Advice on bonding a trio

[FantasyFanVII]

This will be a bit long, so bare with me.

I have one old rabbit (Piko M, 11 years in February) and on October 14th acquired two young rabbits (Len M/Rin F, 5 months now) to be his companions for the rest of his life. I know the age difference isn't ideal, but long story short it just worked out that way.

The young rabbits are litter mates. They were living in the same pen for one week before being separated into pens in what I'll call Room 1. The pens were next to each other in an L shape with about a foot in between. In order to let Rin out, I'd have to put Len in his connected crate and let Rin run through his pen.

I've never seen any signs of aggression between them. Rin will try to ask for grooming between the pen bars, but Len doesn't quite get it. I've seen them flopped next to each other against the bars.

They were separated before hormones kicked in. Rin was spayed November 10th and Len was neutered December 15th. Piko has been neutered for 10+ years.

At the moment, Len and Rin are living in side by side pens in Room 2. I no longer have to let either run through the other's space to be let out. However, they'll have to be moved back to Room 1 soon.

Piko is in Room 3, where all the rabbits will be housed together eventually assuming all goes well. If it doesn't, Piko will stay in Room 3 alone and Len/Rin will stay in Room 1, assuming they still get along. If they don't I'll figure something out.

I have a bathroom that is a small neutral space none of the rabbits have been allowed in. There's a hallway connecting it, Rooms 1-3 and the living room. Len/Rin have been allowed in the hallway separately. Piko has been allowed in the hallway and living room. However, he hasn't been in the living room since we set the Christmas tree up in mid December.

I plan to introduce them in the bathroom, gradually increasing the amount of time they spend together each day. Then I'll move to the shared territory of the hallway, then the shared living room, then finally Room 3.

I don't want to do any stress bonding because of Piko's age. He just had blood work done in November and it was completely fine. However, I still want to avoid stressing him as much as possible.

My question is, would it be better to re-solidify the bond between Len/Rin first, then introduce Piko, or should I try bonding all three at the same time?

If I do re-solidify Len/Rin first, should I start by letting them out together in Room 2 or wait until they're back in Room 1? I'd rather not use the bathroom with just them, as it's the only neutral space I have.

Also, when do I start this? I was thinking January 12th because it'll be about a month past Len's neuter and I'll be off work the 12th/13th to watch them. Should I wait an extra week to play it safe?

 

[JBun]

You could try bonding the 12th/13th, but you may need to wait longer if the hormones still haven't worn off enough for the last bun neutered. Getting overly excited, honking and circling, excessive humping, getting aroused, can all be signs it's still too soon. Usually it takes a minimum of 4 weeks for the hormones to be down enough that it won't cause issues with bonding because of the drive to hump to excess. But sometimes it can take longer, even 8 weeks or more, for the bun to have the hormone levels decreased enough, and to have adjusted to the hormone changes.

How to go about the bonding and who to bond first is really a judgment call based on all buns personalities and how they respond to one another. You may start out with one plan, then have to adapt and try out something else if things aren't going well.

The most important thing is not ever allowing things to escalate into a full on fight, because once that happens, there is very little chance that bonding will be successful afterwards as it usually will immediately escalate back into a full on fight, with the risk of serious injury occurring. I immediately intervene during bonding, before any excess circling, chasing, or humping could overly aggravate any bun to an escalation of aggression. Some amount of dominance behavior does have to be allowed so they can establish their hierarchy, but it's a fine line.

I think I would start out with all 3 together bonding. Then evaluate from there. If it's looking to be too stressful for your older bun, then it may be needed to do a more gradual bonding approach, and/or bond one bun at a time to him. Or if two buns are really clashing, you might need to bond the hardest two first, then add in the third.

Bonding can be tricky when it's not just a smooth bond. You have to move forward or back, based on the body language you're seeing from the rabbits. And not force it if it doesn't feel right.

