Another Bonding thread question

[user 35607]

It's been almost 3 weeks now - we got another boy from the HRS to try with our girl (the first one didn't work out - way too rough with her). These two don't seem interested in each other at all. From day one when they get next to each other they nip and fight. When they're more than a foot apart, they don't seem interested at all. Their enclosures are next to each other and there's no "mimicking" or any sign of interest in each other.

We're willing to go as long as it takes but we want ot make sure we're not wasting our time here - seeing as niether seems interested in the other, is this something that can develop? We had a zoom call with a HRS person last week who gave us a couple tips but it's making no difference. If they get within a couple inches during the "dates" they fight.

Thank you.

 

[Jmoore135]

Hey there! We’re just starting our bonding sessions over here too. I just responded on the other thread you commented on as well but I wanted to share more of what I think is helping us over here, because I was feeling like the bonding would never start with my two just last week as well. I’m not even sure this bond will definitely be successful but so far we’re seeing major improvements every day. This is my first time bonding two rabbits btw. Before starting the bonding sessions we had them living side by side with about a foot gap in-between their cages because they were biting ‘em each other through the bars (one even lost a toe) but we swapped the bunnies every day (only the bunny, everything inside the cage stays the same) this way they get super used to being in each others space. Also making sure they face each other while eating every meal. Bonding sessions in small spaces were a nightmare for us so we went with large spaces for two days and then just decided to let them run around the whole house instead of being confined. The first time was a little stressful because of the fear that they would fight in a space that I wouldn’t be able to separate them but this didn’t happen once. Mostly because the less dominant rabbit realized quickly what her place was once they had the freedom to assert their positions in the relationship(I think) but now, while they’re running free in the house, there are times I find them sitting next to each other grooming themselves and binkying over each other still with an occasional nip in the butt but no fur even being pulled anymore. Are your sessions taking place in a neutral space in the house? Is it a large or small space? I always bring them from their cages into the area I’m letting them be in together in a small basket. That might help too, like a mini trauma bond with very little trauma? They definitely don’t like the basket (or carrier) but I don’t wobble it or make it scary. Still, they just huddle up together for a moment before I let them out into the space.

 

[JBun]

Whether or not there's hope depends on what behavior they're showing when interacting, and if they've had a real fight with real biting, or if it's just been minor scuffles with some chasing, nipping, mounting.

Have they had a true fight that has escalated into a bunny 'tornado' and actual clamping down biting(not just nips)? Are they circling, are there tails raised or ears pinned back?

Their body language is very important in determining how to proceed, when to intervene, when to stop things before serious injuries occur, and if they might not be a compatible match for each other.

I would suggest doing a bit of reading up on rabbit bonding and body language. Watching bonding videos can be helpful to better understand what behaviors that show progress, and what signs of escalating aggression looks like so you know when to stop things. Understanding rabbits body language is so important in this whole process, especially knowing the signs of escalating aggression. Because if these aren't recognized early and some intervention done, things can worsen very quickly, to the point that there could be injuries and there will be no chance of a bond working out.

Here are a few links that have some good info on bonding, and some on rabbit behavior.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html
http://www.cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding_rabbits_together
http://language.rabbitspeak.com/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_your_rabbit

 

[user 35607]

Whether or not there's hope depends on what behavior they're showing when interacting, and if they've had a real fight with real biting, or if it's just been minor scuffles with some chasing, nipping, mounting.

Have they had a true fight that has escalated into a bunny 'tornado' and actual clamping down biting(not just nips)? Are they circling, are there tails raised or ears pinned back?

Their body language is very important in determining how to proceed, when to intervene, when to stop things before serious injuries occur, and if they might not be a compatible match for each other.

I would suggest doing a bit of reading up on rabbit bonding and body language. Watching bonding videos can be helpful to better understand what behaviors that show progress, and what signs of escalating aggression looks like so you know when to stop things. Understanding rabbits body language is so important in this whole process, especially knowing the signs of escalating aggression. Because if these aren't recognized early and some intervention done, things can worsen very quickly, to the point that there could be injuries and there will be no chance of a bond working out.

Here are a few links that have some good info on bonding, and some on rabbit behavior.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html
http://www.cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding_rabbits_together
http://language.rabbitspeak.com/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_your_rabbit

I've watched tons of videos. What sucks is a lot of them say the opposite of each other. A lot of contradicting advice which is why I dont want to watch any more videos. My wife is on the bunny bonding facebook page too which also had contridicting opinions.

