Babette has a cough/phlegm

[ra7751]

Hi,

I am really overstepping where I should be here since I am not a vet...but this seems to be a "special situation". Calculating your bun's stated weight, the dosing protocol of Cipro and the concentration of the compounding...the high end dose would be .45cc twice a day. I would not have a problem with the .5 since dosing from syringes is not exact and some will be drooled out during administering. Try to make sure this drug is dosed as close to 12 hours apart as possible and make sure you give the prescribed dosage for the full run ...generally 7-10 days....but I would follow the vet's instructions for three weeks unless you have a drastic GI problem...but don't stop the drug without consulting a vet first. This drug will most likely result in a GI upset.....if you can get some Critical Care....use it. If not, it would not be a bad idea to use some Bene-Bac (which can be purchased at most pet stores) to assist the GI flora to remain as stable as possible. Do not use any other drugs or herbal supplementswhile using Cipro without consulting with a vet first. There are some serious contradictions with some other drugs. Try to get as much hay eaten as possible which will also assist the GI tract. And, as always, watch the hydration.

And I would give a call to the pharmacist just to make sure it doesn't need to be refrigerated...it depends on the compounding agent used. Hope this helps.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

I ended up calling the veterinary clinic I took her to and talking to the vet that I originally wanted to see ..he said that the right dosage was .5 but I didn't know if he was just trying to back up his associate.
If she is getting better on .25mg 2 times per dayand .45 mgis the high end dose why do I have to give her the high end dose if she has improved drastically? It is not like .25mg is below the normal dose.

I don't want to affect her GI tract and I am already giving her lactobacillus so why the hi-end dose.?

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

The reasoning behind the high end dosage is due to the way rabbits work. Infections are more difficult to treat with them. And, the pH in the GI tract can inhibit the work of the antibiotics. With wildlife, and I treat the domestics the exact same, we use a "loading" dose that is higher than the standard dosing and then back down to the mid-high range dosing. Dosing for Baytril is the same as Cipro and I always (when I use this family of drugs) use the high end range. I call it using the "big guns". You want an all out attack against the bacteria and the idea is to get the blood levels of the drug up to working levels as quickly as possible and keep them there for the duration of the treatment. The most likely cause of this concern in your rabbit is an infection caused by the pathogen pasteurella multocida. Old school people call it "snuffles". It is not possible to cure it since it is present in the respiratory systems of nearly all warm blooded animals including birds and humans. The idea behind the higher drug dosage is to "put the genie back into the bottle" by overwhelming it...get it into a type of remission so the bun's own immune system can control the bacteria.

As far as the dosing causing a GI upset...doesn't matter if it's the high dose or the low dose....it get the GI bacteria that is sensitive first since the GI is where the drug goes. That is why I prefer antibiotics that can be injected...but that isn't always possible. If you are using lactobacillus acidophilus...I think you would probably get better results overall with Critical Care. It's not the bacteria from the acidophilus that does the good....it changes the pH in the gut to provide a more favorable envirionment for the good bacteria to grow. The really good stuff that helps the most is lactobacillus casei.

I would stick with the dosing as suggested by the vets. She may appear to be getting better but remember that bacteria doesn't want to die and will fight back. I have had some bacteria post a major counter attack against my treatments by using a too low dosing. Bacteria has an "immune" system so to speak. That is why penicillin is virtually useless in the human medicine where it once was hailed as a "miracle drug"...and it was until it was misued. That allowed the bacteria to develop an immunity to it...and that is what happens when antibiotics are not used at the correct dosing for the prescirbed amount of time. And resistant bacteria are extrememly difficult to treat....and the antibiotics that can be used in a rabbit are limited. So the best way to eliminate the chance of a resistant bacteria is to treat it properly...and by the book, the dosing the vet prescribed is correct.

It's a very complicated thing. I have been guilty of stopping antibiotics myself because I felt better....and now I have a resistant bacteria myself. I do my best to stay to proper protocols when using antibiotics.

