Snuggys Mom
Well-Known Member
I like soy burgers and I don't mind tofu if it's in a tasty recipe. I've made curry tofu with basmati rice and it was YUMMY!
Laura
Laura
Vegetarian/Vegan
- Thread starter Lissa
- Start date
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alfie and angel
Well-Known Member
Sliced Tofu roasted with garlic salt, mixed spices and soy sauce - so yummy!
Jenniblu
Well-Known Member
It helps to plan out your meals and nutrition. I was a vegetarian for over a year and then feel off the wagon. I've been trying to come back for about a year now, because I felt so much better without eating meat - more energy, less extra weight, less digestive problems, etc. I'm trying to get back on the wagon before my 31st B-day (Sunday).
Laura wrote:
Laura wrote:
chubbers422
Well-Known Member
I have a thought both ways on becoming a vegetarian. I love animals so much, that I hurt when I eat meat, but... I am a christian (sorry if anyone out there isn't...) and I believethat Jesus put some of the animals here for us to eat. Even Jesus, who died for us, (please listen... I am NOT trying to start anything!!!:?) ate fish. Although there were not many other foods for them to eat back then. I don't think there was much of anything at all. My parents are NOT vegetarians.. and my father grew up very country. So he believes that it's not cruel to eat an animal. I'm not sure what to think.. and am a little confused. Can someone PM me with some advice?
I don't see how drinking milk or eating Cheese or Eggs hurts an animal, though??
And what exactly is a Vegan? lol. I don't really have anyone around here to talk to about this, and I don't know any vegetarians. Thanks guys,
Rachel (please PM me.. I will forget about this post!!!)
I don't see how drinking milk or eating Cheese or Eggs hurts an animal, though??
And what exactly is a Vegan? lol. I don't really have anyone around here to talk to about this, and I don't know any vegetarians. Thanks guys,
Rachel (please PM me.. I will forget about this post!!!)
m.e.
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Well, I'll pm you as well, but just to be clear, God did not allow the eating of meat until after the Flood. The Biblical record suggests that not only were the first people vegeterians, so were all the animals. And after the Flood that changed (there's a lot of different arguments as to why that might be, including environmental changes, etc.)
Another interesting thing is that in the descriptions of the "new Heaven", the animals are vegeterians again: the wolf and lamb grazing together, the lion eating straw with the ox. Will we be vegetarians as well? It's hard to imagine any death in Heaven:dunno
I believe it is wrong to treat animals cruelly. Period. And I think a logical conclusion would be to stop eating meat because factory farmed animals are treated cruelly (including cows for dairy production, and hens in egg 'factories'). I don't think it is wrong to kill animals, but I also don't think it's in any way un-Christian to avoid meat and animal products because of your strong convictions in that area.
Ethical reasons, though, are not limited to killing animals. Some people are vegs because they believe factory farming, cattle grazing, etc. is damaging to the environment. That's yet another ethical position that many Christians hold.
Another interesting thing is that in the descriptions of the "new Heaven", the animals are vegeterians again: the wolf and lamb grazing together, the lion eating straw with the ox. Will we be vegetarians as well? It's hard to imagine any death in Heaven:dunno
I believe it is wrong to treat animals cruelly. Period. And I think a logical conclusion would be to stop eating meat because factory farmed animals are treated cruelly (including cows for dairy production, and hens in egg 'factories'). I don't think it is wrong to kill animals, but I also don't think it's in any way un-Christian to avoid meat and animal products because of your strong convictions in that area.
Ethical reasons, though, are not limited to killing animals. Some people are vegs because they believe factory farming, cattle grazing, etc. is damaging to the environment. That's yet another ethical position that many Christians hold.
doodle
Well-Known Member
chubbers422 wrote:
I don't know that much about it, but have always thought with cheese and milk, etc., it's because of the bad conditions the animals are kept in.
I'm also curious about the difference between vegetarian and vegan. I'm thinking it's that vegetarians don't eat meat, but vegans go further and don't eat or use any products (if they can help it) that come from animals or where animals are used for testing??
