Are canine panacur packets safe for bun?

[lauren8165]

My bun has had an infection we have been trying to clear up for over a month now. Last night he took a serious turn for the worse and I think he may have . E. cuniculi. He went to the vet today (for the 5th time since the injury happened) but my vet, bless his heart is just way out of his expertise and isn't very helpful. Even though he tries really hard, we leave the appointment every time with no answers. We didn't get answers at his appointment today either, but I'm almost positive that that's what he has. I read that panacur can help, but since very was closed, I went to Petco to get some of the panacur and they only had the canine one that comes in packets. I am scared to give it to him and kill him, but I'm worried he won't make it if we don't get him help tonight. Is it safe to give him the canine panacur with a lower dose? I am terrified he's not going to make it. [emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]

 

[Watermelons]

If its panacur brand then yes its safe. You just need to make sure you dose your rabbit correctly.
I find vets tend to under dose for EC so just make sure you kick it in the butt.

 

[lauren8165]

It's a the packets with the powder in them for dogs. Would you happen to know how much to give him. He's a little over 5 lbs and the dog packets have 5 grams in them.

 

[Watermelons]

50mg per kg of body weight is what I would likely use.

The powder is a bit of a pain in the butt to dose out as you will either need to split it up while its still powdered. Or create a suspension then figure out how many mg/ml are in the liquid you created

 

[lauren8165]

I am kind of just wanting to sprinkle a little bit of the packet with some water and give it go to him with a syringe. But I'm scared I will give him too much, bc it seems like everyone uses the liquid of paste one. I didn't know how much of the packet to use.

 

[JBun]

I buy the Safeguard goat dewormer liquid. It's essentially the same thing as panacur. The liquid is the easiest way to dose. If you have amazon prime, you could get it in a couple of days. The 125ml bottle is $25 right now. Or if you have a livestock feed store nearby, like Tractor Supply, they usually have it in stock, though it may cost a bit more.

What symptoms is your bun having that make you believe it's EC?

 

[lauren8165]

He can't keep his balance, won't hardly eat or drink, faceing the wall/pushing his face up against the wall and not pooping. I am taking him back to the vet tomorrow. This all started about month ago, he got injured and it got infected. We have been having the hardest time getting rid of the infection and I'm worried it has spread to his brain, since the wound is directly on top of his head. The vet sent us home w another round of oral baytril, baytril drops that go directly on the wound and metacam for the pain, but it doesn't seem to be helping yet.

 

[Watermelons]

What does he weigh? Exact weight please
Ill figure out your dose but theres no guarantees this is ec and medicating as a guess is bad practice

 

[JBun]

I agree that it's possibly not EC. I would be more inclined to believe it's related to the infection. Has the vet had you try any other antibiotics besides the baytril? What dose of metacam are you giving, the concentration of the suspension(0.5 or 1.5mg/ml), and your buns weight? Since your bun isn't eating/drinking well, have you started syringe feeding?

 

[lauren8165]

He weighs 5.1lbs. He's on .5 baytril And .5 of metacam I believe. We are headed back to the vet right now. Woke up with his other eye now swollen shut and discharge in it. I am never seased to be amazed at how quickly things can change with a rabbit. It is insane. He ate a little bit of the pellet/water mix I made by himself last night before that I was syringe feeding it to him. He hasn't pooped in 2 days, but did pee last night. They asked me to come drop him off for the day. I'm assuming because they are busy,but I am beginning to get frustrated, bc I have spent about $700 for thesr vet visits in the past month alone and every time we leave, I feel like we leave with no answers and my bun never has any significant improvement. I am just sick to death about this and was up with him all night long, worried he wasn't going to make it.

 

[lauren8165]

I also have a backstory of what happened to cause all of this on one of my earlier posts. I'm not sure how to share it on this thread, but I haven't posted many threads, so if anyone if wanting a better idea of what's going on, it's there. I'd type it all out here, but it's alot.

 

[Watermelons]

.5 of baytril and .5 of metacam doesnt mean much. Can you photograph the label or box for us?
These meds come in different strengths.
.5ml? 0.5ml... I think my 1lb bird got a bigger dose of both those meds when he was sick. But again we need to know the strength or concentration as these drugs come in many different strengths.

