2008 Presidential Vote

[lalena2148]

Bunnys_rule63 wrote:

pinksalamander wrote:

Anyway, we read his speeches and watched his final speech. My god you guys are patriotic! LOL. It was a brill speech though, although he went on a bit about 'God' and 'God Bless America' a bit too much for me. I don't think Politians in the UK ever mention religion, they couldn't get away with it.

This is something that has always struck me massively when watching American politicians. I knew America was a strongly Christian country but I never realised how much it came into politics as politicians here never talk about religion (or patriotism for that matter!) I don't mean any offence to anyone by this but I just don't think religion and politics should ever mix.:?

Funny thing is...I don't know why, but I don't really feel like we're a 'christian' country. Maybe because I'm so used to the fact that God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. When we say the pledge of allegience in school it's always 'under God.' I just recognize that all those things were written by very religious people long ago when the country was founded. It was their beliefs that helped found the country, but this place has changed and gone so far since then.

I have to say two things that I realized yesterday that I never thought I'd see.

To put it in context, I'm a 25 year old native Chicagoan. My dad's parents are gone, but I know a lot about my mom's side. One set of my great-great grandparents emigrated from Germany (when they were 18) to America in the 1890s, and settled in Chicago. My other great-grandfather came here from Ireland when he was a 17 year old runaway spyon a cattle barge in 1917. They faced many hardships as they worked to support their families in America. In fact, my great-grandfather was looked down upon for being Irish and had trouble keeping a job. I never knew him, as he died before my mom was born, but from what my Papa (grandfather) says about him, he was unfortunately somewhat racist because of his job experiences in Chicago as a young man. Because of his upbringing, my Papa was also racist when I was little. He never did it in front of the grandkids much, but as I got older, I noticed his tone on things when he talked about how "they" were moving into the neighborhood. But, after a few as I refer to them, god sent situations where people came to their aide, my Papa started to change. He stopped referring to "them" and I never thought I would see the day...but he and my grandma voted for Obama yesterday. I mean... from people who grew up in bigoted households as kids, lived during the 50s, who I thought would NEVER change. I mean, just wow!

Also, for myself, I cried after I voted yesterday. It was my first time voting and as I filled in the ballot the thought hit me: My great-grandmothers weren't born with the right to vote. That thought confounds me as it wasn't all the long ago. I felt proud to be able to perform my duty and right as a citizen of the USA.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

INDIANA WENT DEMOCRATIC!!!! first time since 1964!

I'm really excited to see what happens in his administration. I never thought I'd see a black man as a president either. Just amazing!

I think that he did the "God bless america" thing because several people were (including myself) upset by his not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge/star spangled banner song.

 

[pinksalamander]

I guess its a much bigger deal for you guys too seeing as you don't have a monarchy. Although Queenie doesn't really do much but pin medals on people and sign things, she is really important to us. I never really thought about is but the US President is like your 'King', so electing him is going to be as huge a deal as a coronation.

Fran :hearts :brownbunny

 

[Bunnys_rule63]

Yeah Ithink you're right Fran. I guess because we have agovernmentand amonarchy it kind of splits the power so we don't really get that hyped up when it comes to our 'leader'. Not that the Queen actually has much power, (none that she could ever actually use in practice anyway)but you know what I mean, it's more of her significance.

 

[furryface]

ya know...I've always wanted to visit DC.......

hmmm....January......probably lots of snow and cold right? eh..big deal..I'm in WI for crying out loud....

perhaps we should move Inauguration Day to say....June? LOL

 

[pinksalamander]

Bunnys_rule63 wrote:

Yeah Ithink you're right Fran. I guess because we have agovernmentand amonarchy it kind of splits the power so we don't really get that hyped up when it comes to our 'leader'. Not that the Queen actually has much power, (none that she could ever actually use in practice anyway)but you know what I mean, it's more of her significance.

The thing I find weirdf about the Queen is she has SO MUCH power. Technically, she is one of the top word leaders. After all, its her parliament. She has to agree on everything, sign ever bill, agree to every law. Can you imagine if we got another monarch who went against this? Who wanted power? Who wanted to completley rule the country? It could happen, and it would be another civil war for us.