I would suggest reading up on bonding and rabbit body language, particularly what the signs of escalating aggression looks like, so you know when it's absolutely necessary to intervene before things escalate into a fight. And be aware, that trios can be difficult and often don't work out. It's common for two buns to take a liking to each other and pair up leaving the other bun out, which can lead to tension and problems in the group.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html
https://cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding_rabbits_together
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/when-to-intervene-rabbit-bonding.104770/

 

[Blue eyes]

I'd also urge caution since you have 2 males to 1 female. That usually doesn't work out too well since the males tend to both want the female's attention.

Since pairs are more ideal for bonding, and since Piko is already a (very) senior rabbit at 11 years, I'd be inclined to not put Piko through the stress of a bonding... especially not a more complicated bond like a trio. I fear it would be too stressful for him. A young energetic male may prove too much for him.

As jenny mentioned, generally it's advised to introduce all 3 rabbits at the same time with a trio. I just would not advise it with such a senior rabbit. If another older bun isn't available for Piko, his best bet would be an extremely docile, submissive rabbit that isn't too energetic-- and just one rabbit so as not to stress him too much.

As for Len and Rin, it'd be a good idea to view them as unbonded, never-before-met rabbits (even though they were together before and littermates). Since they've both been fixed, they are now more like "new" rabbits to each other. So go slow when bonding.

 

[FantasyFanVII]

Thanks for the replies. Of course, now I've gotten 3 different replies across 2 forums all saying different things. Ugh idk anymore.

To add extra context on the rabbits' personalities: Rin and Piko both appear to have dominant personalities so I'm afraid they'd clash. I'm not sure about Len, but he is really energetic so I'm afraid he'd be too much for Piko at times.

I'll also admit Piko hasn't been around other rabbits. I haven't had a job or school through most of his life (long story) so I've always been with him. However, now I'm finally able to work full time. It's good for me but it means Piko is alone most of the day. I started worrying about him and didn't want him to be alone the rest of his life. Then the opportunity to get the twins came up so I took it.

But now I'm second guessing myself. Is it worse for Piko to be alone or go through the stress of bonding, knowing it might not even work? Is it fair to the twins to bond them all only for Piko to potentially pass away soon after? I hope I'll have him for a couple more years, but there's no way to know.

I'm seriously debating not making a trio at all. I'll just focus on bonding Len/Rin then keep them in Room 1 and Piko in Room 3.

Even if they're seperate they'll still be out at seperate times in the hallway/living room, so at least Piko will get some stimulation from knowing there's other rabbits around. Although, he really hasn't seemed to react at all to smelling them. At least he doesn't seem stressed though.

I also have the option of leaving the doors to the rabbit's rooms open when the other is out, leaving them only seperated by baby gates. Ex. if Piko is out the twins will be in their room with only a baby gate between them and the hallway. That way they can interact if they want but won't have direct contact and can easily get away from eachother. Of course, it'll all be surprised and if I see any fighting or stress I'll start closing the doors.

I could also try introducing Piko to each of the twins individually in the bathroom. If it goes perfectly with both pairs, I'll start bonding all 3 together. I know the odds of perfect introductions are extremely low though, so I definitely wouldn't bet on it happening twice. Is it even worth trying?

 

[JBun]

Blue Eyes made some very good points. Stressing an older bun is definitely not something to do, except in very limited specific circumstances.

Yes, it is possible it could still work out without too much difficulty. I had a bonded trio for a short time, but with 2 females and one male. I bonded in a young doe to two older bonded buns. And she was pretty much accepted right away without too much difficulty, as she was smitten with my older male and was submissive to my older female. So it can work out smoothly with the exact right blend of personalities.

I'd suggest only moving forward if it seems like a really smooth intro and match with all 3 buns. Especially only if your old bun doesn't seem stressed at all, but interested and excited to have both young buns around, where they aren't bugging or chasing him, and he seems ok with their younger energy. It's essentially a 'love at first sight' match. Where they all pretty much bond instantly, with minimal humping and no chasing or aggression. Where it doesn't cause any bun any undue stress, and all buns are happy to be together.