The fighting never gets to the tornado part beuase we break it up but I feel it would if we didn't stop it. They can stand a foot apart but once either gets close the fighting and nipping starts, someone loses fur and we break it up. Neither bunny seems interested in the other. Their enclosures are six inches apart and they do not mimick each other in their cages (which last boy here did have that but he was too rough with her). She takes a "stance" in the bonding sessions when they get close like she's going to attack. We're coming up on three weeks and the only progress we've had is last night one of them flopped down and stretched out while they were bonding - the other just sat there watching (she did not flop down or look comfortable). We are willing to go as long as it takes but just don't want to waste time if it seems there is no hope with this pair.

 

[Blue eyes]

Sometimes you need to rely on your gut. If you really feel it isn't going to work out, then it probably is not. I have been in your shoes and have had a female that was extremely picky about what other rabbit she would accept. She rejected two other fixed males before finally deciding she liked the third.

If you've been watching random youtube videos on bonding, there's no surprise you're getting contradicting advice. Many of those are by inexperienced rabbit keepers who themselves are new to bonding. The cottontails link that @JBun linked above (which is also referenced in the rabbitsindoors link) has the best advice I've seen. They are a rabbit rescue and have loads of experience with many, many rabbits, so their advice is sound.

With my difficult girl, I found that neutral territory was absolutely critical. I had to have the bonding sessions occur in a room she had never, ever, ever been in before. Had I done that with the first attempted bondmate, I believe they would have ultimately bonded. He was so laid back. But females can be particularly territorial and she was determined to keep any new rabbit away from "her space." It took many weeks in that neutral territory before I considered her bonded with that 3rd male. I then kept them in that same area for an additional week or two in order to more firmly establish that bond. Only then did I bring them both back downstairs to what was her former area. I kept them confined initially and only gradually expanded the space to prevent territorial disputes (which can happen if they are given too much space too soon).

Another thought to consider with your girl (and which is explained in the rabbitsindoors link above) is to go with the immersion method of bonding rather the gradual method (doing short sessions). This is what I found worked better for my stubborn girl. My prior bondings with other rabbit pairs I had had were either short sessions or, in one lucky case, an instant bond. But the immersion method may be something to consider. Again, though, I'd encourage you to trust your gut instincts when deciding about how they are (or are not) progressing. If you have to try yet another potential, then so be it. I had to do that as well and it did finally work out with a successful bond.

 

[user 35607]

Sometimes you need to rely on your gut. If you really feel it isn't going to work out, then it probably is not. I have been in your shoes and have had a female that was extremely picky about what other rabbit she would accept. She rejected two other fixed males before finally deciding she liked the third.

If you've been watching random youtube videos on bonding, there's no surprise you're getting contradicting advice. Many of those are by inexperienced rabbit keepers who themselves are new to bonding. The cottontails link that @JBun linked above (which is also referenced in the rabbitsindoors link) has the best advice I've seen. They are a rabbit rescue and have loads of experience with many, many rabbits, so their advice is sound.

With my difficult girl, I found that neutral territory was absolutely critical. I had to have the bonding sessions occur in a room she had never, ever, ever been in before. Had I done that with the first attempted bondmate, I believe they would have ultimately bonded. He was so laid back. But females can be particularly territorial and she was determined to keep any new rabbit away from "her space." It took many weeks in that neutral territory before I considered her bonded with that 3rd male. I then kept them in that same area for an additional week or two in order to more firmly establish that bond. Only then did I bring them both back downstairs to what was her former area. I kept them confined initially and only gradually expanded the space to prevent territorial disputes (which can happen if they are given too much space too soon).

Another thought to consider with your girl (and which is explained in the rabbitsindoors link above) is to go with the immersion method of bonding rather the gradual method (doing short sessions). This is what I found worked better for my stubborn girl. My prior bondings with other rabbit pairs I had had were either short sessions or, in one lucky case, an instant bond. But the immersion method may be something to consider. Again, though, I'd encourage you to trust your gut instincts when deciding about how they are (or are not) progressing. If you have to try yet another potential, then so be it. I had to do that as well and it did finally work out with a successful bond.

Looks like the immersion thing is definitely not for us. I'm going through these links a coule I've seen before, one link does not work, a couple others I've sent to my wife, it just appears to be info we've seen before, I'm not finding any new info here but thank you.

We will try for a couple more weeks with this boy, if it's the same in two weeks, we'll try a different boy.

 

[Jmoore135]

I've watched tons of videos. What sucks is a lot of them say the opposite of each other. A lot of contradicting advice which is why I dont want to watch any more videos. My wife is on the bunny bonding facebook page too which also had contridicting opinions.

The fighting never gets to the tornado part beuase we break it up but I feel it would if we didn't stop it. They can stand a foot apart but once either gets close the fighting and nipping starts, someone loses fur and we break it up. Neither bunny seems interested in the other. Their enclosures are six inches apart and they do not mimick each other in their cages (which last boy here did have that but he was too rough with her). She takes a "stance" in the bonding sessions when they get close like she's going to attack. We're coming up on three weeks and the only progress we've had is last night one of them flopped down and stretched out while they were bonding - the other just sat there watching (she did not flop down or look comfortable). We are willing to go as long as it takes but just don't want to waste time if it seems there is no hope with this pair.

