Belle is having problems again.

[ChandieLee]

As many of you may remember, Belle has had many problems over the past year and has to visit and stay at the vet's over night multiple times. Well, since I've last posted, Belle's had more problems- with her teeth. All of her back teeth (not exactly sure of the correct term, but I hope you get the picture) have been growing in pointed and cutting up her gums and tongue, resulting in severe stasis, hospital stays and a very miserable Belle. This has happened twice since I've last been here. It's happening again. At the moment Belle is still eating, but not as much as she should be, and she's grinding her teeth, indicating that she's in pain. I noticed this late yesterday. So, for the time being I gave her a dose of meloxicam and syringe fed her just a tiny bit. I'll be calling the vet in a couple of hours when they open.

Here's where the advice part comes in- Belle's teeth problems keep re-occuring and quickly. The vet said that it's just going to get worse and that unfortunately we'll have to put Belle down sooner or later.
Does this sound right? Will we have to put her down? I don't want to if it's not necessary. I was wondering what everyone else thinks.

Thanks in advance for everyone's help.

Chandra:hearts

 

[tonyshuman]

Another option other than frequent tooth grindings and constant problems is to have the back teeth removed. There are a few bunnies on here with few or no teeth. JaceIcing's Dallas has no teeth at all, and Haley's Max has no front incisors, if I remember right.

Another thing to think about is changing the type of hay she's getting in order to wear down on her teeth more and/or offering fresh grass year round. Silica in grass and hay wears down the teeth to keep them at a good length. Some types of hay have more silica in them. I remember an old thread about this--I'll look for it. Also, fresh grass has a different kind of silica that is coarser. You might grow some grass indoors for her to eat during the winter and give her fresh handfuls from outside during the rest of the year. Pinecones and wood chews may also help, but they usually wear down front teeth more than back teeth.

Removal of all of the teeth is pretty drastic, so I'd try some different hays and grass first. You definitely do not have to put her down for tooth problems. You might have to find another vet, if yours won't perform the tooth extraction, if it comes to that.

 

[Maureen Las]

My rabbit Beau has had the exact same problems for the past 2.5 yrs. he has had many infected molars pulled , and the ones remaining grow across his mouth and into his gums and have actually caused him toneed stitches in his mouth.

I have an animal dentist care for him . the dentist will file and realign the mouth so that he has a decent bite but this is a chronic problem and Beau eats a diet of Critical care and BBt pellets in a slurry. he cannot eat hay and just sucks on veggies.

The problem with having many of the teeth removed is that there is no oppositional teeth, no roughage in the diet so there is no grinding action.

This makes the teeth grow even more askew plus rabbit teeth grow very very quickly
it is possible to find either a vet or a dentist to see her every few months and file and grind down points. this can be very expensive and time consuming but it can be done.

I would have had all of Beau's teeth pulled but to be honestI don't feel that he could make it through a surgery so extensive.
He had 5 teeth pulled last fall and I felt the stress of that surgery was almost too much for him.

Idefinitely would not have that amount pulled again.

I guess that I would say that you need some different opinions from vets rather than PTS. Sometimes if a vet cannot do a procedure they will recommendPTS rather than admit they are not capable of dealing with it.

On the east coastI believe their are a lot of good rabbit vets
let us know what you plan on doing

 

[tonyshuman]

I couldn't find that thread about silica, but definitely try oat hay and maybe prairie grass if you can get it: http://www.dynamitedistributor.com/Images/PDF/grassvsalfalfa.pdf

 

[Flashy]

Not sure about over there, but some vets over here do conscious dentals, and they can do them routinely, so, for example, if you know Belle's problems occur every 6 week, then you could get her spurs burred every 5. Which would be more as a preventative measure and also hopefully prevent the teeth worsening and her teeth condition deteriorating further. Just a thought

I'm sorry things have been hard for you and Belle though. I wondered a while ago how you all were, so it's good to hear from you, even if the news isn't the best.

 

[ChandieLee]

Thanks for the responses guys.

The thing about hay is, Belle doesn't like it. I've tried different kinds of hay, and she just won't eat it. I don't know whether that's odd for bunnies...