Like the panacur. If we split the pouch in half and add 1/2 the pouch to 10ml of water or applesauce you will end up with a drug that has a strength of 250mg per ml
At your rabbits weight he would get approx 0.5ml per dose.

 

[JBun]

Baytril isn't always the best antibiotic to use on infections in rabbits. And it sounds like if it was working in the beginning, its not anymore since the infection is worsening. I would want the antibiotic changed. A culture and sensitivity test would give you a better idea of which one to use, but I wouldn't want to wait around for the results before switching antibiotics. I'm not going to sugar coat it, your rabbits condition sounds fairly critical, and at this point even changing antibiotics, I'm not sure if it can be turned around. So going ahead and trying another antibiotic is something you'll need to determine if you feel there's still a chance to turn this around, and if your buns quality of life is still there.

So without a culture and sensitivity done, I would want to get my bun on pen g procaine/benzathine injections immediately. It's a combi pen, not just single pen g procaine. Your vet shouldn't charge more than $15-25 for a 100ml bottle. If they do then you can get it online as Combipen or at a livestock feed store. Your vet should show you how to administer the sub q injection. You'll also need the correct syringes and needles. I would want to give the injections every other day at least, possibly every day at the start, based on the info in this study that was done.
http://people.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/jawabscess.html

I would also consider adding in oral azithromycin. Just because you need to hit this pretty hard now, and those two antibiotics seem to be the most effective on head infections.
Here's info on adding in the azithromycin. Randy is an experienced member that used to post on here a while back. If you want to gather more info about using the azithromycin with pen g, just go into his postings. There is some risk with this antibiotic though, as in some rare instances it can cause severe digestive upset. So it's a matter of weighing the risk with the severity of your buns condition now.
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/pen-g-vs-bicillin.29133/

 

[JBun]

With the metacam, if it is the 1.5mg/ml concentration, and you are giving 0.5ml once a day, I would want to at least double that based on the recommended dosing of 0.3-0.6mg/kg once or twice a day(0.7-1.4mg, once or twice a day for a 5.1lb bun) and give 0.5ml every 12 hours, but I would prefer to give the max of 1 ml twice a day. I would want my bun getting the max right now for better inflammation and pain control. It's also possible for your vet to add in something like tramadol if your bun is in significant pain even with being given the metacam.
http://vgr1.com/metacam/

 

[lauren8165]

Baytril isn't always the best antibiotic to use on infections in rabbits. And it sounds like if it was working in the beginning, its not anymore since the infection is worsening. I would want the antibiotic changed. A culture and sensitivity test would give you a better idea of which one to use, but I wouldn't want to wait around for the results before switching antibiotics. I'm not going to sugar coat it, your rabbits condition sounds fairly critical, and at this point even changing antibiotics, I'm not sure if it can be turned around. So going ahead and trying another antibiotic is something you'll need to determine if you feel there's still a chance to turn this around, and if your buns quality of life is still there.

So without a culture and sensitivity done, I would want to get my bun on pen g procaine/benzathine injections immediately. It's a combi pen, not just single pen g procaine. Your vet shouldn't charge more than $15-25 for a 100ml bottle. If they do then you can get it online as Combipen or at a livestock feed store. Your vet should show you how to administer the sub q injection. You'll also need the correct syringes and needles. I would want to give the injections every other day at least, possibly every day at the start, based on the info in this study that was done.
http://people.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/jawabscess.html

I would also consider adding in oral azithromycin. Just because you need to hit this pretty hard now, and those two antibiotics seem to be the most effective on head infections.
Here's info on adding in the azithromycin. Randy is an experienced member that used to post on here a while back. If you want to gather more info about using the azithromycin with pen g, just go into his postings. There is some risk with this antibiotic though, as in some rare instances it can cause severe digestive upset. So it's a matter of weighing the risk with the severity of your buns condition now.
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/pen-g-vs-bicillin.29133/

Wow! You really sound very educated and I'm freaking out, because I am really losing confidence in my vet. He is really trying to help, but it's getting critical.

They just called and said he didn't see anything other than a small case of conjunctivitis and is sending us home with Cipro drops,but I just have a gut feeling that that's not right. I am about to head there to pick him and I want to mention the meds you suggested. Can you tell me exactly what to ask for? I know he's in critical condition and needs more than just eye drops. Idk if he will make it, but I have to keep trying and I think that risks of the meds are worth it, bc idk if he will survive if he doesn't take something strong.