My rabbits never mimic each other. They’ve been side by side for 4 months and I’ve never seen this happen once. There is always a bit of fur pulled during our bonding sessions. I see them bite each other and there is a big difference between dominance assertion fur pulling (which looks like booping their nose against the others body or face and followed by a clump of hair) and actual aggressive “I intend on hurting you” biting. Hair pulling is a normal behavior to expect during most bonding sessions. Same with mounting and humping, chasing (the fun kind, not aggressive) and flopping. You can learn a lot about how your rabbits feel about each other by watching their behavior very closely when in each others company. That stance you mention could just be a “I’m watching you” stance, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re ready to attack or that they’re super stressed. I think you’ll get them bonded with the right techniques (whichever that might be for you) and time! Just try to keep as calm as possible during sessions since they can pick up on your stress and keep watching every move they make to learn more about what’s happening between them!

 

[Jmoore135]

Looks like the immersion thing is definitely not for us. I'm going through these links a coule I've seen before, one link does not work, a couple others I've sent to my wife, it just appears to be info we've seen before, I'm not finding any new info here but thank you.

We will try for a couple more weeks with this boy, if it's the same in two weeks, we'll try a different boy.

Also move the bunnies to the others cage every day to neutralize the space and get them used to each others smell. Keep everything inside the inclosure the same. Just switch the bunnies. I think this has really helped us.

 

[Jmoore135]

@critters checking up on your bonding to see how it’s going! Any progress with your bunnies?

 

[user 35607]

@critters checking up on your bonding to see how it’s going! Any progress with your bunnies?

Thank you for asking - so we've been working with the HRS - the first boy we tried was just too rough with her - he ended up taking a good amount of fur off her back - she liked him at first and he like her but would not stop humping her and he got rougher and rougher until it was too hard to keep them together.

The second boy, which we are in week 5 now, did like her but she did not seem to like him. They fought all the time. The last fight (a couple days ago) drew blood (from her) so we're done with this set.

We're going to try one more boy, we're picking up this Saturday and if that doesn't work out she'll probably just be a single rabbit.

It also sucks because we get attached to these boys and then have to take them back and I don't want to do that anymore so this next one is the last whether we keep or dont' keep.

 

[JBun]

If you have several choices, I would be looking for signs of 'love at first sight'. Where both rabbits have an immediate positive interest in each other, snuggling, grooming, lots of positive interaction and not really any chasing, and minimal humping. It's the least stressful type of bonding, which it sounds like you would appreciate at this point.

 

[user 35607]

If you have several choices, I would be looking for signs of 'love at first sight'. Where both rabbits have an immediate positive interest in each other, snuggling, grooming, lots of positive interaction and not really any chasing, and minimal humping. It's the least stressful type of bonding, which it sounds like you would appreciate at this point.

They don't really give us a choice of interacting the bunnies. We ask for suggestions of good boys to try and then go from there. We have two boys we've met already we are deciding from to pick out Saturday and hope one of them ends up being the one but I tell you, you get attached to these rabbits. Taking them back is hard. We're going to see the first boy we had originally (that didn't work out) this Saturday when we go back and it'll be nice to see him but still hard that we're not keeping him and we really want him to go to a good home but we don't want to get attached to another boy that we're going to end up bringing back again.

 

[Blue eyes]

Given your obvious commitment thus far, one would think they'd be happy to have you bring your girl in and see how she reacts to a few possibilities. I have not come across a rescue that did not allow a bunny owner to bring their bun in to meet some of their rabbits. I don't know why they won't let you do that. How frustrating. Typically they encourage you to bring in your rabbit for the very purpose of pre-screening. How can they even suggest any boys without your rabbit there?
Perhaps you can try to push the idea based on your rabbit's history thus far?

 

[user 35607]

Given your obvious commitment thus far, one would think they'd be happy to have you bring your girl in and see how she reacts to a few possibilities. I have not come across a rescue that did not allow a bunny owner to bring their bun in to meet some of their rabbits. I don't know why they won't let you do that. How frustrating. Typically they encourage you to bring in your rabbit for the very purpose of pre-screening. How can they even suggest any boys without your rabbit there?
Perhaps you can try to push the idea based on your rabbit's history thus far?

They don't. The just suggest good candidates for us to choose from.

The two boys we're choosing from this Saturday are both boys we've met already and I'm kind of dreading going through another rabbit that doesn't work out - I miss the first little guy we had and I'm already going to miss the second boy we're returning this Saturday. But this is it for us, if this boy doesn't work out, our girl will be by herself.

