Where exactly does your responsibility as a pet/livestock owner begin/end?

[GoinBackToCali]

Today a lady from our 4-H club I barely know called me today about her goat. Apparently I was recommended to them by someone else.

She thought her goat broke it's leg, and she wanted me to come take a gander at it. It was a pet goat that they had bottle fed, and I just had to save it. The father insisted it be put down, I went out their for the daughters sake. I asked the mother if the goat was so important and such a great pet, that why don't they take it to the vet. She said * I don't believe in taking animals to the vet, you save kids and people, they belong at the doctor, not animals, if they get sick, I will do what I can, but other than that, they are on their own.*

Well alrighty then...

So I rode out there, as I arrived, there was a horse in the pasture that was nothing but literal bones. Their excuse was the horse was 18 years old, shes just old and looks like that. I have a couple of horses that age.. they DON'T look like that.

But I digress.

So they took me out to the barn where they had this one goat "sequestered"

The goat had the leg up, and it was hoppin around on 3 legs.

As I am examining this goats leg, there's about 10 other goats outside this stall. She was telling me how she just bought this goat, and she paid a couple hundred dollars for it, and how she bought that goat, and how she just bred this one to that one and that one to this one, and yadda yadda yadda.

So let's get this straight... you won't tend to them if they get sick or injured, but you will put more money out on getting more, and even go so far as to breed them. Your gonna buy them but not be responsible for their welfare.

Her husbands answer was to put a .22 to it's head and pull the trigger, simply because it would take to much effort to take the goat to the vet, it's to much effort to take some time out of your day to tend to this goat and baby it, and give it the care it deserves. The easy way out, the convenient way out for the OWNER was to put a salvageable animal down. Let's not deal with a goat with a limp, a handicapped animal, let's just shoot it and put it out of THEIR (the owners) misery.

The way I see it, having a pet or owning livestock is a priveledge, we have an obligation to their care and well being, not to bail on them, dump them,or put a bullet in their head, or put them downbecause the extra care is not convenient for us. They don't bail on us, let's not bail on them.

For gawds sake, if the possibility of a sick or disabled animal does NOT fit into your schedule, nor into your financial realm of abilities, you have no business owning any, much less buying more, and breeding them to boot.

I have lost a tremendous amount of respect for these people, and those like it.

As for Bandit, the goat... he's in my barn... he goes to the vet tommorrow morning.

 

[pumpkinandwhiskersmom]

As for Bandit, the goat... he's in my barn... he goes to the vet tommorrow morning.

I'm so glad that you saved this poor guy....you are awesome. I totally agree that someone should be shot....like irresponsible, thoughtless people who treat animals as expendable objects.

Way to go, 'Cali!!!!! You ROCK!!!

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Zin, I think that's awful, believe me - I hate people like that - but it's the "farmer" mentality..... They don't see spending any money on the stock because they own them to make them money. It's a product, not a living thing.

When we were at the horse show on sunday, I saw a couple of horses that looked like they hadn't had feed in a long time. I wanted to scream! My horses get better medical care than the whole family does!

Sometimes we have to self-vet or at least attempt to.... but we have to know where that ends.

 

[Luvmyzoocrew]

yay for Zin for taking that goat and giving him the love and respect that he deserves. Unfortunately BBB is right it is the farmers mentalitiy and I HATE IT, to alot of people animals are profit, livestock, or just an animal. I believe as you do that when people take on the responsibility of an animal, regardless of thier mentality of their animal, they still OWE it to the animal to get medical attention when need be. I live in a farm area and this metality and thinking drives me insane, peoples total disregard to their animals.



As far as the horse i thi nk i would wait a week or two and call on them for the horse.

 

[Marietta]

Zin, for me, not being a farmer, therefore, not being able to understand this mentality, what you described was a horror story.... Nevertheless, I don't think that being a farmer means mistreating or neglecting your animals. I guess that most farmers and breeders feel for the animals they raise and don't see them as "things" or "merchandise". Poor little souls, I hate it when animals suffer, I think it's the most unfair and cruel thing...