Belle's been getting her teeth filed down for awhile now, and they just keep growing and eventually cut her mouth, so she's in so much pain she can't eat, which leads to stasis. That's why they hospitalize her after they file her teeth. They want to make sure she's eating, drinking and pooping before the let her come home. Last time this happened, the bill was over $700.00. Unfortunately I can't afford to pay bills like that every two months. Not too mention that this is very, very stressful for both her and Necro.

Exactly how risky is getting all of her teeth out?
I really, really don't want to have to put her down. :cry2

I'm even willing to travel a bit if it means I can save her..

 

[JadeIcing]

The vet who did Dallas's teeth is a couple hours from you.

 

[Maureen Las]

JadeIcing wrote:

The vet who did Dallas's teeth is a couple hours from you.

Wow this is luck for you!

Belleprobably doesn't eat hay because she cannot eat hay. Beau cannot eat hay at all so at some point he gave up trying...

 

[krsbunny]

Most vets I know of will not remove "cheek teeth" (that is, anything except incisors) unless they are either loose or badly infected. My understanding is that the risk of breaking the jaw is too great. While I know of several bunnies who did well with almost no teeth, they are/were toothless for one of the two above reasons. I do (personally) do not recommend trying to find a vet who is willing to do this -- too risky. Nor do I recommend euthanasia.

What you describe sounds very much like what I went through years ago with King Murray. He also would not/could not eat hay. I remember watching him try, in frustration, when he was new here. As you did, I tried everything I could find. The only thing he would even try was a very soft 3rd cutting timothy (that was only available one season). The vendor I bought that from no longer sells hay.

One of the vets here now recommend Kaytee Rainbow Exact for rabbits with molar spurs. This is an extruded (vs. pelleted) food that was suggested to me years ago with Murray, and it did seem to help, In fact, all my guys with teeth problems (which is almost all my guys, since I am a "lop bigot") are at least offered Rainbow Exact as a pellet "choice." Also, you might offer fresh grass (make sure it is not chemically treated with herbicides, pesticides, or processed fertilizer). Hartcourt-Brown's Textbook of Rabbit Medicine recommends both extruded food and grass for both GI issues and teeth problems.

Regarding the financial aspect ... First, catching it earlier (noticing subtle changes in eating habits and having teeth done then) will reduce risk to your rabbit and may also be cost-effective since I'm guessing that much of that $700 was "aftercare". I recommend you find a vet who will let you do most of that at home. My guys stay at the vets only until they are fully awake from the anesthesia... then they come home and I do aftercare.

I think you will save a lot of money if you look for a vet who will work with you on this (as opposed to extracting teeth) and let you have supplies/meds on hand for this. You'll need to learn how to take temperature, give sub-q fluids, and (depending on meds recommended) possibly injections. The good thing is that NO ONE is more of a "wimp" about such things than I was 10 years ago... and Murray helped me learn to be comfortable with doing all those things.

Good luck!

Kathy Smith

 

[naturestee]

I'm sorry to hear she's doing poorly.

Does she get regularly scheduled molar grinds/trims? How often? My Loki has been getting them every few months since last spring. The first time he went into stasis over the weekend and the spurs were diagnosed and treated that Monday. He hasn't gone into stasis from it since then, as my vet recommended bringing him in to be checked every two months and we've been able to knock that down to 4 months. Loki is an avid hay eater though. My vet prefers to get the spurs before they actually start doing damage, so essentially once they start being noticeable to her it's time for dental work. Myheart's Patrick and Luna both get molar grinds every two months like clockwork asthey've found that it is the right schedule for them to preventeating/stasis issues.

It might take some time to figure out the right dental work schedule for Belle. Depending on how good your vet is at them andhis price, you might want to shop around a little. Some vets have very little experience with rabbit dental work, others are pros and do it all the time.