First introducing each individually to Pico in a neutral area, is how I'd go about it. But I'd have a baby gate or wire panel between them to start, so if there is any aggression, both buns are protected from injury. Though do watch for noses and ears poking through the bars, as these are common targets when there is aggression.

Another thing to consider is that if you do try a trial intro with your old bun and he's upset by the presence of other rabbits, this can set off territorial urine and poop marking for some time, as well as possible referred aggression towards you, that may not settle back down for weeks or months. So if you have buns with good litter box habits currently, this is something to consider very carefully.

If your old bun seems agitated or aggressive at all, or anything other than very interested and excited, it's probably best to leave things as they are and keep him by himself. As you said, it's always been just you and him, so I think it would be better to leave him single, even though you may not be around as much now. Though if this is during the daytime that you're gone, buns sleep for the most part during the day. So if you're around in the morning and/or evening, he's still getting quality time with you, since those are the usual times rabbits are most active.

 

[Blue eyes]

If your old bun seems agitated or aggressive at all, or anything other than very interested and excited, it's probably best to leave things as they are and keep him by himself. As you said, it's always been just you and him, so I think it would be better to leave him single, even though you may not be around as much now. Though if this is during the daytime that you're gone, buns sleep for the most part during the day. So if you're around in the morning and/or evening, he's still getting quality time with you, since those are the usual times rabbits are most active.

Perfect summary! Well put.

 

[FantasyFanVII]

Wasn't sure if I should revive this or start a new thread. Since this has all my background and I don't want to repeat it, I'm just replying here. Sorry if I shouldn't have.

So I've ultimately decided to just bond the twins and leave Piko out of it. I think it'll ultimately be too stressful for both of us. They'll get limited "interaction" by seeing each other through baby gates and smelling each other in shared spaces but that'll be it.

Now onto the twins. It's been decided they'll be staying in Room 2 with the side by side pens, so that's where this is taking place.

I did the first bonding session today. I decided to just let them out of their pens at the same time and watch closely. At first they just ignored each other. They were more interested in exploring each other's pens then interacting.

Eventually Len started trying to mount Rin while grunting as he got into position. Is the grunting a sign he's not past his hormones yet? He trying mounting backwards a couple time which I immediately stopped. If he positioned himself correctly, I let it happen. Rin tolerated it for a few seconds then ran off and I stopped Len from chasing her down.

This happened a few times but was ultimately uneventful and they were still more interested in each other's pens then each other.

Then they moved to the hallway. Rin started mounting Len. He tolerated it, but she seemed too aggressive with it. After several seconds, she kind of grunt/snorted, lost her balance, and tried to get back on. I stopped her at this point. They started looking like they were going to circle so I stopped them. The got into a "groom me" standoff so I pet both of them while they had their heads together.

After they calmed down and walked away they were ignoring each other for a minute then the same thing happened again. Rin mounted Len, got too aggressive, I pushed her off, they almost circled, then I pet them together before they seperated.

After that she mounted him again. This time I only let her do it a couple seconds before pushing her off. They seperated peacefully and I caught them near each other for one more simultaneous petting session.

Then Rin went back to Room 2 and Len stayed. I decided to end things there. I put Rin in Len's pen then herded Len into Rin's pen. The whole thing lasted 30-45 minutes, with most of that time spent exploring each other's pens/wandering around.

How'd things go? Is there anything I should have done differently? Can I do multiple sessions a day or should I stick to one a day for now?

Can I continue, or do I need to give Len more time to get over his neuter? He really wasn't that persistent chasing Rin, it's just the grunting that made me wonder.

 

[Blue eyes]

It was good to post here again since the whole background is in this thread.

Bonding is such an individual thing and isn't hard science, so there aren't many hard & fast guidelines to go by. You often have to go with what your gut tells you.

