Will het starve on hay only? (soft stools)

[Spikethebunny]

My 10 yr. old rabbit was primarily on a hay only diet and she had metacam every day and it never caused soft poop or upset her stomach. The only thing I noted was that initially it caused her poop to be slightly smaller. I personally would give the metacam a try. It may help you determine if pain is the cause of your bun not eating hay well.

The increase in soft poop could be due to the diet change, possibly to the orchard grass if it is very leafy and rich. But it's also possible it isn't related to diet. There can be other health issues that may affect a rabbits digestive system, but you would need further diagnostics done to determine if this is the case.

I found it does become more difficult to manage the health issues that crop up as our rabbits become older. My old rabbit never had health issues pretty much until the last year of her life, then she slowed down, lost some weight when she had been a bit pudgy her whole life, her digestive system become more sensitive and she would get soft poop from things that had never caused issues before, and she developed arthritis and spondylosis. My other old bun started having some soft or watery cecotropes unrelated to diet in his last year. It turned out it was due to an underlying health problem. I found with my old buns, that if the problems couldn't be corrected it just became a matter of managing their conditions the best I could, and that's about all you can do if there are no clear solutions.

Thank you SO much for this! I started him on the metacam on Monday night, and immediately have seen an increase in both his movement and hay intake. I am soooo glad you mentioned the smaller poops, cause I saw that, too. I have noticed that he is more energetic and seems to feel best at night and in the morning. By the afternoon, I don't see as much stretching out as usual (he mostly sits in the loaf position, where he used to stretch out in the afternoon or do full flops). I don't know if this means the metacam is wearing off by the afternoon or if it is still his tummy (we are still seeing some soft stools and it is almost always late morning/afternoon we see them). He gets .4 of metacam once daily (the vet recommended night since that has always been when he eats the most hay), but I'm wondering if he should be on .2 twice a day instead? The vet is calling me today to follow up (they have been amazing and have called me every single day, sometimes twice) so I might bring it up.

We are starting to think it was the orchard grass causing the soft stool (as you mentioned). Spike just had a complete exam, and the vet does believe it is diet related. The soft stool happened to start a few days after I introduced him to orchard grass (he wasn't eating as much Tim hay as usual, so I thought I'd try something new). We have now removed all traces of orchard grass to see. I'm thinking it could still be a few days before he goes back to normal, if that was the case? My poor guy. I just want him to feel better. He really hates when he has soft stools. He hates the smell, so he runs from them immediately, and as it is happening, I can tell he is not happy.

But since we started the metacam, I am seeing little glimpses of my boy again. Especially at night and in the mornings. So I hope this continues.

Is it safe to keep him on the metacam? The vet wants him on it long term for arthritis. She did a full blood workup and was very happy with it. She said she will do another in a few months to make sure he is responding okay to the metacam.

And yes, it is hard taking care of an older bun. But I love him so much and just want him to be happy.

 

[JBun]

Studies have shown that rabbits metabolize metacam faster than dogs, so they need higher and more frequent dosing. It won't last 24 hours and is likely wearing off before his next dose. so it's usually better to give it twice daily. I would definitely mention that you think it is wearing off by the afternoon and that you would like to try twice daily instead. You may also need to ask your vet about whether or not you can increase the dose if 0.2ml twice daily doesn't seem as effective. Is it the 1.5mg/ml metacam that you are giving and how much does your bun weight? It is possible he may need a higher dose. I was giving my 1.7kg rabbit at least 0.3ml of the 1.5mg/ml metacam, twice daily(equals 0.6mg/kg which is at the high end of daily dosing for rabbits), so it's quite possible you may find you need a slightly higher dose for your bun.

My old rabbit was on metacam daily for at least 6 months, and I know of other rabbits that have been on it for years without any known ill effects. So yes it's not uncommon for arthritic rabbits to be put on it long term.

 

[Spikethebunny]

Studies have shown that rabbits metabolize metacam faster than dogs, so they need higher and more frequent dosing. It won't last 24 hours and is likely wearing off before his next dose. so it's usually better to give it twice daily. I would definitely mention that you think it is wearing off by the afternoon and that you would like to try twice daily instead. You may also need to ask your vet about whether or not you can increase the dose if 0.2ml twice daily doesn't seem as effective. Is it the 1.5mg/ml metacam that you are giving and how much does your bun weight? It is possible he may need a higher dose. I was giving my 1.7kg rabbit at least 0.3ml of the 1.5mg/ml metacam, twice daily(equals 0.6mg/kg which is at the high end of daily dosing for rabbits), so it's quite possible you may find you need a slightly higher dose for your bun.