 

[krsbunny]

Naturestee makes a good point that not all rabbit-savvy vets are equally skilled -- or comfortable -- doing teeth ... nor will all use the same technique. Also, "more expensive" does not always equate to "better." If money is an issue, shop around on price. I recently had to use a new (but highly recommended) vet for a dental while Dr. Allan was on vacation.... As I suspected teeth, I was more comfortable going that direction than to my previous vet who I'm just not as comfortable with on dental work (but who I would choose if I had to go through GI surgery). The cost was almost half what it is with Dr. Allan (previous vet would have been more than Dr. Allan). I willstill go to Dr. Allan whenever possible because she knows everyone's history ... but now I know I have a good, affordable backup.

Kathy

 

[ChandieLee]

No, she doesn't get scheduled for molar trims. It's kind of hard to keep track of the timing. One day she'll be fine and then BOOM. She's lethargic, grinding her teeth and not eating. I suppose this has something to do with rabbits hiding the fact that they don't feel well? To me it seems the more her teeth are shaved, the quicker they grow back though. Maybe I should insist on bringing her in once a month to check the growth of her teeth?
It seems it may be time to look around for a new vet... but there lies a slight problem. There aren't many rabbit savvy vets in my town. There are a few that are a couple of towns over, but I don't drive so getting there would be an issue.

Also doing the aftercare at home sounds like a good idea, but it could still be pretty costly and unfortunately my income is very low at the moment. Actually, the only reason I was able to pay for Belle's vet bills was because my boyfriend gave me the money he had been saving for awhile.

krsbunny- if you don't mind my asking, how much do the molar trims and after-care usually cost you?

 

[naturestee]

Doing your own care- fluids, injections, etc. will save you a lot of money. Hospital stays can be crazy expensive.

Do you have anyone who could give you a ride on a regular basis? Myheart lives 30 minutes from my city and saves money (and gets a better vet to boot) by driving here for her rabbits. For example, a basic clinic visit before any procedures is around $50 from her other vet, around $20 at mine. Don't get jealous but... a molar trim for me (or either of Myheart's buns) is usually around $50 depending on how much time the surgery took. I know Treasured Friend pays several hundred for the same dental work at a vet in Milwaukee, an hour away (and much larger city). So it can really pay to shop around if you can. Just remember price isn't everything too- if the new vet is less experienced/knowledgeable than your current one you wouldn't be helping anything.

If you go back through your calender or vet bill dates, how often does Belle get dental problems? That might be the first thing to look at. Some rabbits might need a monthly check. See if the vet can knock the price down on the check as it's just a mouth-only checkup, not a full checkup which would take longer.

 

[Maureen Las]

Just wanted to clarify about Beau and his molar removal
Last summer I attempted to save the long trip to Madison by having a vet dentist in training in MN. do his teeth rather the dentist . She pulled 5 lower molars (I am not sure if they were infected but they were growing in weird directions)
This is the surgery that I thought he might not recover from as his jaw became very swollen, he lost weight and I just thought it was too much for him

The dentist (my other hero besides Randy) ended up having to see him last month anyway because of an eye infection that I thought was related to the teeth extractions .

The dentist ( Bill Gengler) who has never removed a molar that was not loose or extremely infected was a little disappointed to see those 5 teeth gone as it will never be possible for Beau to ever chew again on that side plus the upper teeth will get no grinding. that means I will be going to have his teeth done a lot more.


Kathy

I am very interested in your thoughts on not pulling molars. I never knew that and I think a lot of people don't.My good dentist only removed infected teeth but in my mind I wished that Beau had no teeth as he eats gruel anyway and this type of rabbit is an unbelievable financial drain. We are talking $600.00- $700.00 dollars a visit and the max visit was over $1200

Since he has so much infection in his mouth, periodontal disease, gum infections ; I really thought that he would do better with no teeth..considering the terrible problems that he had with them.

The vet dentist in training said that she went extremely slow so that she would not break his jaw. and she didn't.

I am more concerned re. his age 5.5 years and the tremendous stress of the surgery on him but was not really knowledgeable re his jaw breaking.

Chandie
i hi-jacked the thread but all of this does pertain to Belle anyway

I know that Angela (naturstee in southeast Wi) doesn't pay the extremely high rates that I do . The 'good" dentist is a professor of animal dentistry at the the University of Madison.

I really thought it was Ok for a rabbit to have no teeth under certain conditions.

