a little but husband kept him still so that I could inject. After the injection, Hans moved to get away from my husband's grip but I told my husband to pet him and keep him still because I wanted to take a picture to show that his abscess was shrinking. I also turned around to pet Hans and it was then that he went quiet. He was crouched down with his head down & close to the table, slightly tilted to the right.

We were shocked and kept stroking him. I tried calling my vet on her mobile but she didn't pick up. His head tilted a bit more to the right, then he kind of flopped down on his side. At this point, he was giving out faint breathes, about 3 times. The whole time we kept stroking him. Then I felt a final slight shudder run through his body and I knew he had left us. It happened very quickly, but it wasn't violent in any way.

Flashy, I remember our chats. You were the first person I talked to in RO and I remember your beautiful tribute to Flash. I'll add you on msn one of these days, for now I'm staying away from msn as its too painful to keep repeating what happened to each person who asks. I know they ask because they care and I appreciate it, but its just too hard right now.

 

[Hazel-Mom]

tonyshuman wrote:

I am guessing that 150K=150units/mL=150mg/mL

I am seeing this thread just now, so I'm not sure whether anyone already mentioned this or not, but you are of there by a factor of 1000!!

150K = 150,000 Units/ml NOT 150 units/ml !
fortunately, since 1 unit usually is the same as 1 micogram, i.e 1/1000th of a milligram or mg, 150,000 units/ml DOES equal 150 mg/ml. Whew.
So at least the rest of the calculations must have been right.


I'm so sorry to read that Hans passed away. I read the rest of the thread, and I agree, you seemed to be doing the right things.

 

[Maureen Las]

I think the calculations were probably right as she went striaght to the author of the bicillin author Marcy Rosenthal( I think that's her name )

I think Claire meant 150,000

StreisandI
just cannot figure it out but if Hans was easy to pick up that night there was probably something going on prior to the injection.; I wish we knew what. :?.........
I am just so very sorry about this..........:cry1:

Biny free little Guy :tears2:

 

[12354somebunny]

Hazel-mum, thanks for your input. I'm aware that the 'K' in 150K represents a unit of 1000 (i.e. 150K units = 150,000 units). And I've also come across a couple of sites which mention in passing that 1mg=1000 International Units.

Every time I analyse the situation, I come back to the possibility that I injected the drug into a blood vessel, and it travelled to his heart, leading to his passing and from the discussion in fluffies' thread, that's very possible. I feel like I've failed Hans.

 

[Maureen Las]

Hazel-Mom wrote:

tonyshuman wrote:

I am guessing that 150K=150units/mL=150mg/mL

I am seeing this thread just now, so I'm not sure whether anyone already mentioned this or not, but you are of there by a factor of 1000!!

150K = 150,000 Units/ml NOT 150 units/ml !
fortunately, since 1 unit usually is the same as 1 micogram, i.e 1/1000th of a milligram or mg, 150,000 units/ml DOES equal 150 mg/ml. Whew.
So at least the rest of the calculations must have been right.


I'm so sorry to read that Hans passed away. I read the rest of the thread, and I agree, you seemed to be doing the right things.

Where were you Hazelsmom when we were trying to figure out what K was = to???:?
Thanks for the info.

 

[12354somebunny]

angieluv wrote:

I think the calculations were probably right as she went striaght to the author of the bicillin author Marcy Rosenthal ( I think that's her name )

I did ask Marcy, but she wasn't 100% sure about the conversion. She thinks that 1mg is most likely equivalent to 1,000 units (and after that, I found a couple of sites which mentioned in passing that 1mg=1000units). Conversion aside, she looked at the contents of Benacillin and was certain that it is the right version of bicillin to be used.

 

[Flashy]

somebunny wrote:

Every time I analyse the situation, I come back to the possibility that I injected the drug into a blood vessel, and it travelled to his heart, leading to his passing and from the discussion in fluffies' thread, that's very possible. I feel like I've failed Hans.

It is natural to look at the biggest potential error we made, but I agree with Maureen. I think there was something else going on inside Hans, something that none of us, nor you could have known, and he was struggling that day, and the drug was just too much for his little body when it was already struggling and potentially failing.

I hope in time you are able to let the 'what ifs' and the guilt go because no one else other than you thinks that guilt is justified.

If you want to add me to msn at some time that's cool, but I won't ask you what happened, don't worry. We can just chat or whatever you want

 

[tonyshuman]

Hazel-Mom wrote:

tonyshuman wrote:

I am guessing that 150K=150units/mL=150mg/mL

I am seeing this thread just now, so I'm not sure whether anyone already mentioned this or not, but you are of there by a factor of 1000!!

150K = 150,000 Units/ml NOT 150 units/ml !
fortunately, since 1 unit usually is the same as 1 micogram, i.e 1/1000th of a milligram or mg, 150,000 units/ml DOES equal 150 mg/ml. Whew.
So at least the rest of the calculations must have been right.

Sorry I think I had a typo. I meant to say that 150k=150Kunits=150mg/ml
K as in kilo, aka kilo-units, meaning 1000 units.

I agree with angieluv and flashy that there must have been something else going on with Hans, especially after reading your description of his passing. I posted a lot of my thoughts in the fluffies' thread. We were discussing it there so that you wouldn't have to see us analyzing what was going on if you didn't want to see it yet. In particular, I did a lot of finding information and thinking out loud about it to get others' opinions on it, and not all of those thoughts I posted were 100% throught through yet--it was more of a discussion in progress than my final conclusions, if you know what I mean.

Really, the description of his passing makes me think something else was going on and it was 100% not your fault. If it had been from the drug, we would have seen at least some muscle twitching. If it had been from the drug too, it wouldn't have been your fault in my opinion, because your intentions were to help out Hans.

I really admire you for your persistence in getting good care for Hans, and for doing things outside of your comfort zone to take care of him. I'm really afraid of needles, so if my bunnies needed injections, it would be very hard for me to give them, not to mention that you had to convince your vet it was the right thing to do. The fact that the abscess was shrinking shows that what you were doing was working. Something you couldn't see must have been at play here. He may have died, but his family was doing everything possible to try to stop that, and that showed how much you loved him. Please please don't blame yourself for it. If you want to talk about it, and what I learned from the articles I found, please PM me at any time.

 

[12354somebunny]

I don't think its the drug either. When we first started treatment, Hans was given daily injections for the first 3 days (to get the drug level up, as advised by Randy). If it was anything to do with the drug, I think we would have seen some reaction then.

I guess you are all correct. There may have been something else going on that I couldn't see/know about. I'm going to leave it at that, and just cherish the memories Hans left behind from now on.

Thanks, Maureen, Tracy and Claire. You have all helped me tremendously during this hard time.