Reading their interaction, I'd be inclined to give Len more time. I'd also be inclined to give the two of them more time separated in those side-by-side pens. Giving them more time has no downsides, but rushing things may.

By being in side by side pens for several weeks, they more gradually get accustomed to each other's presence. In fact, this is often referred to as "pre-bonding."

When it does come time to try again, I'd limit their roaming area. Too much space at once can cause them to stake out territory to defend.

 

[JBun]

It sounds like it went as bonding typically goes at the beginning, in a potentially compatible match. Some back and forth to figure out hierarchy. You did good intervening when needed, and not letting it be excessive or escalate. And ending on a good note.

Your male is likely still a bit hormonal, since it's only been 4 weeks since his neuter, though it doesn't sound like too much or he'd be pretty hump happy still. But, as Blue Eyes suggested, you may need to wait another week or two for his hormones to calm down even more if this residual hormonal behavior seems to be causing problems during the bonding. You just don't want excessive hormonal humping to lead your girl bun to becoming less tolerant and more agitated with him, as continued excessive humping to her isn't seen as him being a hormonal male still, which is what's still going on in his brain, but a bid for dominance. So if he's still reacting hormonally and to excess, I'd also suggest giving it another week or two, to attempt bonding again.

But if you do still feel you can continue now, I'd suggest keeping it short and only one or two sessions a day until he settles a bit more. And only if you can keep the humping minimized, no circling, no excessive chasing or nipping, and just generally keep things from escalating. You want bonding sessions to either stay neutral or improve, not have their interactions deteriorate more and more with each interaction, which can happen if hormones are still driving a rabbits behavior. Because if it is trending in this direction, the outcome will eventually be a full on fight, which usually means the end of a possible bond, and possible injuries as well.

There will be some amount of tension and back and forth as rabbits bond, and as they sort out who will be 'top bun', but this should generally stay at a minimum to moderate level, without continued escalation. So you do have to allow some amount of humping, chasing, and nipping so they can sort out hierarchy; but not excessive, no circling ( which is different than hormonal or excited circling) as this will almost always escalate, and intervening if tails are raised or ears pinned. You don't want either rabbits behavior escalating, which is likely to happen if neither rabbit shows they've decided to submit. So keep a watch for that.

Bonding can progress as quickly or as slowly as the rabbits allow. Some people will go for fast track bonding, which is 24 hr continuous until the rabbits are bonded, provided the rabbits respond well. But some rabbits don't do well with this technique and respond better to a more gradual approach. As Blue Eyes said, there are no hard and fast rules. Large space or small space, fast or slow, more sessions or less; it's all determined by your rabbits, their body language, and also being able to correctly interpret that body language and understanding how to proceed based on what you're seeing from their responses and interactions with each other.

If either rabbit seems to be getting more tense with continued interactions, instead of more relaxed and comfortable with each other, I'd suggest giving them a break for several days to a week or two, then resume and see if things seem better and go more smoothly. If they don't and their behavior continues to worsen and get more tense with each bonding session, it can mean you're trying to bond too quickly, using a technique that isn't a good one for these two, possibly doing something incorrectly, or they just aren't compatible.

One thing to keep in mind or possibly reconsider, with allowing them to be able to wander into each other's pen while doing a bonding session, is that this isn't neutral space but each others established territory. The potential is that one rabbit wanders into the others pen while they're still in there and she/he gets territorial about their space, and a fight breaks out. This can especially be the case with your girl bun, as the females tend to be very territorial about their space. So it's not something I would risk doing or recommend. Though not to say it's going to be a problem for you, just a possible risk.

A better procedure would be to switch them into each others pens individually, to get used to each others smell. Never together in either at the same time until officially bonded and you permanently keep them together. And when letting them out into the neutral space for bonding time, shut up both rabbits pens so they can't go back in to either pen during a bonding session.

 

[FantasyFanVII]

Update for anyone curious: I decided to continue with the bonding and see how it went. I followed advice and am now closing pen doors when they're both out. I'm also keeping sessions to 20-30 minutes max.