Marietta

 

[GoinBackToCali]

Lemmie clarify something.. these people are not, and will not ever be classified as farmers.

They have a rickety horse infront of their high dollar out in the boonies home.

As for the goats.. I don't actually know why they have them, they don't even show goats, it's just something they think is cute and cuddly and got way out of hand.

These 4H people are showing a pig because it is the latest lil *new thing* she *thinks* she wants to do. They don't plan on getting another pig.. so her interest is already waning.

While I was there, behind said gorgeous home, was all these mobile homes of dubious condition, and behind that were literally 10 or so broken down hutches in various states of disrepair..

And beyond that... just garbage.. piles of junk that should have been takin to the dump..

Goats and whatever animals they have *lying around* I think are as disposible to them as all that garbage in their yard..

So I just wanted ya'll to know.. it ain't the farmer mentality..

The goat they THINK will be fine... he has a hairline fracture.. and hes nice and sedated at the moment at the vet's

 

[Bo B Bunny]

You know, Zin, that's the other "kind" of jerks...... the ones who think they can buy and sell anything and nothing really matters to them except themselves and their financial situation/status.

:X

 

[gentle giants]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Zin, I think that's awful, believe me - I hate people like that - but it's the "farmer" mentality..... They don't see spending any money on the stock because they own them to make them money. It's a product, not a living thing.

Hold UP! I'm sorry, but that really did offend me. I come from a family of farmers, and none of us think like that. My uncle lives on a farm, raising corn not cows, but still. He had a stray cat move in and start having babies, and it of course went from there. These cats have done considerable damage to his property by peeing everywhere (incuding inside his new truck!) and he really wants to get them all spayed/neutered, just can't afford it. When we can, we catch one or two at a time and take them in to have it done. All of these cats get fed every day, and not just cheap dry stuff either, he gets them canned food and milk when they can. If one is hurt or injured, (assuming it's one he can catch!) it goes to the vet.

Farmers are the same as any other group. Just like with rabbit breeders, there are the good ones like we have on here, and there are the crappy ones that won't spend money for anything but feed.

Now that is my :rant:it's done now.

 

[Haley]

Wow Zin, that is horrific. Im so glad hes with you now. I can understand if its an injury that would cost thousands or is too invasive, but for something treatable thats terrible. And the fact that they would spend so much on animals without ever intending to properly care for them is sickening.

GG, Im sure Zin didnt mean to imply all farmers are like that, but that some people (farmers, breeders,petowners)have that mentality where its all about profit and the animal is simply "stock". I think itswhat separates those who truly love and care for animals and empathize with them, to those who do not.

 

[Luvmyzoocrew]

gentle giants wrote:

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Zin, I think that's awful, believe me - I hate people like that - but it's the "farmer" mentality..... They don't see spending any money on the stock because they own them to make them money. It's a product, not a living thing.

Hold UP! I'm sorry, but that really did offend me. I come from a family of farmers, and none of us think like that.

I am not speaking for BBB but i did agree with the statement , as i stated above, i didnt mean that every farmer or person living out in the country is like that. Just like i cant say every breeder is a bad breeder just because they breed, or make any comparison to a group of people, i was just stating that it just seems like the case most of the time. I think most of the time people with that many farm animals, and some around here with less a nimals, think of them as profit, or disposable. Again I am not speaking for Bo but clarifying what i had said. When i first came here i thou ght all breeders were bad, why would you breed when there are so many rabbits being put to sleep everyday, i have come to the conclusion that there are some very loving and caring breeders here , breeders that would spend tons of mo ney to make sure that there rabbits have the best and are comfortable, I still dont agree with breeding but it help me to see that Every breeder wasnt evil,lol.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Sorry, I should have clarified the "farmer" .... not all farmers are "farmers"... that makes a whole lot of sense huh? My grandpa was a farmer, and great grandpa, and we actually farm...... What I mean is... that some of the farming of livestock becomes product and the "farmers" see it as just that.... nothing more. Especially LARGE commercial operations. I'm definitely not talking about grain farmers either! that has nothing to do with animal care.