My old rabbit was on metacam daily for at least 6 months, and I know of other rabbits that have been on it for years without any known ill effects. So yes it's not uncommon for arthritic rabbits to be put on it long term.

Thank you! I will for sure ask them about splitting it. Spike is a Netherland Dwarf, so he weighs about 2 pounds. He's a tiny guy!

 

[JBun]

Ok, then you are probably giving a high enough dose if it's the 1.5mg/ml metacam, and it just needs to be split to twice a day to be more effective. Keep in mind that it can take a few days for the levels to build up to where it is most effective and you see the best results in pain relief. Good luck! Hopefully this does the trick and you see significant improvement in the next few days.

 

[Spikethebunny]

Thank you! I hope so, too!

 

[Spikethebunny]

Okay, so the last couple days, Spike's been doing better. Eating lots of hay, lots more energy. We've only seen maybe one or two runny stools.

This morning, though, I woke up to a runny stool (which is not normal because he usually only gets them in the afternoon), and now he is hiding in a corner like he did when all this first started.. He is receptive. He wants food. I gave him a tiny bit of the critical care our vet gave us for when he doesn't want to eat as much, and he gobbled it down and looked for more.

We have had both him and his poop analyzed. Vet definitely thinks diet related. He is still getting a few pellets when he gets his metacam at night (so he has a fuller tummy), but no more last night than the last few days.

Is it common for this to get better, then come back when you haven't changed anything? He has had zero greens. Should I eliminate pellets completely? He's only getting 5 or 6 a day. Note: the vet does have me giving him small doses of critical care while he isn't getting full meals. But I don't know if he should still get that while he is eating lots of hay?

 

[JBun]

As long as he seems to be eating his hay really well now, if it were me I would phase out both the pellets and the critical care to see if either of them might be the problem, and just get him down to hay only to try and see if all the poop problems then clear up. It shouldn't hurt anything to try it for several days just to see if they might be the culprit. If it does clear up the poop problems then you know the pellets and/or the critical care are causing the poop issues. Then if it's the pellets that were causing the problem, then you could maybe try gradually reintroducing veggies again one at a time starting with small amounts, though I would try things like cilantro, parsley, carrot tops or rabbit safe forage like apple, willow, or raspberry leaves.

It may just be he became sensitive to an additive in the pellets. I had one bun that couldn't have any pellets at all or it would upset his stomach and lead to stasis.

 

[Spikethebunny]

As long as he seems to be eating his hay really well now, if it were me I would phase out both the pellets and the critical care to see if either of them might be the problem, and just get him down to hay only to try and see if all the poop problems then clear up. It shouldn't hurt anything to try it for several days just to see if they might be the culprit. If it does clear up the poop problems then you know the pellets and/or the critical care are causing the poop issues. Then if it's the pellets that were causing the problem, then you could maybe try gradually reintroducing veggies again one at a time starting with small amounts, though I would try things like cilantro, parsley, carrot tops or rabbit safe forage like apple, willow, or raspberry leaves.

It may just be he became sensitive to an additive in the pellets. I had one bun that couldn't have any pellets at all or it would upset his stomach and lead to stasis.

Thank you. I've started operation: phase out pellets today. I'm going to slowly phase those out and then the critical care so it's not one big jump for him. It's been exactly two weeks since this all started. I see days where it is better and days where it isn't as great. My vet has said if it's not better by next week, they want to see him again. They've already given him blood tests, poop tests, and a thorough exam. It took him 24 hours to calm down after that. I'm worried if I keep bringing him in, the stress will make this worse. Is it normal for this to take so long to get better? I've read articles where it can take a month or two for soft stools to clear up. I'm just wondering if I should be bringing him in again when he has these little bouts of soft stools (always at the same time of day???) and then is better in the evening/night/morning. And through it all, he still wants to eat. I just don't want to make things worse with the stress of another visit, but I also don't want to neglect anything if it's serious.

 

[JBun]

You're right, cecal dysbiosis(which is likely what he has) can sometimes take weeks to months to correct itself depending on how long the problem has been going on. If it he has only had it for a few weeks then it shouldn't take too long for it to self correct once you figure out what food is causing it and stop feeding that food. Just be really vigilant about keeping any soft poop cleaned off him and the fur kept dry, to help prevent flystrike occurring while the weather is warm and there are flies around.