Len has settled down believe it or not. He's stopped grunting and rarely humps. Guess he just needed to get it out of his system? Although I have noticed he'll sometimes try to stick his nose under Rin's tail. She doesn't seem especially bothered by it though.



Rin's a dominant little turd. She humps him A LOT. Although, she's been doing it for less time and hasn't made any vocalization since day one. Len is submissive and tolerates her well. Occasionally he'll hop away and I stop Rin from chasing him down. Should I be letting her? I haven't noticed any signs of Len wanting to retaliate or being aggressive.



I made what I believe to be progress today. Rin splooted, the first time either has while both were out, and Len finally ended the grooming war by giving up and grooming Rin. He did it a few minutes later too when they were both sitting.



I'm hopeful things will work out. Of course I'm still not putting them together soon. I don't want to go too quick.



BTW, when i do put them together I'm planning on removing the pens but leaving the attached crates for now. Mostly because that's where the litterboxes are. Would it be better to remove the crates and just leave the boxes next to eachother? That'd be kind of hard because the hay bags are attached to the crates but I can make it work if I have to.



When they're bonded, I'll get a large litterbox/hay feeder from Etsy and get rid of at least one crate/litterbox, potentially both. If I do leave a litterbox it probably won't have hay because i want to encourage them to just use the nice one. Is this a good idea?



The Etsy litterbox: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1471308128/lettiera-ranch-per-conigli-fieniera-in

 

[Blue eyes]

Glad to hear they seem to be making some progress.

A photo of your current setup would be helpful so we can see what you mean about the litterboxes and the crates (and see size perspective, etc).

That litter box from etsy might look cute, but it isn't something I would recommend. I couldn't see any precise dimensions, but from the video I can see that the litter box section is rather small -- especially for 2 rabbits. The plastic box part below the grid looks quite thin and doesn't look like it will last. Having a grid tray on top of the litter tends to be a pain to clean. It's a good option for those dealing with particular problem rabbits that are voracious diggers/kickers of their litter but most rabbits don't need it. I know I wouldn't want to have to scrub that thing with every litter change. Pee is also likely to get on the wood rim-- no way to get that out/off. The hay section isn't too bad (though I personally think hay does better inside the litter box.. without a grid on top).

$300 (with shipping) just seems awfully expensive for that (as cute as it may be).

Will be curious to see pics of what your rabbits are currently using. Perhaps they'll be sufficient (or perhaps we'll come up with some alternative options to consider).

 

[JBun]

You'll need to allow some chasing to occur at some point. It's part of the process of establishing hierarchy. And when they're permanently bonded, some chasing may occur as a normal part of the ongoing process of reasserting dominance. But it shouldn't ever be to the point of being excessive, causing increasing agitation to the other rabbit. And while bonding and still figuring each other out, you can and should, intervene if it seems excessive and it's upsetting either rabbit.

But it is sounding good so far. Anytime grooming occurs, that's progress. Better progress if both buns are doing it, but it can still be ok if only one bun is, provided the bun not getting groomed in return, isn't getting upset with the grooming not being reciprocated.

If your buns are to the point of both flopping or laying down right next to each other consistently (with no barrier separating), and seem pretty relaxed and content being together, I would take that as a sign to start gradually increasing their bonding time, and continue increasing every few days if they continue to do well grooming and laying next to each other, and there's no uptick in dominance or other issues. If there is an uptick, then give it time to settle down before increasing their daily time together.

One thing to watch for is if there's increasing tension at the start of bonding sessions as you go along, but it settles down as they're together and then they're fine, but restarts again with each bonding session. If this is happening, you might need to adjust your bonding process to a more accelerated one, as the repeated separation after bonding sessions, can be a detrimental thing for some bonds, especially rabbits that have been able to sort out their hierarchy already. It's like they're having to start over sorting out hierarchy with each new session instead of remembering what was worked out in the previous sessions.