I can just imagine her one day going 'No. One shan't be knighting anyone today or agreeing to any policies. One refuses'

Fran :hearts :brownbunny

 

[Bunnys_rule63]

pinksalamander wrote:

Bunnys_rule63 wrote:

Yeah Ithink you're right Fran. I guess because we have agovernmentand amonarchy it kind of splits the power so we don't really get that hyped up when it comes to our 'leader'. Not that the Queen actually has much power, (none that she could ever actually use in practice anyway)but you know what I mean, it's more of her significance.

The thing I find weirdf about the Queen is she has SO MUCH power. Technically, she is one of the top word leaders. After all, its her parliament. She has to agree on everything, sign ever bill, agree to every law. Can you imagine if we got another monarch who went against this? Who wanted power? Who wanted to completley rule the country? It could happen, and it would be another civil war for us.

I can just imagine her one day going 'No. One shan't be knighting anyone today or agreeing to any policies. One refuses'

Fran :hearts :brownbunny

We had this discussion in history last year (we didn't study British history but we were using it for context when studying the fall of the Tsar in Russia). Technically she has the right to dissolve parliament at any time, which of course is great power as she could go totally wacko one day and decide to take over rule of the country. However in reality it would never happen as the whole country would kick off, have a revolution and probably kill the whole Royal family (as history shows, believe me I've studied many revolutions!)

She knows that we don't needa monarchy in this country and they don't actually serve any political purpose. If they want to stay here then they have to keep their mouth's shut and go along with what the government decide.

 

[naturestee]

Bunnys_rule63 wrote:

This is something that has always struck me massively when watching American politicians. I knew America was a strongly Christian country but I never realised how much it came into politics as politicians here never talk about religion (or patriotism for that matter!) I don't mean any offence to anyone by this but I just don't think religion and politics should ever mix.:?

I agree, but unfortunately thereligious fanatics in theright-wing have a very loud political voice.I very much believe in the importance of keeping church and state separate, it's a big part of why the earliest settlers came here. If the Founding Fathers were brought back via time machine today they'd be proclaimed as God hating heretics. It's ridiculous. America is great and all, but keep your religion out of my politics and offmy body. I have different personalbeliefs, thankyouverymuch.

And yes, we can be scarily patriotic. Especially during this election where disagreeing with political policies sometimes results in us being labeled "unAmerican." Meanwhile I think the government should be criticized loudly and often no matter who is in office. It's good for them and IMO is part of the democracy process.

Now back to your regular *YAY AMERICA* programming.

 

[BethM]

naturestee wrote:

Bunnys_rule63 wrote:

This is something that has always struck me massively when watching American politicians. I knew America was a strongly Christian country but I never realised how much it came into politics as politicians here never talk about religion (or patriotism for that matter!) I don't mean any offence to anyone by this but I just don't think religion and politics should ever mix.:?

I agree, but unfortunately the religious fanatics in the right-wing have a very loud political voice. I very much believe in the importance of keeping church and state separate, it's a big part of why the earliest settlers came here. If the Founding Fathers were brought back via time machine today they'd be proclaimed as God hating heretics. It's ridiculous. America is great and all, but keep your religion out of my politics and off my body. I have different personal beliefs, thankyouverymuch. And yes, we can be scarily patriotic. Especially during this election where disagreeing with political policies sometimes results in us being labeled "unAmerican." Meanwhile I think the government should be criticized loudly and often no matter who is in office. It's good for them and IMO is part of the democracy process. Now back to your regular *YAY AMERICA* programming.

Naturestee, It's like you read my thoughts!


I really adhere to the beliefs that this country was founded as an escape from religious persecution, and the fact that the first amendment explicitly calls for the separation of church and state. I feel wronged when laws are made and applied that are based primarily on religion. Religion belongs at home and at church, not in *any* branch of government or government controlled or influenced agency. Many other countries have been able to successfully move past this roadblock, and I wish we could, too.

 

[JadeIcing]

I was raised Jehovah's Witness but was encouraged to learn about other religions. My family is a little odd when it comes to religion. Jehovah's Witness don't vote....Yea as you can see I am FOR voting. I have taken a little from MANY religions and have faith in God that is very very firm.

Now do I let my faith interfere with my politics?? NO WAY! I do like to know that my politicians have some kind of faith whatever it may be.