 

[JBun]

Baytril is ok to start for a basic infection, but when that infection isn't responding and/or is worsening, a vet should be willing to look at other options. The problem is vets that aren't very experienced with rabbits, will sometimes be nervous about trying other antibiotics because they believe that it will cause fatal gut disruption. In some instances some antibiotics can, such as penicillin if given orally can prove fatal. But usually pen g given by injection is relatively safe, and only rarely does it cause gut problems.

The antibiotics are pen g procaine/benzathine and azithromycin. I would print out the study I posted above, to show to your vet. Giving the azithromycin in addition to the pen g is just based on reading others reports of using it for infections. So it's up to you and your vet about using both, but I would in the very least do the pen g injections, as well as increasing the metacam dosage, and possibly adding in tramadol if there is still signs of uncontrolled pain. Here are
some links on azithromycin use in rabbits if you need it to show your vet. I'll try and find some more too.
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/Azithromycin.htm
http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Common_drug_dosages_for_rabbits
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

 

[lauren8165]

Ok, so he said he has conjunctivitis. I don't know if that's correct. He sent us home with Cipro eye drops. I asked about the meds you suggested and he said baytril is stronger. I just feel so helpless there because they never give me answers and I leave there feeling like I'm not getting my bunny the help he needs to spending so so much money. I called around today and got pricing at a bunch of other exotic vets and explained buns case to them, so I could be sure I would have a vet that really knew what he was doing. I feel bad, because Dr. White is so very kind and does care, but like I've said, I just don't think he has much experience with rabbits. I think his experience with them doesn't go beyond vaccines and wellness exams.

I just gave him his nighttime dose of baytril, cirpo eye drops, baytril drops on the wound. I also ended up giving him another dose of metacam, because he is currently in pain and pressing his eye against the wall. Does that sound normal for a case of conjunctivitis? I don't know how much longer I can sit here and watch him be in this much pain. If he won't get better I will make the decision to have him put to sleep, even though that will kill me beyond words. I'm one of those people who are abnormally close to my animals and am severely affected when I lose one. I have a feeling alot of you guys can relate.

I'm babbling, because I'm kind of panicked about all of this, so does anyone have any advice or thoughts on all of this?

 

[lauren8165]

.5 of baytril and .5 of metacam doesnt mean much. Can you photograph the label or box for us?
These meds come in different strengths.
.5ml? 0.5ml... I think my 1lb bird got a bigger dose of both those meds when he was sick. But again we need to know the strength or concentration as these drugs come in many different strengths.

Like the panacur. If we split the pouch in half and add 1/2 the pouch to 10ml of water or applesauce you will end up with a drug that has a strength of 250mg per ml
At your rabbits weight he would get approx 0.5ml per dose.

Wow! You really sound very educated and I'm freaking out, because I am really losing confidence in my vet. He is really trying to help, but it's getting critical.

They just called and said he didn't see anything other than a small case of conjunctivitis and is sending us home with Cipro drops,but I just have a gut feeling that that's not right. I am about to head there to pick him and I want to mention the meds you suggested. Can you tell me exactly what to ask for? I know he's in critical condition and needs more than just eye drops. Idk if he will make it, but I have to keep trying and I think that risks of the meds are worth it, bc idk if he will survive if he doesn't take something strong.

 

[lauren8165]

.5 of baytril and .5 of metacam doesnt mean much. Can you photograph the label or box for us?
These meds come in different strengths.
.5ml? 0.5ml... I think my 1lb bird got a bigger dose of both those meds when he was sick. But again we need to know the strength or concentration as these drugs come in many different strengths.

Like the panacur. If we split the pouch in half and add 1/2 the pouch to 10ml of water or applesauce you will end up with a drug that has a strength of 250mg per ml
At your rabbits weight he would get approx 0.5ml per dose.

I'm sorry I'm not good at dosing AT ALL. I just posted the pics of everything he's taking. The oral baytril label was curved, so I posted 2 pics of it.

 

[lauren8165]

Sorry for all the posting, but there's no concentration of the medicine on the labels. Only on the Cipro drops.