We have decided...

[naturestee]

It's one thing to breed, it's another to breed for a reason. 4H is like the kids version of ARBA or BRC for rabbits. You breed for a goal and your rabbits get judged on standards. A big plus for this is that breeders often purchase rabbits from other breeders if they are of good quality. This makes it much easier to find homes for the babies and also decreases the amount of rabbits that actually make it into the over flowing pet rabbit market (and therefore shelters).

Breeding rabbits outside of an established network like the rabbit shows (or wool producers/spinners, etc.) means you need to rely on finding pet homes for every baby rabbit. PLUS it sounds like Becca's parents not only don't want her to adopt but don't want her to keep any babies either. That's not only depressing (it'svery hard to hand your precious babies over to someone else)could be a huge problem, especially if she has trouble finding homes for them fast enough. They need to be separated from the mom and separated by genders at 8 weeks, then generally need to be kept in single cages once they hit puberty because they fight.

Not to mention the annual vaccinations (for deadly diseases in the UK).

Also many breeders here prefer a rabbit to come back to them if the owner can't keep it and are prepared to take care of those rabbits for the rest of their lives if needed. It sounds like Becca's parents wouldn't allow that, which means if the owners of her babies can't keep them for some reason later down the line they are more likely to end up in a shelter.

Yes, they are her rabbits and she can do what she likes with them. But a lot of us are on this forum not just for the people but for their rabbits. There is a lot more to consider when breeding rabbits than just cute babies. And as already stated if she (or other people too) want to raise a litter or two many shelters would love foster homes for pregnant and nursing buns.

 

[BabyBailey]

About 4H- That is so not true. I had a close friend in 4H that didn't have her rabbits judged and she bred them. It was just for fun and she learned a lot on her own.

And she already took into consideration the risks. Why should we even worry about it? and we're all here for our rabbits. We joined because we love them and care for them. If we didn't we wouldn't waste our time here.

 

[clevername]

naturestee wrote:

...it sounds like Becca's parents not only don't want her to adopt but don't want her to keep any babies either. That's not only depressing (it'svery hard to hand your precious babies over to someone else)could be a huge problem, especially if she has trouble finding homes for them fast enough. They need to be separated from the mom and separated by genders at 8 weeks, then generally need to be kept in single cages once they hit puberty because they fight.

Not to mention the annual vaccinations (for deadly diseases in the UK).

Also many breeders here prefer a rabbit to come back to them if the owner can't keep it and are prepared to take care of those rabbits for the rest of their lives if needed. It sounds like Becca's parents wouldn't allow that, which means if the owners of her babies can't keep them for some reason later down the line they are more likely to end up in a shelter.

My concerns exactly.

 

[naturestee]

BabyBailey wrote:

Yes. But some people are picky about what they want or can have. I live in a small apartment and had to have a small bunny. Thats why I went to a breeder for a holland lop. If a person wants something specific and thats what she has then what's the big deal? If they don't go to her for their specific needs, it's not like they are just going to a shelter, they will probably go to another breeder. In brief, If the person was going to go to a shelter they'd go to it anyway. If someone wants one from a breeder they are going to just look at breeders. It's not like if her bunnies weren't there a whole bunch would be rescued. It probably wouldn't change anything at all.



** edited for spelling

I understand that breeders are especially needed for finding less common breeds, but the ones most people want- holland lops, nethies, mini lops, dutch, and mini rex- are also the most common ones in shelters. I and the rescue I help out with get a lot of requests for specific breeds, and you know what? Even if we don't have that exact rabbit as we're a very small rescue we can usually find several at other shelterswithin driving distance. As long as they're small-mid sized at least.

Just in my city shelter in the last few months we've had purebred mini rex, mini lops, holland lops, tons of dutch, a dwarf hotot, a bunch of polish, several nethies, jersey wooleys, fuzzy lops,lionheads, and even two English Angoras!And several possibly purebred harlequins but they're hard to tell. Not to mention the babyloppy rexes and a loppy dutch I'm fostering for the shelter. People can find what they want in shelters, even babies of many breeds, if they look. And shelters (and Petfinder) are often easier to find than breeders of specific rabbit breeds.

 

[naturestee]

BabyBailey wrote:

About 4H- That is so not true. I had a close friend in 4H that didn't have her rabbits judged and she bred them. It was just for fun and she learned a lot on her own.

That's different, because she wasn't breeding as part of the 4H rabbit program. The rabbit program here is pretty competitive- my husband raised and showed rabbits in it as a kid.

 

[BabyBailey]

I think everyone is so past the topic that was started. Why is everyone so against this girl having some baby bunnies? She is responsible and it isn't like shes doing it all the time. Just let her do what she wants without giving her grief,

 

[Phinnsmommy]

Were not giving her grief. Breeding for no reason, there's just no point to it.
She's getting a new baby bunny in a couple of weeks, so she'll get her experience with that.