 

[Phinnsmommy]

I didn't like McCains speech... I think he needed to cut the crap. He was like, Barack is a great man, and he will be a great leader for this country, when just a couple days ago he was calling him a communist and terrorist...


I love Obama :biggrin2:.

I really agree on everything he says, and I think he is exactly what our country needs right now.

 

[JadeIcing]

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2008114505/obama-moment-america-looks-mirror-and-celebrates

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Do you celebrate holidays and stuff too?

I am a self-converted catholic - I became catholic around 12 years ago.

I enjoy learning about all faiths. My daughter's best friend is Seekist. Her family is from India. Fascinating stuff!

JadeIcing wrote:

I was raised Jehovah's Witness but was encouraged to learn about other religions. My family is a little odd when it comes to religion. Jehovah's Witness don't vote....Yea as you can see I am FOR voting. I have taken a little from MANY religions and have faith in God that is very very firm.

Now do I let my faith interfere with my politics?? NO WAY! I do like to know that my politicians have some kind of faith whatever it may be.

 

[JadeIcing]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Do you celebrate holidays and stuff too?

Yes and no. I don't sing any songs, I don't go to church. I like to be with family and food. I don't celebrate my bday though some family members give me gifts. I refuse a cake or anything wrapped. I love any excuse to give presents.

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I am a self-converted catholic - I became catholic around 12 years ago.

I don't see me ever doing that. Not sure why but I can go into any kinds of religious building but go into a catholic church and I start to sweat, I want to pass out and it makes me antsy.

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I enjoy learning about all faiths. My daughter's best friend is Seekist. Her family is from India. Fascinating stuff!

That is one I don't know much about that one.

JadeIcing wrote:

I was raised Jehovah's Witness but was encouraged to learn about other religions. My family is a little odd when it comes to religion. Jehovah's Witness don't vote....Yea as you can see I am FOR voting. I have taken a little from MANY religions and have faith in God that is very very firm.

Now do I let my faith interfere with my politics?? NO WAY! I do like to know that my politicians have some kind of faith whatever it may be.

 

[Hazel-Mom]

lalena2148 wrote:

Funny thing is...I don't know why, but I don't really feel like we're a 'christian' country. Maybe because I'm so used to the fact that God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. When we say the pledge of allegience in school it's always 'under God.' I just recognize that all those things were written by very religious people long ago when the country was founded. It was their beliefs that helped found the country, but this place has changed and gone so far since then.

Actually, the contrary is true. "Under God" was not put into the pledge of allegience untill the 1960's! This country was founded on the principle of separation of Church and State.
The constitution was written to that end, and if the Founding Fathers were religious, they did all they could to keep that out of the constitution.
You are right though that the US has changed since then. Unfortunately, religious views have been creeping into the government more and more. The courts, in particular the supreme court, are no longer a-political and a-religious. Too bad. Let's hope the constitution will be upheld once more.

 

[Haley]

Im going to play the devil's advocate here Regarding the, the "separation of church and state", itis not found in the Const, but a letter from Thomas Jefferson is 1802.Some would arguethatthe purpose of the First Amendment isn't to separate church and state entirely (sinceto most people at that time religion was a part of everyday life and the "state" was, in essence, the people)the purpose was to prohibit Congress from making laws establishing a statereligion or from prohibitingthe exerciseof different religions. That would meanthat it isnt that we cant acknowledge the religion that represents the morals this country was founded upon and that most people in this country uphold today, but that we cannot establish it as a state religion that others must follow and we cannot infringe on the rights of others to practice their own religion. Theres a big difference between that schoolofthoughtand the idea that the two shouldnever be thought of together.One only has to look at the Articles of Confederation so see the influence of religion when it says, all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.

Just something to think aboutsince people on the other side got to voice their opinions unopposed!

I love hearing what you in the UK and abroad think about American politics. Although Im disappointed with the outcome of our election, I am so thrilled to see so many people participating and excited about the elections. I majored in political science and Ive always had a passion for politics so its exciting for me to see so many people sharing that same excitement this year

*off to hide my guns and my money* wink wink

 

[BethM]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


The extensive debates over the Second Amendment right to carry firearms really proves that there isn't any way of truly knowing the true meaning that was intended when these words were written. The recent ruling on handguns by the Supreme Court could have gone either way.