I'm sure Zin has seen those types in 4H as well - not a good show pig, send it to market, butcher it, etc. Rabbits and this goat and any other animal like that can be raised as a meat source and if that source is costing you more than you are going to get from it.... well.... that's how livestock farming is. They raise those animals for food... they aren't going to put a lot of effort into fixing a broken leg on a lamb that's going to market next week....

These people Zin is talking about are..... well... idiots.



gentle giants wrote:

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Zin, I think that's awful, believe me - I hate people like that - but it's the "farmer" mentality..... They don't see spending any money on the stock because they own them to make them money. It's a product, not a living thing.

Hold UP! I'm sorry, but that really did offend me. I come from a family of farmers, and none of us think like that. My uncle lives on a farm, raising corn not cows, but still. He had a stray cat move in and start having babies, and it of course went from there. These cats have done considerable damage to his property by peeing everywhere (incuding inside his new truck!) and he really wants to get them all spayed/neutered, just can't afford it. When we can, we catch one or two at a time and take them in to have it done. All of these cats get fed every day, and not just cheap dry stuff either, he gets them canned food and milk when they can. If one is hurt or injured, (assuming it's one he can catch!) it goes to the vet.

Farmers are the same as any other group. Just like with rabbit breeders, there are the good ones like we have on here, and there are the crappy ones that won't spend money for anything but feed.

Now that is my :rant:it's done now.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Also wanted to say thanks to those who "get" what I meant and helped while I wasn't here LOL!

and I think we agree GG - it's just my term for "farmer" ..... it's like puppy mill people are "farmers" - it's too general of a term. Maybe "idiot livestock farm people" would better replace it?

I should have been more specific on how I meant that..... like "old school/hard person farmers vs. more caring/humane farmers"....

also....

livestock farmers/farming is going to be a touchy subject regardless. It's difficult for me even and we have sold lambs to market..... God, I hate it....

 

[gentle giants]

I do know what you mean, Bo, it's just thatIdislikedthe generalization. Ifeel the same way aboutit when anyone with "livestock" treats them like inanimate objects, and I feel the same about that as I do about rabbit breeders. In other words, those that don't give their animals the proper care don't deserve to be called farmers, because I see farmers as good hard-working people, and I am veryproud that I come from a farming family.

So I didn't mean to flame or start a fight, just to make a point. Sorry if I offended anyone with my own words. :hug2:to you Bo, I still love ya! :biggrin2:

 

[GoinBackToCali]

*We need a member of management to customer service.. a member of management to customer service*

Dang people.. calm down.. I love you all...lol

If it helps GG, I hate the generalization that all *rennies* (ren fair workers) are poorly educated shiftless ne'er do wells and we do ren faires because we lack social skills.

I understand where your comin from... the blanket statement.. but I think Bo was thinking one thing and somethin else entirely came out.. no harm no foul..it really is hard to read emotions or tone or infliction into type.

BTW-I like me some farmers... dated this one ol boy.. 6ft8 of country boy goodness..

*sigh*

 

[LadyBug]

pumpkinandwhiskersmom wrote:

As for Bandit, the goat... he's in my barn... he goes to the vet tommorrow morning.

I'm so glad that you saved this poor guy....you are awesome. I totally agree that someone should be shot....like irresponsible, thoughtless people who treat animals as expendable objects.

Way to go, 'Cali!!!!! You ROCK!!!

ditto! awful people:grumpy:

 

[Leaf]

You know, this debate brings to mind a passage in a book I'm reading - so I'll type out the text, though in no way am I comparing anyone mentioned or in this thread to the condition described:

Symptoms of psychopathy, according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, include stealing, lying, substance abuse, financial irresponsibility, an inability to deal with boredom, cruelty, running away from home, promiscuity, fighting and lack of remorse.

Psychopaths are uniquely different from one another in very much the same way that individuals differ from one another.