If you get to 5 plus consecutive hours together, without any problems, and they're continuing to groom and lay next to each other, I'd get ready to do an all dayer and finalize their bonding. If they're good together 48 hours straight without dominance issues or tension, I'd get their old pens cleaned and arranged, and ready to gradually expand their bonding space to this include this 'new' permanent living area. If this gradual expansion will work in your situation. Gradually increasing or gradually moving a rabbits territory, usually works better than a sudden change of space, when possible.

When they're bonded, I'd either remove the crates or just have one big one to share if they still like to hang out in it as a place they feel safe. But a crate inside a pen or their room, isn't usually a necessity.

I agree with Blue Eyes on the litter box. I prefer something simpler, and cheaper myself. But if it's something you're really wanting, at least maybe hold off on it until your rabbits have been together a little while and you have a better idea of what kind of set up is going to work best. I'd hate for you to spend all that money, only to find it doesn't work out well for your buns. Keep in mind the wood is likely to get chewed up over time, and you may find 2 litter boxes work out best instead, or one really large one. I always just used the $7 mortar/concrete mixing tub from home depot. Definitely not very cute, but functional with plenty of space. So I would suggest starting with something cheap until you're sure of what set up works best for them as a bonded pair.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/litter-training.html
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Litter_training

 

[FantasyFanVII]

Oh yeah pictures might help. Although honestly I'm not too keen to share. I know it's not the best. Ex. The pens are too small IMO. It's just the best I could do and I figured it'd be ok since it's only temporary.

Before you ask, I know the hay racks aren't the best. They're just all I found in town and I figured I'd try them to see if they worked for me. They actually did when the twins were on alfalfa. Now that they've been weaned off that, they've been eating a little less hay. Not sure if it's because it's harder to get through the bars because its longer or because they just don't like the taste as much. I've already ordered hay bags. They're stuck in the mail somewhere, but will supposedly be here today. In the meantime I've been cutting their hay into smaller pieces for them and it seems to be helping slightly.

Anyway, I prefer having the hay in a container because it seems to create less waste from soiled hay and it keeps it contained and a little neater.

The edges of the box are cut down because I didn't want them jumping after their spay/neuter. For litter I'm using pine pellets from Tractor Supply. No puppy pee pads because I'm afraid of them getting eaten. I clean every other day.

I originally fell in love with the etsy litterboxes look and the attached feeder. I see your points though. Hmm what about this one? Not as nice looking, but cheaper and bigger. https://www.etsy.com/listing/530731911/large-ez-entry-enclosed-hop-box-rabbit

Speaking of litterboxes, you might be able to see Rin's been peeing in the corner in one of the crates. Specifically only that corner in that crate. She's fine otherwise. I've tried scrubbing it with 50/50 vinegar/water but no changes. Any ideas?

The cardboard on the tops of the crates are actually lids that fold down. I was paranoid about them jumping out, but they don't seem very inclined to.

Rin is out from 8 to 9:30am with Len out 9:30 to 10:30am and both out 10:30 to 11am. Rin gets let out again 6 to 8pm and Len is out 8 to 10pm.

As for slow expansion, I honestly don't think I can unfortunately. I don't really have the space. It's either leave the pens open or take both down.

Bonding wise, I've allowed a little chasing as suggested. It's never led to anything and doesn't seem excessive. I actually wonder if it's more following than chasing. I'll try to get a vid tomorrow if I can.

 

[Blue eyes]

The photos are most helpful. Thank you.

I see what you mean about the hay racks. No wonder they are eating less of it. The hay racks make it too much effort for them to get enough. Hay bags aren't likely to be much better. Cutting the hay in smaller pieces defeats the benefit of long strands of hay. Each rabbit should be eating their body size in hay every day.

Top the litter with hay twice per day. It should be reasonably contained in the litter box that way. [Check this page and especially read the part "The third and equally important aspect..."] You'll see that as you add hay each day, any old hay gets tamped down and serves a purpose.

