Babette has a cough/phlegm

[Maureen Las]

Babette , my mini-lop female is 7 1/2 yrs old . In the past couple years she has had respiratory infections a few times which cleared up nicely with baytril or Ciprofloxicin.

Most of the time it is either in her throat , or chest or both.

I have had a sore throat for a week and now ,today, I find Babette clearing her throat. (I know that she couldn't have caught it from me but...)

I had to take her to an emergency vet once several yrs back and I have injectable baytril that has an 09 exp. date.
I never refrigerated this stuff so I am afraid to give it to her.
I did give her some of Beau's Cipro. I know this isn't ideal but I do know that this is what both her vets would give her if she went in. I won't take her until tomorrow

What I would like to know is if injectable baytril needs to be refriderated and if it wasn't should it be discarded. The baytril was packaged in individual syringes for Babette awhile back and has been kept in a warmish kitchen.

 

[naturestee]

http://www.drugs.com/vet/baytril-100-can.html

Do not store below 4°C or above 30°C. Protect from direct sunlight.

30 C = 86 F

As far as I am aware, a medication that has been kept too warm will be less effective but should not be dangerous. However, as you know I am not a vet or a pharmacist so take that with a grain of salt.

Nose rubs to the lovely Babette!

 

[Maureen Las]

I'm not givin her the baytril..if something happened I would feel terrible.

Next question..the vet ( emergency vet)who gave me the injectable baytril last year told me to give it IM. I was able to do it because I am (was) an RN .

Since that time I have read that injectable baytril works a lot better than oral plus doesn't cause the stomach problems but I think I also read that if you give it IM the rabbit could get sterile abscesses.
Now tomorrow I can go either to the IM vet or the vet that will give me oral ciprofloxicin
last time I gave her 5 days of injectable and probably 7 days of oral (went to 2 vets.)

Does any one know any more about giving this stuff IM? or what I should do

I basically don't trust either of them 100%

 

[naturestee]

IM= intramuscular, right? Any idea if it can be given subcutaneously? I thought it could.

 

[Maureen Las]

Intramuscular. ..I don't know if it can be given sq..I'll ask that on Eb

 

[naturestee]

I did a Google search and found some references to using it sub-q, but nothing like a drug manufacturer site or vet article.

 

[Maureen Las]

The reply I got stated that ALL routes are effective.

The oral route is fine
The intramuscular route is good because it will cause the highest levels in the bloodstream
The subqutaneous route is fine but it can create sterile abscesses if the baytril is not diluted with sterile saline.

I think that I'cll call the vet that gives the intramuscular and let everyone know how she is tomorrow.

I have to go to Chicago on Tues and I absolutely HATE HATE HATE to be gone all day when one of the rabbits is sick. :grumpy:

 

[cmh9023]

Sherry takes Baytril orally twice and day and sees it as the highpoint of the day!! It's basically her very favorite "treat". Goes absolutely crazy for it. It's apple flavored. So...if giving it IM proves to be difficult try the liquid version...apparently it's great!!

Cara

Sorry to hear she's not feeling well.

 

[Maureen Las]

Cara

You just gave me an idea.... if I did get the liquid I could get it flavored at the pharmacy that I get Beau's at..never thought of that.

usually it is unflavored or I have to break up and grind the pieces of tablets.
Southwest Wi is more primitive than south east Wi.

I know that I won't offend anyone because no one from this site lives nesr me

 

[Haley]

Maureen, as far as I know your Baytril should be fine. Ive never refridgerated injectable Baytril unless it was mixed with flavoring (the flavoring needs to be kept cool).

And Ive only ever given injectible Baytril orally. If you have the pharmacy compound it it will taste yummy. If they wont you can mix it with a little grenadine.

If youre really nervous, take the baytril with you to the vets and ask him. I think he'll tell you to go ahead and use it.

Hope Babette is well soon!

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

Few things on enrofloxacins...the bacteria that usually causes upper respiratory infections....pasteurella...is becoming increasingly resistant to that family of drugs. Inmy experiences here with very sick rabbits....Bayrtil or a related drug will work maybe twice...three times if you are lucky...before the bacteria becomes resistant. Zithromax is much more effective. But a few comments on using that class of drugs...Baytril in particular but all enrofloxacinsare similar. The drug is more effective when injected. It can be injected SQ or IM. The pH in the GI seems to have some negative effect in some cases. Oral abxcanalso have a negative effect on the intestinal flora. The possibility of skin abscesses is the same either way as with any injection so the decision should be on what is best for the rabbit. From my experience....it seems SQ is less uncomfortable than IM. I inject every medication that I possibly can....less stress on the bun and I know the correct dosing isthere....and have injected thousands of times and have never had any skin abscess at all. I do not dilute Baytril. For those of you interested in flavoring....we bought FlavorX at our local Wal-Mart. It can be found usually with the children's medication. The Baytril "Taste Tabs" are liver flavored and there is nothing you can do to make those things taste better.

Baytril and that family of drugs are second tier treatment here. I run into way too much resistant bacteria. There are much more effective drugs that are just as safe or safer than Baytril. The only species I use Baytril as a first line treatment is squirrels and some birds....I don't even use Baytril in cottontails.

Oh...and to answer your question on storing injectable Baytril....at room temperature. Don't expect to see much info from vets or from Bayer since the use of Baytril in rabbits is "off label". That means that it has not been government approved for use in rabbits and vets use it at their own risk. I think you know that the correct diagnosis should involved a culture to establish exactly what pathogen you are working with. And I wouldn't assume that it's an upper respiratory infection since there are other issues...dental is one...that can closely mimic symptoms of a URI.