I just don't see the point to it, when it's just going to add to the overpopulation.

 

[BabyBailey]

But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.

 

[clevername]

BabyBailey wrote:

But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.

ah, but when people have babies they generally intend to keep all of them.

 

[naturestee]

LOL no, you haven't seen anyone actually giving her grief yet. That mainly happens when someone's dead set on doing something dumb like insisting on mating a small doe to a much larger buck or breeding an older virgin doe. Or letting two intactrabbits of different gender "play" together because they're lonely.

This is a civil discussion, it just looks bad to you because so many of us are trying to convince Becca not to breed. That's just because we all have our reasons and strong thoughts about that.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

With all due respect, BabyBailey, the forum members who have posted here have given clear, concise arguments both for and against breeding pets just for the experience. Everyone has made valuable contributions to the discussion, based on both personal and scientific knowledge.

No one is trying to give Becca "grief".

The facts are as follows:
Dippy has already been bred against Becca's will. She made that point very clear to all of us who read her posts.

We are wondering whether she is now actually interested in breeding, or if this is just another way to enjoy the companionship of another bunny.

If she wants a bunny to love, the shelter/fostering options are the way to go.

If Becca wants to experience the breeding process, members have suggested that she learn from an experienced breeder, adopt a pregnant animal or join a breeders association. It is important to understand that by breeding an animal, you are taking on a significant moral and financial responsibility for the health and welfare of that creature and its offspring.

Finally, I must note that Becca is still trying very hard to raise money for Dippy's neuter. This suggests to me that her parents have told her that the rabbits are Becca's financial responsibility. If Becca wants to bring more bunnies in the world, she must be able to cope with the vet costs, food costs, rehoming costs (time and energy and paper for posters), as well as the emotional cost of potentially having rabbits die in the breeding process, or given to uncaring homes.

Becca mentioned that her father was willing to pay for the doe's costs. Why not Dippy's neuter? We don't know. That is an issue that she needs to work out.


We, as a community, are encouraging Becca to make an educated decision that takes into account her interests, her financial situation, and her committment to the health of her two existing pet rabbits. Dippy and Fluffball have to come first.

The decision is hers. And we will support her, regardless of whether we all agree with her decision or not.

 

[naturestee]

clevername wrote:

BabyBailey wrote:

But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.

ah, but when people have babies they generally intend to keep all of them.

But I complain about that too! No really, I do. Mainly when they can't take care of them. Same as with people breeding animals. If you can't take good care of all of them don't do it.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

The question is not as simple and, pardon me, idiotic as totally right and totally wrong.
There are no black and white answers: it is all shades of grey.

The question is, "Is this right for Becca, at this point in time in her life, with her pet rabbits?". We are all trying to make sure she knows the potential ramifications of the decision before she makes her choice.


EDIT: BTW, the overpopulation argument is perfectly relevant to the conversation. Obviously, few people on the planet are capable at looking at the bigger picture, and assessing what would be the best choice for our planetary ecosystems.

If we all screw like rabbits, and have copious amounts of children, then we have an overpopulation issue. Take a look at the homeless and the starving, and tell me that having fewer children wouldn't make a difference.

If we all breed our rabbits for fun without carefully thinking of the short-term and long term consequences of our choices, we get an overpopulation issue (which already exists, in the shelters and the backyards of all our countries).

Your spin on the argument suggests that the choices of one person do not make a difference.
That is not true. Take a look at Hitler. Take a look at Mother Teresa. Take a look at Nelson Mandela.
Take a look at the big picture, and see the ripple effect.

 

[Spring]

We all know Becca is very intelligent and responsible, and it's good that we are having this discussion, so she knows exactly what the outcome is either way. She's already madea pro/con list, which is a great way to deal with a situation when you are caught in the middle .

I've personally never had a litter of baby bunnies (unfortunately) but even myself cry when I get home if a shelter bunny gets adopted, and that's just from seeing them on a weekly basis.. even if they went to a fantastic home, I still miss them.. I just couldn't imagine watching a litter of babies grow up, then having to rehome them. Probably why if I were to adopt a pregnant doe, I'd be in a situation to keep all the babies.. I can just imagine how hard it would be to part with the babies, who really turn into your rabbits.. you get so attached to them after 2 months, I know for me at least it would be heartbreaking.

Becca, I think you can get the same experience, maybe even a more valuable experience in other ways besides Fluffball having babies. Even the litter you are going to pick your new baby from, what about spending more time with them? That way you don't have to be sitting on pins in needles all throughout a pregnancy, don't have to deal with possible dead kits, rehoming the babies etc. Or even talking with a breeder nearby and coming maybe weekly to play or see the baby bunnies?