The other etsy litter box you linked appears to be a bit larger. If you noticed some of the photos from reviewers, you'll see that the hay ends up in the litter box anyway. So my thinking is why pay for the fancy hay rack when the hay just going to get dragged out into the litter box anyway?

Also, one person noted that their rabbits chewed right through one of the dowel rods holding the hay.

I couldn't tell what corner was being peed in, but a common solution is to move the litter box to that location.

 

[FantasyFanVII]

I'm going to try the bags to see how they go. Logic being I have them, I may as well try them. If I don't see increased hay consumption in a week, I'll try putting the hay in the box. I may also make a new thread dedicated to my literbox setup in the future.

This has offcially gotten off topic though. I fully admit it's my fault for bringing up the litterbox in the first place, and I apologize. Can we get back to bonding? Not to be rude, I really do appreciate your advice, I'd just like to focus.

 

[JBun]

If she's peeing in the corner next to the separation between their 2 pens, I'd say it's territorial. Her making sure he knows that's her space. I had a buck that did that. I just moved his litter box to that spot and it solved the problem. Like Blue Eyes suggested, you could try moving her litter box to that corner and see if that fixes it.

 

[FantasyFanVII]

Got today's session recorded. I started the recording immediately after letting them out and ended immediately before penning them. No audio beyond me shuffling around.



You can tell them apart by their faces. Rin has symmetrical white markings on both cheeks. Len has a line with only one white cheek. You can also tell from their behavior. Rin is always the one mounting while Len is always the one grooming. Sometimes he'll ask to be groomed, but Rin never does it. He doesn't seem too offended though.

It was a pretty typical session. Normally I'll let it last 5-10 minutes longer but I felt like the video was long enough and figured the grooming was a good note to end on.

Didn't get much of the chasing/following I mentioned, beyond one following when the other changed rooms.

The cat (Rue) also normally isn't there. She just happened to wander in and I didn't want to stop the recording to kick her out. She did let me catch something I wanted to ask about though. At the risk of starting controversy/getting off topic again.

At about 2:10 she gives Len a "false nip" where she goes over to him, mouths the air above him, then walks off. Should I be concerned? Note she has never had any issues with my older rabbit, who she grew up with.

The worst I've ever seen between them is when they were first introduced. One of the twins went right up to Rue and she kind of lightly gnawed/patted them. Not in a way to cause injury, just a warning. Like she was saying "get out of my face" I immediately gave a loud "HEY" and they seperated. Something similar has happened maybe 2 more times. Since then they've just been ignoring each other. Today was the most I've seen them interact in a while.

PS: Sorry for the mess. Vacuuming/putting away Christmas is on this weekend's to do list. Also excuse the bare knees. It's warm in my house so I was wearing shorts.

 

[FantasyFanVII]

Update: I know I said no more litterbox talk, but I felt bad and wanted to give a more satisfactory ending. The twins both refused to eat out of the hay bags at all, so I gave up and the boxes have been changed to these. Not exactly pretty, but oh well.

Now seriously, back to bonding

In all seriousness, I really do greatly appreciate your help.

 

[JBun]

That's the same litter box I'm using right now too. You're right, not the cutest, but it works well enough. The etsy ones are nice, but I could never convince myself to spend that kind of money on something my rabbit is just going to pee in and chew up. If it's something I really wanted anyways, I'd much rather spend the money on the tools I'd need to just make it myself. Then I have the litter box I want, and the tools for future projects, all for the same cost. But that's just my preference. I know others would rather not diy.