 

[Blue eyes]

I get that. One girl I had didn't accept our first 2 attempted males. I'm frustrated with that rescue. I don't see what makes them think they can possibly suggest any particular rabbit unless they see how it reacts with your girl. It really is common practice in rescues to pre-screen. I don't get their (lack of) reasoning.

I hope you have success. I don't blame you for keeping her single if it doesn't work out.

 

[Jmoore135]

They don't. The just suggest good candidates for us to choose from.

The two boys we're choosing from this Saturday are both boys we've met already and I'm kind of dreading going through another rabbit that doesn't work out - I miss the first little guy we had and I'm already going to miss the second boy we're returning this Saturday. But this is it for us, if this boy doesn't work out, our girl will be by herself.

Have you asked that rescue if they will let you leave your rabbit there to see how she does with one of the males they’ve chosen as a potential bond for you? I’ve heard of rescues doing this. It might help your bunny feel more comfortable too since she won’t be in a place she’s feeling territorial over. Maybe ask them if they would be open to it. Typically you would leave your rabbit there over a weekend or a few days and then would bring both home together and continue bonding sessions.

Another thought is maybe finding a new rescue that would allow you to bring your bunny in for “speed dating” which is what I think most rescues prefer you do, so they don’t have to keep swapping bunnies. I’m also surprised they don’t ask you to do this. When we were looking for our second bunny, ours came with us to the rescue and they put him in a small playpen and tried at least 5 different bunnies until we found one that felt right.

 

[user 35607]

Have you asked that rescue if they will let you leave your rabbit there to see how she does with one of the males they’ve chosen as a potential bond for you? I’ve heard of rescues doing this. It might help your bunny feel more comfortable too since she won’t be in a place she’s feeling territorial over. Maybe ask them if they would be open to it. Typically you would leave your rabbit there over a weekend or a few days and then would bring both home together and continue bonding sessions.

Another thought is maybe finding a new rescue that would allow you to bring your bunny in for “speed dating” which is what I think most rescues prefer you do, so they don’t have to keep swapping bunnies. I’m also surprised they don’t ask you to do this. When we were looking for our second bunny, ours came with us to the rescue and they put him in a small playpen and tried at least 5 different bunnies until we found one that felt right.

They won't.

I've contacted a couple other rescues out here and they are run by idiots. One stopped responding to me because the letters in my email (I have letters in my email as my "name" so that when I get email addressed to that, I know it's spam). She wasn't sure if it was someone she had been arguing with, even though it's a different email so she stopped responding. Someone that immature shouldn't be rescuig animals. The other one stopped responding when I asked how much their bonding service was. It's incredible. Litearlly said "how much does your bonding service cost?" No response. I emailed a couple more times asking if they got my email. Would not respond. Apparently they were offended that I had the nerve to ask the price. So that's that. No other rescues close enough. We contacted one 90 miles away but their selection of boys is limited.

 

[Jmoore135]

I’m so sorry this all seems very frustrating. I’ve had issues with rescues in the past as well. It’s to no surprise that those rescues are overflowing with rabbits since they make it nearly impossible to get a rabbit from them. I hope this weekend goes well for you! Keep us updated!

 

[user 35607]

I’m so sorry this all seems very frustrating. I’ve had issues with rescues in the past as well. It’s to no surprise that those rescues are overflowing with rabbits since they make it nearly impossible to get a rabbit from them. I hope this weekend goes well for you! Keep us updated!

lol, seriously. What is wrong with these people? I mean the you check the yelp reviews and apparently the one rescue has all kinds of bad reviews because this lday I was dealing with who didn't like the initials in my email is a nutjob. I wonder how many homes she's cost rabbits by being a loonie. It's quite sad. The HRS I'm dealing with right now are great though, so we'll just stick with them.

 

[ElfNugget]

Whether or not there's hope depends on what behavior they're showing when interacting, and if they've had a real fight with real biting, or if it's just been minor scuffles with some chasing, nipping, mounting.

Have they had a true fight that has escalated into a bunny 'tornado' and actual clamping down biting(not just nips)? Are they circling, are there tails raised or ears pinned back?

Their body language is very important in determining how to proceed, when to intervene, when to stop things before serious injuries occur, and if they might not be a compatible match for each other.

I would suggest doing a bit of reading up on rabbit bonding and body language. Watching bonding videos can be helpful to better understand what behaviors that show progress, and what signs of escalating aggression looks like so you know when to stop things. Understanding rabbits body language is so important in this whole process, especially knowing the signs of escalating aggression. Because if these aren't recognized early and some intervention done, things can worsen very quickly, to the point that there could be injuries and there will be no chance of a bond working out.

Here are a few links that have some good info on bonding, and some on rabbit behavior.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html
http://www.cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding_rabbits_together
http://language.rabbitspeak.com/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_your_rabbit