Randy

 

[Maureen Las]

Randy ..you have convinced me..you gave me a total explanation which I have failed to get from any of the vets here.(except maybe the new female vet in Winona)
Don't worry about overstepping your boundaries with me as I do not trust what most of my vets tell me and usually go to the internet with my concerns

I am definitely not in a rabbit saavy environment.
i will increase the dose to what was prescribed and just follow her closely

Thanks so much for your advice as I am in over my head a lot of the time but old time RO members know that I try hard considering what I have to work with.


the probiotic I have is acidopilus, bifudim and longum . Thisis a high quality product for humans. I also have bene-bac which I can use if it is a better choice.
Once again thank you for your time ,knowledge and concerns.

I am an absolute wreck when my rabbits are sick so this helps a lot.
I will keep everyone posted on babette

Right now she is eating up a storm. Hay, pellets, greens everything ..so things are better here.

 

[ra7751]

Hope the info I provided helps. And as I have mentioned on previous threads....female vets are much better at listening and explaining things than male vets. Nearly all my vets are female. Don't have to deal with the "macho" type stuff.

Randy

 

[Ivory]

LOL RANDY! I also find that to be INCREDIBLY true. If Erik or Ivory ever have a problem that Dad can't handle (he can handle most things but saves the really tough cases for the university) my vet of choice is a woman who is absolutely wonderful with rabbits. I know another who is male and very good, but really, I find that women vets are just...better at it, as far as the actual "people-person" part of it goes.

 

[Haley]

Maureen, how is Babette doing? I was thinking of her and Beau today (especially when I was reading the "bunnies who are special to you thread"). I forgot to add them to my list but I think of them often.

Hope shes doing ok this weekend.

 

[Maureen Las]

I just posted on Eb but am going to repeat most of the exact post.


My mini-lop (7 1/2 yrs.) has been treated for over a month for a lower respiratory infection which most likely was "brewing" for while before it manifested itself into something bigger. She had seemed quieter with no other symptoms.

She initailly began making noises (as in clearing phelgm from throat There is no sneezing no discharge of any kind.)I took her to the vet immediately and since the schedueled vet had emergency surgery I got someone not particularly rabbit saavy. By the time she got to the vet she sounded like an old fashioned coffee percolator when she breathes. . He gave me Ciprofloxicin 4o mg po bid which at the time seemed like an emormous dose. After talking to another vet and reading Randy's posts I proceeded to give her the oral meds for 3 weeks. During the last days of the tx I noticed that she Still cleared her throat occasionally which I interpreted as a bad sign..as it made me suspicious that the infection was still present although much improved.

Because of that I saw another vet who gave me IM baytril which she has been on 4 days . I am comfortable giving it but somewhat concerned about rotaion of sites as I can't find too many due to the fact that she is 5.5lbs and not at all overweight.

I plan on continuing the baytril as even yesterday I could here a slight sigh or squeak when she drew in a breath after using her waterbottle. So far today I did not hear this

I am trying to look ahead as I remeber randy's post and am concerned that she may (or may not) need a stronger med to kick this.

Randy has said that Zithromax is a more potent drug ( I can order it on-line if I want to) but I have no idea if it should be given po or sq.

What about pen G ..I can get it from farm and Fleet if needed

hell will freeze over before any of the vets in this town will venture beyond baytril..BUT their is a woman vet in Mn that I think is open-minded if given the proper info related to these other drugs.

I cannot take her elsewhere this week but if this does not clear up entirely I will pursue the path of the vet in Mn trying other meds...or if assisted will attempt to treat her myself with guidance from rabbit saavy owners.

Suggestions?

 

[Haley]

poor Babette!

Im not sure about Zithromax, but I dont think PenG is broad spectrum enough to treat a respiratory infection.

I think I would try a different method to get the medication directly to her lungs. Have you checked out our threads on Respiratory Infections in the library? Theres info in there on nebulizers and articles you could print out and take to your vet. I think we used Gentamycin and Mucomyst in the nebulizer to deliver meds directly to his lungs.

You can usually rent nebulizers for a small fee through local pharmacies if your vet will write an RX or you can buy one cheap on Ebay.