The First Amendment seems pretty basic, though, that no laws can be made to encourage or repress any individual religion, or religion in general. Given that there are so many varied religions in the US today, it seems to me that no laws can be made regarding religion at all, otherwise it runs the risk of violating the First Amendment.

The abortion thing, is religious. When a law is made that life begins at the moment of fertilization, that is a religious belief that is in conflict with my own religious belief, and denying me the right to an abortion is prohibiting the free exercise of my own religious beliefs.

Gay marriage, also a religious issue. Personally, I think the term "marriage" should refer to the religious ceremony/aspect of things, and "civil union" should be applied to everyone in reference to the legal aspects (tax code, visitation rights, etc.). Maybe not a popular opinion, but it seems to me that would let the religious people keep their "sanctity" of marriage but give everyone equal legal rights. (Btw, I don't think marriage is all that sacred, anyway. The divorce rates are proof enough of that, to me. It's just a legal thing.)

Evolution vs. Creation.....I don't have a problem with creation being taught in schools, as long as it's taught in religion class. My high school was pretty progressive for a Kansas school, and offered electives in Comparative Religion and World Mythology, as well as a multitude of Science electives. (I took the mythology one, quite interesting.) But Evolution needs to be taught in science class, it is a scientific principle, and anyone graduating today without a basic understanding of the principle is a joke. (I know the arguement, evolution is just a "theory." Well, gravity is just a "theory," too, but I don't know anyone who would dispute it on that basis. Not a valid arguement.) Once again, creation is a religious idea, and if that's what you want to teach your kids at home or in church, that's fine. Anyone who tried to teach me that as fact in a science class, though, would have a world of trouble on their hands. Not everyone believes that idea, therefore teaching it as scientific fact is a violation of my religious rights.

Beyond the basic moral things of prohibiting murder, theft, etc., which are things that help society in general function properly, I don't think laws can be made based on religious values without the possibility of infringing on the religious rights of other groups.

I think that laws forcing one religion's values onto people is really repressive and backwards, and people who think it's ok to do that either don't understand the basic concept of religious freedom in this country, or flat out don't care about anyone's values other than their own.

 

[Hazel-Mom]

Haley wrote:

all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.

Note that they put down "Creator", and NOT "God". Most religions, and even non-religions, do have some belief in a "creator", or at least "creation", though not all call it, her or him "God".
So yes, I still believe that the purpose was to not infringe one religion or set of religious beliefs over any others. That was the whole purpose for breaking away and seeking independence for America, after all: to find freedom from religious oppression, unlike what they were subjected to in England.
Thus the thoughts of many that what has been happening lately IS going against the first ammendment.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Ali, I think a lot of people have a feeling like that who are not Catholic. It is a very "formatted" service, and there has been (sometimes justly) criticism of the church and tons of other issues.

The church was very corrupt many years ago - you had to pay for your sins and stuff.

I don't agree with everything the church stands for but it's a Christian faith and there are some things I agree with completely.

Can you tell me the basis for not celebrating birthdays and stuff? I would think that would be a huge celebration since it's the birth of a new child being remembered....... :huh

 

[Bo B Bunny]

BethM wrote:

The abortion thing, is religious. When a law is made that life begins at the moment of fertilization, that is a religious belief that is in conflict with my own religious belief, and denying me the right to an abortion is prohibiting the free exercise of my own religious beliefs.

There are many laws that could be considered in conflict with someone's religious beliefs. If we didn't have some sort of line drawn, would we not have just a bunch of people doing whatever they wanted?

In some religions, they have had human sacrifice.... and animal sacrifice is not unusual at all..... around the world.

I'm not arguing the abortion thing but saying that it's a hard thing to please everyone....

Gay marriage, also a religious issue. Personally, I think the term "marriage" should refer to the religious ceremony/aspect of things, and "civil union" should be applied to everyone in reference to the legal aspects (tax code, visitation rights, etc.). Maybe not a popular opinion, but it seems to me that would let the religious people keep their "sanctity" of marriage but give everyone equal legal rights. (Btw, I don't think marriage is all that sacred, anyway. The divorce rates are proof enough of that, to me. It's just a legal thing.)

I agree completely - marriage is to me a religious event. However, my hubby and I were first married by the Justice of the Peace.

I consider that a LEGAL union, civil union or whatever.