If he seems to be doing well otherwise, I would probably hold off on taking him back to the vet until you have had a bit more time to fiddle with his diet and figure out what food is causing the issue. After all if he is sensitive a particular food then it's all about you being able to try and figure it out and stopping the food, to stop the soft cecals from occurring. There really won't be much of anything the vet would be able to do about it anyway besides recommending diet changes, which is what you are trying already. Though if you have eliminated everything from his diet besides hay for several weeks and it still is happening, then the vet may need to investigate further, but even then I'm not sure what they would be able to do. Diet changes are usually the cure for this type of thing. If some other health problem is causing it, I'm not sure there is really any treatment that can correct it. I personally probably wouldn't bring him back in unless he started not eating well or was having other issues. You've already had all the necessary tests done to help determine if it could have been due to organ failure or a parasite issue, so I would just continue on with seeing if the diet changes help.

If you haven't already read these articles, you may want to take a look. They explain a bit about cecal dysbiosis.
http://sawneeanimalclinic.com/downloads/chronic_intermittent_diarrhea_in_rabbits.pdf
http://rabbit.org/intermittent-soft-cecotropes-in-rabbits/
http://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/

 

[Spikethebunny]

Thank you! Those sheets are very helpful. I'm so perplexed though, because yesterday he had a much better day (we only found one runny stool and it was mixed in with regular ones). Today, I've already seen 4. And where this used to happen in the afternoon, now it's happening in the morning. I'm not sure what has changed.

Last night, he did accidentally grab a hold of some paper towel when I was cleaning a spot where he just missed the litter box. He only got a small piece (man, he can be fast when he wants to), but I don't know if that is what is making today worse?

I've decreased his pellets (he is getting like 5-10 a day, and I'm slowly phasing them out). He is still getting his critical care because it's one of the few ways I can tell if he even wants to eat, and I can give it to him with his metacam so I know he has a full tummy when he gets it). But he is getting less of it. Last night and this morning he ate lots of hay and made plenty of normal poops (I was really keeping an eye on it after the paper towel incident).

Last week we had three good days where we only found one. The rest of the time, there were multiples. Why is he having days where it seems to be better and days where it seems to be worse? Shouldn't it just be getting better? This is why both the vet and I are flummoxed.

I'm nervous to leave him alone for long periods of time, but this week there are two days where both of us have to work (hubby often works nights). I'm such a wreck about leaving him.

 

[AliceTheRabbit]

Romaine lettuce has a lot of water in it which would make his poops softer, of recommend parsley for a snack, they love it, or broccoli in small amounts, etc.

 

[Spikethebunny]

So it has been one month, and we are still finding soft stools. It always happens at one time of day, then the rest of the time, he is fine. He is eating SO much hay. We are refilling his hay basket like 6 times a day (he is only eating Timothy-the long strands. I even removed the hay stacks in case). Everything else has been removed from his diet. Not lettuce for weeks now, no pellets for almost two weeks. All he gets is very small amounts of critical care (5ml) twice a day with his metacam so he isn't taking it on an empty stomach. He is drinking tons of water. The soft stools happen for maybe one hour of the day, then the rest of the time, all is well.

He is HUNGRY. He keeps waiting at the door to the kitchen (cause he knows the food is in there). He will nip at your finger if he smells food on you. He thumps over and over if it takes too long to make the critical care. He runs all over in excitement for that tiny bit of food.

So I guess I don't know why this is still happening. The vet did all the tests and determined it was diet related (I suspect what happened was I gave him a ton of orchard grass when he'd never had it before, because this happened a day or two after he gobbled like a whole bag of it).

I have read it can take 3 weeks to 3 months for this to get better, but it is frustrating not to see progress when he is doing everything right. He is consuming insane amounts of hay and water. Yet today I woke up to more messes than yesterday. Does this get worse before it gets better?

Do I need to get rid of the critical care completely? If so, how do I do that? He is a creature of habit. He gets fed at the same time each day and he is already upset he is getting so little. Plus I need to give him the metacam with something, right?

We are so frustrated, and so is he. It's been a month. We just want this to be better.

 

[JBun]

Critical care has starches/sugars in it, so it is possible it is contributing to the mushy poop. It's also possible the metacam is too, but you probably don't want to stop that even if it is. So I'll just say what I would try in your situation. You don't need to give the critical care as technically if he is eating hay well, then he will have food in his stomach for the metacam. Since he seems to be quite upset about not getting his pellets and lettuce, I would instead try introducing him to leafy greens like parsley, carrot tops, cilantro, basil as a treat instead. If you have access to forage and can accurately identify these things, you could also try things like willow, ribwort/greater plantain, apple leaves, and bramble/raspberry leaves. Of course you'll want to start out with one item at a time in a small amount and gradually increase, but this would give him something tasty to look forward to, and these are things that aren't as likely to cause digestive upset, especially the forage leaves.