 

[krsbunny]

Wow... $50 for teeth. It has been a long time since I've gotten out of a vet's officefor $50. It runs $175-$200 with Dr. Allan... closer to $100 for the vet I used two weeks ago. The latter included a bag of fluids as I had opened my last bag. Most vet visits include picking up some "basic" supplies like that.

Most of my guys can go 4-6 months between (some longer). However... I had 3 that needed teeth in Nov/Dec. The high cost of being a "lop bigot" <gr>

Kathy

 

[Maureen Las]

Kathy


"lop bigot"



I have2 lops and 5 erect eared rescues.

I am scared of lops; Beau is a lop; all my money has been spent on those cute little pushed in faces

(*Did you read my post re. molars right above your last one?)

Maureen

 

[ChandieLee]

$1200!? That's insane....
Poor Beau and poor you...

I did some digging and found some of the vet bill receipts. It seems that Belle's molar's were in need of a trimming every 2-1/2 months. Seeming as how the last time Belle's molars were shaved was around Christmas time, I'd say she's due in at the vet's... or over-due by the looks of her. That's something I don't understand. She was seemingly fine yesterday. She was even running around and trying to rip open her food bag... how is that she fell so quickly? Right now, Belle is in her cage, laying down with her ears lying flat on her back. She just doesn't look comfortable. I gave her meloxicam for the pain, but is there anything else I can do to help ease it? For the record, I also syringe fed her some critical care and watered down apple juice, which contained no sugar. I offered her some greens, but she's far from interested in them.

As far as prices go, I looked at one of the receipts and the cost of her molar shaving was $120.00. The cost of the anesthetic, isoflurane, was seperate, costing $45.

In a few hours, about 7, I'll be calling a few different vets offices in and near my area.
Here's to hoping I can get some help for her.

 

[Maureen Las]

Beau has never had symptoms that were sudden with teeth. it all came on slowly but that's not the way that I have heard others describe it.
it"s possible that Belle has some other problem that isn't a molar spur also. Maybe she is uncomfortable from her GI symptoms and also her teeth


The $1200.00 was the first visit with Beauwhen the dentist had to do everything ; it was less after that .
everytime he needs to go I have a huge fight with my husband about spending that kind of money on a rabbit.
Beau and his teeth have caused much marital discord in this home

 

[Flashy]

My first signs for spurs have always been gut slowdown. I can feel the gut and feel that it is slightly harder and tenser than normal. At that point they go to the vets and they have never had a spur cut into their mouth, it is just the point that the rabbit starts to feel uncomfortable. At that point I also give Metacam.

Maybe you could start to get to know Belle's gut and what a good gut feels like, what an unhappy gut feels like. Maybe a vet could teach you and show you what to look for, then, when you notice those changes you can get her booked in ASAP and that should mean she shouldn't have to go through stasis and an addmissions everytime because that's so emotionally and financially draining for you, and scary for her too.

 

[naturestee]

Loki's molar pain seemed very sudden. I think it's something like the hair that broke the camel's back- it slowly increases and he hides the pain until it reaches a certain threshold, then BOOM! I was pretty surprised to find his stasis was caused by molar problems as it was so sudden. He had been eating everything normally- aka like a pig. Hay, pellets, veggies of all types and hardness. Dancing for his food like Snoopy.

He does have overgrown molar roots, which might be the cause of that. The vet thinks the roots are more of a problem than his small spurs. Maybe the roots don't hurt until spurs cause him to chew differently?

I haven't had a stasis issue since the first time, as the regularly scheduled checkups and dentals have prevented that.

Forget lops, Dutch around here seem to have lots ofdental problems. Wierd since they have such anormal-shaped mouth. My Loki and Myheart's Patrick and Luna are all Dutches, very doubtful they're from the same source and they all have different colors and somewhat different body shapes. Plus Haley's Max, over in Michigan. Although any maloccluded buns at the shelter have been lops so far that I've seen.

I like to give simethicone and fresh mint (or basil or any other mint-family herb) to any bun with stasis issues. The slowing gut causes gas to build up which is uncomfortable, and the mint eases tummy pains. You could try offering or syringing herbal mint tea if she won't eat the fresh greens, just check the ingredients first to make sure it's all mint.