I don't really know cat behavior well, but the cat mouthing near the neck may be predatory behavior acting out instincts but still holding back. Or possibly an invitation to play. I think it's dependent on the situation and animals involved. Cats and rabbits can sometimes cohabitate peacefully and even like each other, but I do suggest still being cautious of your cats interactions with the rabbits. A bite or scratch from a cat, even just a small scratch, can become infected and prove fatal to rabbits very rapidly, particularly from bites. So just something to be aware of and take the necessary precautions.

https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threa...bits-please-everyone-read-basils-story.68997/
That bonding session actually looks really good. Your male is being quite tolerant of your girl bun and doesn't seem to be getting too upset by her humping. At one point he did seem tired of it and hopped out away from her doing it, which is how you would want that to go when a rabbit doesn't want to be bothered. But it's something to keep an eye on, that he doesn't start acting agitated with her doing it, but instead avoids the situation when he's tired of it.

And the 'chasing' was just him seeing her leaving and following her to stay with her. Actual chasing is one bun basically trying to get the other bun to move away out of their space in a forceful manner. This may involve nipping, or more aggressive pinned ears and tail raised. I'm not seeing any of this negative or more aggressive behavior. So it's definitely looking quite good with them.

I do think she groomed him about midway through, about 5.5 minutes in. There was almost some circling as she hopped away and he followed, but then he turned and groomed her, which is perfect, then a few hops and he groomed her again with a few licks as he sniffed her cheek, then she appeared to give him a few licks on his body. Then towards the end of the video she was sniffing his head and possibly may have licked it or it may have just been sniffing. Hard to tell. All really positive interactions. They also both were doing some head binkying near the end, so another positive indicator of being relaxed and happy being around each other.

I would actually be inclined to increase their sessions. Give them a little more time to better work out the humping and dominance, but also so you have more time to see how they do with a longer interaction. If you feel it worsens their behavior, stop the session and reduce the time back down. But if they continue to do well grooming and binkying together, I'd want to keep gradually increasing their time each day as they continue to exhibit positive behaviors with each other. Once they're to 5-7 hours and they're still happy with each other, I'd plan to finish the bond by continuing a whole day. And if everything is still positive with their interactions, I'd work on rearranging their separate pens into their permanent shared space. With their behavior, I don't think you'll have any problems just allowing them into this new space once it's ready, without needing the gradual expansion of space that's usually recommended. They already seem pretty comfortable and happy being around each other.

This is just how I'd proceed based on their current behavior, and provided their behavior continues to be positive. But if you aren't feeling comfortable increasing their time yet, just move forward at whatever pace you're comfortable with and feel your buns are good with.

 

[FantasyFanVII]

Update: it's been an interesting, but productive, last couple days. I wasn't able to let them out together Friday morning, so I let them out in the evening planning to do a long session. I made the decision to leave both pens open. My reasoning was I didn't want to cut them off from food/litterboxes for that long. I also figured they'd have to get used to sharing the space eventually, and they'd been swapping pens daily for a week so I hoped they'd be ok.

Whether it was the pens, being a different time, or just him being a pest, Len decided to try mounting Rin and she did not appreciate it. She didn't fight, just ran while he tried to chase and I stopped him to prevent a fight. This happened a couple times, BUT it was also the first time I'm certain I saw Rin grooming Len, so I hoped all was forgiven.

Saturday was another pen-open evening session. A few more mounting attempts by Len, but not as bad as the day before. There was continued grooming from both.

Sunday was back to the morning, still with pens open. Minimal mounting from both and continued grooming.

Monday was our biggest night yet. I'm just leaving pens open for every session at this point. We went 45 minutes without ANY mounting. There was a grooming standoff, which ended with Rin grooming Len for the first time. Then I got my first simultaneous sploot! I took a pic to capture the occasion. Sorry for the bad angle, I didn't want to get too close and disturb them. I promise they're laying together. This lasted a few minutes before Len got up and wandered off. I ended up having to end the session there.

I'm planning on letting them out together as much as I can this week. Work is pretty nuts right now and my schedule is all over the place, but I'll get them out for at least an hour or two every day.

If all continues to go well, I'll leave them out all day Friday and potentially move them in together Saturday. Wish me luck and thank you again for all your help.