One other possibility is that it's just old age related and his digestive tract just isn't functioning as well, so if diet doesn't correct it, it may just be a matter of management. Keeping his bum clipped would probably prove the most helpful in this regard.

 

[Spikethebunny]

Thank you! Yeah, I'm suspicious of the critical care, but my vet keeps insisting it should correct the problem, not make it worse. But I agree with you about the sugars. I have read metacam can cause it, but this was happening prior to us starting the metacam.
I did find the Oxbow Digestive Support in the pet store, and gave him a bit of one to see if he would even eat it. He gobbled it right down (and seemed to think it was a treat), but then it seemed the mushy poops were a bit worse the next day (though, I can't be sure it was that, since he has a pattern of it being good one day and not so much the next, even if we don't change a thing). Would it be worth trying those again? Here is what is in them:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 12.00%
Crude Fat (min) 4.00%
Crude Fiber (min) 8.00%
Crude Fiber (max) 12.00%
Moisture (max) 10.00%
Ash (max) 6.00%
Calcium (min) 0.35%
Calcium (max) 0.55%
Phosphorus (min) 0.30%
Copper (min) 8 mg/kg

Ingredients
Timothy grass, barley flour, oat groat flour, cane molasses, flax seed meal, chamomile, fenugreek seed, brewers dried yeast, dried chicory root (source of inulin), ginger root, guar gum, hydrolyzed yeast, fat product, mixed tocopherols (preservative), rosemary extract

Spike has never had any of the greens you mentioned (years ago, I tried parsley and other herbs and he scoffed at them. He is soooo picky), so I'm a little scared of introducing something completely new again and making things worse.

I have slowly been weaning him off the critical care. He started by getting 10-15ml 3 times a day and is down to 5ml twice a day. I'm hoping to get him off completely. I can definitely try one of the things you mentioned or a bit of the digestive support so he still feels he is getting something.

The bit of good news is he is such a clean little dude, and he lives in a large pen when we aren't home, so his butt isn't poopy at ALL. He goes and leaves the mushy poops in corners of his pen and then runs away because he hates the smell and hates getting dirty. We've been making sure his butt is clean, but so far he is doing a great job of keeping it that way all on his own.

Poor guy. He is doing all the right things (eating boatloads of hay, drinking lots of water, keeping himself clean, taking his meds without fuss), and he thinks he's being punished cause he isn't getting food or snacks. I feel so bad!

 

[missyscove]

Do you have another rabbit or perhaps a friend with another rabbit?
Sounds like maybe he needs some healthy gut bacteria and you might consider feeding him cecotrophes from a healthy bun if you have access to them.

 

[JBun]

I personally wouldn't give them. Grain flours and molasses are just going to contribute to the problem. If you want to give a treat stick with forage or dark leafy greens(non cruciferous). They are a healthy treat that rabbits like and they don't contain all the starches/sugars that other things have. You don't want to be giving anything that has sugars, grains, or starches in it or you are just prolonging this problem. Bad bacteria feeds off of sugars/starches, so you are trying to minimize the amount in the diet and providing lots of fiber to give the good gut bacteria time to reestablish itself.

Honestly I doubt that leafy greens are going to cause much of a problem(though not entirely impossible) if any. That's also why you start out with a really small amount for several days, to make sure it doesn't cause a problem. Just a really small sprig or a small bit of leaf, then if all seems good after 3 days, you can gradually increase the amount. It's up to you, but with any bun I've had that is prone to mushy poop issues, I would be much more inclined to try leafy greens/forage than something high in carbs like those digestive support cookies. In fact giving romaine lettuce again would probably be better than those. Though if you do, avoid the lighter parts of the leaf and only feed the dark green parts, or try green leaf lettuce instead. It's the light part of the leaf that is more likely to lead to poop problems. I've never had problems with leafy greens or forage, but any dietary poop issues I have dealt with have always been linked with pellets or high starch/sugar foods.

 

[Spikethebunny]

Do you have another rabbit or perhaps a friend with another rabbit?
Sounds like maybe he needs some healthy gut bacteria and you might consider feeding him cecotrophes from a healthy bun if you have access to them.

No access to other buns, no.