Best wishes to Babette for a quick recovery.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

Hey Randy

I think that you are on the cutting edge with your ideas and practice of medication..problem is that vets (here)will generally dismiss what they are not familar with. Most of them are not open to new ideas but are only comfortable within the parameters of their own past education or lack the curiousity or time to learn more.

There is one vet fairly close to me ((Winona Mn) that I have seen one time who seems to want to learn (I was telling her about bicillin and she was interested) but I can't go there tomorrow .

I don't have very much choice where I am .

Babette has been with me since she was about 8 weeks old and has hadalmost no health problems her entire life.
I think the respiratory problems (which don't occur often) are probably related to her aging.

Because she has had very little medication in her life I would guess that baytril or Cipro or some of the common meds probably are effectice with her.

it is her partner Beau (Mr Dental patient ) who needs a vet with a superior knowledge of antibiotics as he has been on meds almost constantly for over year.

he is the one who is going to become drug resistant.

I wish I had your knowledge,and expertise so I could treat my own animals but I don't..and that sucks..but your knowledge helps a lotThanks

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

A lot of this info is available on several networks that are used by vets....all the doctor has to do is make the initiative to look. And yes, some of my treatments are "cutting edge" and some vets are reluctant to take a chance. But when things don't work....a good doctor will look "outside the box". If I can do this research and learn things then so should a real doctor since I am nowhere close to the intelligence of a trained doctor. Since there is very little real research going on with rabbits....it is the few doctors that have the urge to find something new that are developing new treatments. But the info is there. My vet is going to validate some of my treatments for treating an abscess without surgery. It will be out there for the professionals to see and use. And your vet that is interested in using bicillin....see if she will contact me and I will explain what the treatment is. And a side note....just a personal observation...is that generally female doctors are much more open to new ideas. Nothing scientific to that....just an observation. It's a shame that so many doctors prefer to take the traditional route....even if that route is being proven wrong. I can tell you that many of the new class of vets coming up are doing so with an open mind and willing to look at new ideas. And I know that first hand since my animals are seen by senior vet students during their clinicals. There are a lot of fantastic minds and a lot of talent coming out of the vet schools and they are in tune with the times. Now...as you are seeing....if we could get some of the "old" school vets into the modern world.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

I have really been through hell!

I made an appt with a specific vet on Mon. and was already in the examining room when they told me that he had just gone into emergency surgery and that i could see Dr __..."he sees rabbits." This guy didn't even know how to examine her..he did not examine my rabbit...all he did was listen to me tell him how she had been treated for the same disorder previously.Babette actually sounded like an old fashioned coffee percolator when she was breathing at the vets.

he placed her on oral Ciprofloxicin and gave her 40 mg 2times per day. I thought this was too much for a 5.4 lb rabbit and so did a few other people so I am giving her about 25 mg 2 times perday.

She is improving a lot. I had to go to Chicago yesterday and was gone the entire day. I was worried that I couldn't observe her intake and output and eating and everything but she is doing much better.

I had decided to take her to another vet today but since she is bettter I'll go one day at a time.

I am so tired of not being able to trust my rabbit vets (except Dr Gengler the dentist)

But I AM VERY HAPPY that babette is improving.

 

[Haley]

Im glad to hear shes ok. Thats so frustrating about the vets. Sometimes I feel like I know more than they do. *sigh*

Im not sure about the meds, Ive never used Cipro in bunnies before. When I check the Sharky's Drug Calculator, it is showing up as 50mg as the mean recommended dose, but I can never figure that thing out.

 

[Maureen Las]

Are you looking at lbs?

 

[Haley]

Oh youre right! I had it on kg. Now it says 24.50 mg as the mean recommended.

 

[Maureen Las]

I think the Dr. figured it out with kgs tooinstead of lbs.

She is way better ,eating a whole lot and breathing better.
Beau keeps humping her because she is not grooming him yet so I had to put him beside her
I just hope that all continues to go well.

I moved them (Babette and beau) out of the rabbit room and into the room with the big exercise pen.

Now I am having trouble finding space to exercise Ernie from the shelter and Gabriel. The other rabbits despise any male who is not neutered.

You should see this house.

A rabbit person could understand it totally but a 'regular" person would definitely think some kid of nut lives here.

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

I had to chime in again here.Cipro is in the Flouroquinolone family....same as Baytril.I don't normally do this....but standard dosing for Cipro is 5-15 mg/kg by mouth twice a day. A drug calculation is weight times dosing divided by concentration of the drug. You can easily calculate the correct dosing by knowing the above items. The concentration of the drug will depend on if it's in the suspensionform or was compounded. That concentration should be listed on the label. Cipro is nothing to play with as it is a serious drug. If the dosing you are giving is too small, the bacteria will become resistant and you will have a worse problem down the road. Cipro is very rough on the GI so that is something you are going to have to watch carefully. Long term....it will damage cartilage in the joints. It can also have negative reactions with numerous other drugs. If you have questions about the dosing...by all means give thevet a call and ask. If nothing else, it will further demonstrate your concern for your rabbit. Just because it doesn't sound right doesn't mean it's not right. Not trying to be rude or pushy here....just interested in your rabbit's well being.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

The prescription was called into a compounding pharmacist who flavored it. It doesn't need refrigeration so I think that is a suspension.

This is what the bottle reads


Give .5ml(40mg) by mouth twice a day for 3 weeks
Ciprofloxicin 80mg/ml

I wouldn't call this vet because I don't trust this vet. He did not even examine her. I got him by accident..I had an appt with another one.