You could very well end up with 5+ babies.. I know in Pebbles (a lionhead) she was in a litter of 7! It may not be simple finding homes for all the babies, and I know you were trying to figure out housing just for your current 2 + new addition.. what if you ended up with 10 bunnies that you had to take responsibility for if you weren't able to find good, suitable homes for?

I hope you don't take any of this as being harsh, just trying to share experiences, because we don't want you to be in a situation that you may not want to be in, or have bitten off more than you can chew.

 

[undergunfire]

Becca....I think you and your family need to go volunteer at a kill shelter, not just for bunnies, but for dogs and cats, too. You will see the sadness and hell inside of a kill shelter...dogs and cats are sick and have days to live. Why? Because people like you want/do breed "fun" litters.

If you breed your rabbits, you will be killing 2x the amount of shelter rabbits. How? Once a shelter rabbit gets adopted, another rabbit gets to fill that cage...that saves 2 lives. If you breed and adopt out the babies....you just let 2 rabbits die (per baby you adopted out) in a shelter because your "fun" litter stole their homes. If Fluffball has 6 rabbits...you just allowed 12 shelter rabbits to die under needle.

I think deep down, you know breeding your rabbits is wrong. You need to follow your heart and HAVE A HEART to not breed more rabbits into this world.


I probably sound harsh, but people need to wake up and look past their own lives....look into the shelters and the real world. Humans are responsible for all the death in beloved pets, because they are careless.

 

[Becca]

Okay, I have now made everyone argue amongst themselves - Last night I was watching Fluffball, she was happily binkying and having the time of her life. I do not want to bring pain, suffereing and maybe death onto such a sweet little girl.

I am putting everything on hold until I get the new baby bunny in 37 days. Then when he/she has settled in, I will then get Dippy neutered.

Then I can think of getting Fluffball spayed and having all their vaccinations done.

Then and only then I will think about fostering - to help a bunny be well enough for adopting.

Sorry that I made everyone argue :shock:

 

[JadeIcing]

BabyBunnies wrote:

Okay, I have now made everyone argue amongst themselves - Last night I was watching Fluffball, she was happily binkying and having the time of her life. I do not want to bring pain, suffereing and maybe death onto such a sweet little girl.

I am putting everything on hold until I get the new baby bunny in 37 days. Then when he/she has settled in, I will then get Dippy neutered.

Then I can think of getting Fluffball spayed and having all their vaccinations done.

Then and only then I will think about fostering - to help a bunny be well enough for adopting.

Sorry that I made everyone argue :shock:

I stayed out of this for the most part.

Putting her through it could be a risk for her. It could be fine. I believe you know these risk well. This is my concern. If something happened to her how would you be. Mostly considering the recent loss of Nibbles. I would hate to see you go through another loss.

Waiting on getting the baby than going back over everything could be the best for all involved. You, the bunnies and your family.

3 bunnies can be alot of work, but add on a litter. Which can range from 1-8 (that is what I would think for a little bun.) would be ALOT of work. If you are expected to care for all of them what would you do if 4 or 5 get sick at once. Could you stay home from school to care for them?

No one is arguing just discussing.

------------------

BabyBailey wrote:

But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.

Big Difference- Bunnies can and will more than likelybePTS when a potential home is taken away. A child will not be PTS.

I think for now this topic is closed. I am however very very proud of how everyone conducted themselves.

 

[Becca]

I know thats why I said b4 i'm not breeding. I've already decided that.

 

[MissBinky]

Hihi, we weren't giving Becca grief. In fact, she said herself that she had many pros and cons and wasn't exactly seeing which was best at the time.

The thing to always keep in mind, for all of us, is that the bunnies are in our care. Breeding for fun is a decision a human makes, but that the bunnies live with. We need to decide for our bunnies what is best for them.

Personally, Becca, I think you have a good head on your shoulders to be able to sit, listen, and rationalize. Neutering and spaying your buns will allow you to house them together if they like each other, and most likely prevent them from getting cancer. I think, that, in the end, is a great decision for them and it's a good quality of life Part of what worried me was the fact that Becca is still in school and the more she advances, the more schoolwork she will get and it will be hard to balance both, especially if a litter ever needs special care. It would also put a lot of pressure to find homes for the babies as fast as possible since she cannot keep any and that might play emotionally too. You certainly do not want to rush rehoming bunnies. I do think you'd make a good foster mom Becca.

 

[Becca]

MissBinky wrote:

I do think you'd make a good foster mom Becca.

Thanks, I hope so! - If we do it will either be later in the year or next year because I want the new baby to settle in properly and hopefull neuter and spay Dippy and Fluff.