Which I find interesting given that:

A psychopath might be promiscuous and lie but be financially responsible. A psychopath might fight and be promiscuous but not steal, might torture animals but not abuse alcohol or drugs, might torture people but not animals. A psychopath might commit multiple murders but not be promiscuous. The combinations... are countless.

Of course, there is one underlying "condition" - no concept of guilt.

So, even while there are symptoms of a "trait", it's known that no two are completely alike. No peg can be placed on the grouping in general because though the underlying condition (in the above case,no concept of guilt) may be the same, the signs and symptoms are not all shown in the same fashion.

Of course, in a sense, this is thehuman condition. Do animals suffer from it? In whole, yes. Great suffering by all animals - no.

It doesn't matter whether we are farmers-, breeders-, rescuers-, owners-, caretakers- of animals (etc). We are human beings and we all make decisions based on who we are, our lifestyles and conditioning, our morals, values, beliefs and concience.

Each individual vastly differs from the one next to himself for reasons too numerous to count. However, as social economics allow, classification of individuals in regions are made - and therefore judged by the members of the region lived in, whether they be of the same social classification or a differing one.

While we share the same ties of human-kind, we are, for all its worth, individuals by nature.



Zin, I'm glad you were contacted and you've made the decisions you've come to. Good luck with the goat!





The passages I've taken above come from the book Portrait of a Killer: Case Closed, written by Patricia Cornwell.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Yeah, I thought we were on the same page... it's all good.... I just need to think about what I am saying so I know it comes across correctly LOL!

Leaf, I love books like that!

 

[BSAR]

Im so glad you have the goat in your care now. I can't believe those people said that animals don't belong at the vets. That is just unbelievable.

 

[Leaf]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Leaf, I love books like that!

I really do too! I've always been interested in true crime books. This author (I've read most of her books) is very good in the book and very persuasive. Still, I think it's a shame in a way to pin the guilt on someone while the truth may never be found. I have a movie about Jack the Ripper.. I'm not so fond of it (as far as factual evidence goes), but as movies go, so much is barely touched... and of course it plays out a totally different theory in the case.



I just think it's funny - we ALL have predispositioned notions of individuals or groups of people, admittidly or not.

Working with animals as I do, at times I've been easily swayed into certian types of thinking when it comes to breeders, but along my way I've come to be somewhat more open and accepting of certian circumstances.

Some breeders do have the best interest in mind, and some can actually benefit rescue attempts greatly. I think it's a fine line - I'd have no respect for a breeder that would give up a "rescue animal" for pure breeding purposes, but I could respect a breeder that would place an animal in an appropriate "pet home" situation, or take in a needy animal of their "profession" in order to provide specific care/guidance it needs - something they are able to provide - but then, not if they wanted it for breeding purposes themselves...

So many vague notions are easy to judge- but then as I see some, others may not.



I was emailed today about a turkey someone is trying to find a home for. It has a deformed leg and the people want it to go to a pet home, but they are scared it'll be butchered. I keep trying to tell the people I don't know the first thing (they'd like to hear) about turkey, but unless I can get the Rescue Ranch to take it I *may* end up bringing it home... wise or unwise... all in the thoughts of individuals reading this considering my absolute lack of knowledge about all things fowl.

 

[naturestee]

I need goat pictures!!!

I really hate people like that. I married a farmer and my parents both grew up on farms- I'm used to animals as livestock. But I'm also used to hearing stories about vets being called out in the middle of the night for a sick cow, much-loved 4H project animals being kept as pets instead livestock, etc. There's a reason that there are a number of large animal only vets around here, because farmers and horse ownerscan and do call them.

Sometimes I think the worst people are not the family farmers but the other ends of the scale- large scale factory farms and some of thehobby farmers who don't know what they're doing.

Edit: Leaf, about the turkey try to find a livestock vet who has worked with them before. Domestic turkeys aren't bred to live long but to get really big and can have serious leg problems later in life because of it. If a turkey is born with a deformed leg it's possible that it would need to be euthanized at some point, maybe sooner than later. Then again I've never had one.