 

[Spikethebunny]

I personally wouldn't give them. Grain flours and molasses are just going to contribute to the problem. If you want to give a treat stick with forage or dark leafy greens(non cruciferous). They are a healthy treat that rabbits like and they don't contain all the starches/sugars that other things have. You don't want to be giving anything that has sugars, grains, or starches in it or you are just prolonging this problem. Bad bacteria feeds off of sugars/starches, so you are trying to minimize the amount in the diet and providing lots of fiber to give the good gut bacteria time to reestablish itself.

Honestly I doubt that leafy greens are going to cause much of a problem(though not entirely impossible) if any. That's also why you start out with a really small amount for several days, to make sure it doesn't cause a problem. Just a really small sprig or a small bit of leaf, then if all seems good after 3 days, you can gradually increase the amount. It's up to you, but with any bun I've had that is prone to mushy poop issues, I would be much more inclined to try leafy greens/forage than something high in carbs like those digestive support cookies. In fact giving romaine lettuce again would probably be better than those. Though if you do, avoid the lighter parts of the leaf and only feed the dark green parts, or try green leaf lettuce instead. It's the light part of the leaf that is more likely to lead to poop problems. I've never had problems with leafy greens or forage, but any dietary poop issues I have dealt with have always been linked with pellets or high starch/sugar foods.

I just had a look at the critical care ingredients and whoa, you are right about the sugar! And fruit, which I stopped giving Spike a few years ago because it was rough on his tummy. It's weird my vet kept saying it would fix the problem (my vet is pretty rabbit savvy - most of her patients are buns).

I'm going to wean him off the cc this weekend and slowly try some parlsey or dark romaine (once piece at a time) and see. Since he is now two weeks pellet free, I'll leave them out for now.

I really hope we see an improvement once he is off cc. Poor dude. I feel so bad for him (and me, cause I've been up since 3am since I got up to clean his messes and couldn't get back to sleep...)

 

[Spikethebunny]

An update on Spike. We ran him to the vet yesterday because we had not changed a thing and his stools were worse that day. I'd also been noticing a violent rocking with his breathing over the last couple weeks I thought might be a side effect of the metacam.

The first thing they did was weigh him, and in the last 4 weeks, he has become very underweight (which the vet said should not happen when he was eating so much hay, despite the fact we'd decreased his regular food). He had also lost all the fur from under his chin.

They told me they have successfully done X-rays on awake buns many times so I agreed they do those, along with another full work up.

The X-rays showed Spike has a severely enlarged heart (she showed me the X-rays, and it scared me how big it is). It's almost touching his sides, and is pressing into his lungs. There is also some fluid buildup in his lungs.

The vet has put Spike on Furosemide to take the fluid out of his lungs and hopefully help him breathe better. She has changed his painkiller from Metacam to Gabapentin, in case the metacam was the thing making the runny stools worse. She said that while she would normally agree a bum with runny stool should be on strict hay and water, she said she is too scared by his weight to do that. She said our priority is putting weight on him first and getting the fluid out of his lungs, both which should take some pressure off his heart.

So he is on 10-15ml of critical care 3-4 times a day (though, it says he can have a bit more if he wants it). She also wants me to give him very small doses of alfalfa hay, which should give him some protein.

They didn't even bother to X-ray his mouth because, at this point, even if it is a teeth issue, there is no way they would attempt anesthetic when he is underweight and has an enlarged heart and a murmur.

So a lot of what she and the tech were saying is we are mostly making him comfortable now. It could be a matter of time. We have to keep his environment as stress free as possible, and keep him calm, but also let him get some moderate exercise if he wants it.

We take him back next weekend for a follow up to see if he is putting on weight and if the meds are working to reduce the fluid in his lungs.

My poor boy...

 

[JBun]

I'm so sorry this has happened, but I'm really glad you and your vet caught it. I totally agree that getting your buns health condition and weight stabilized is far more important at this moment than his diet.

Just a thought I had that isn't necessarily too important at this moment, but something I thought I'd share. My rabbit that had a thymoma pressing on his heart, also had a bit of sloppy poop each day that was due to his health condition and had nothing to do with his diet. Unfortunately his health problem couldn't be resolved, but there's a good chance your buns can with the right meds and I'm just thinking that it's a good possibility the poop problem could possibly be resolved with it. I know the poop problem is the last of your worries right now with your bun, but just wanted you to know that it was possible the two health problems could be linked and that improving one could also improve the other.

I know your bun is older and you're unsure of how well he's going to do, but just so you know, there are several other buns with enlarged hearts that I'm aware of, that have been successfully treated with the right medications. So it certainly is possible that despite his older age, with these meds on board now, that Spike will start to improve right away. I really hope the best for you both and hope that he soon is feeling better.