Is that right, or is there more to it than that?
Sorry for my questions, I just don't know that much about it and am interested in learning.
I was also looking at the lists of products/companies that do and don't do animal testing, but didn't see Neutrogena on either list. Does anyone know if they do or not?
I don't know that much about it, but have always thought with cheese and milk, etc., it's because of the bad conditions the animals are kept in.
I'm also curious about the difference between vegetarian and vegan. I'm thinking it's that vegetarians don't eat meat, but vegans go further and don't eat or use any products (if they can help it) that come from animals or where animals are used for testing??
Is that right, or is there more to it than that?
Sorry for my questions, I just don't know that much about it and am interested in learning.
I was also looking at the lists of products/companies that do and don't do animal testing, but didn't see Neutrogena on either list. Does anyone know if they do or not?
HollynRabbits
Active Member
Greta i was also vegetarian for a week or sooo i couldnt stand any longer i had to have tuna, finally i gave in and scarfed down a can of tuna and just decided maybe another day!!!:disgust:i couldnt do it :rabbithop
chubbers422 wrote:
As far as Christianity, my decision to not eat flesh is separate from my religion. I don't believe that it is wrong as a christian to eat meat. Both vegetarianism and Christianity I feel strongly about. And I've struggled with this topic a lot until I came to the realization that they are two separate issues, not to be merged.
Vegan is not eating animal products, wearing them (fur, leather, etc.) and not using products tested on animals. I consider mysefl vegatarian which is 50/50 (half vegetarian half vegan). The only thing that keeps me from being vegan is eating cheese. I love cheese. Do I believe it's wrong to eat cheese? It isn't as wrong as eating an animal. Nobody dies. But at the same time, are these animals being treated in a humane manner? Probably not.
As far as Christianity, my decision to not eat flesh is separate from my religion. I don't believe that it is wrong as a christian to eat meat. Both vegetarianism and Christianity I feel strongly about. And I've struggled with this topic a lot until I came to the realization that they are two separate issues, not to be merged.
loplover
Well-Known Member
What do vagens think about eating things that have egg or dairy produtds in them. Like cookies and cake?
chubbers422
Well-Known Member
Why do they not eat eggs or milk? I don't get it... the animals will not use it. ??
chubbers422 wrote:
Although I've been veggie for 12 years, I haven't eaten chicken for a lot longer as Ionce visited a factory chicken farm (called battery hens in UK). I was physically sick. The smell was unbearable, and the hens were in tiny cages (so they can't turn around) all on top of each other.
As for milk, the cows are repeatedly made pregnant, their calves taken away and killed, so the milk can be used for human consumption instead of the calf.
Jan
It's mainly to do with the terrible conditions factory farmed animals are kept in.
Although I've been veggie for 12 years, I haven't eaten chicken for a lot longer as Ionce visited a factory chicken farm (called battery hens in UK). I was physically sick. The smell was unbearable, and the hens were in tiny cages (so they can't turn around) all on top of each other.
As for milk, the cows are repeatedly made pregnant, their calves taken away and killed, so the milk can be used for human consumption instead of the calf.
Jan
FlopsnWills
Well-Known Member
i was a vegetarian for a year, and at the time it was because of the way animals are treated in those horrible slaughter houses. i stopped vegetarianismbecause i pretty much gave up and i knew i wasn't changing anything... and i also really missed burgers. when i was a vegetarian, i didn't eat chicken or fish and people thought that was so strange. i might go back to it eventually, but for now, i don't have the will power.
lissa- morningstar hasthe best fake meat out there! i loved their italian chicken marinara sandwich.. yummy!
lissa- morningstar hasthe best fake meat out there! i loved their italian chicken marinara sandwich.. yummy!
FlopsnWills
Well-Known Member
yes, and not only are cows pumped with hormones and antibiotics (that we ingest), chickens are pumped with hormones to make them lay un-natural amounts of eggs.
HollynRabbits
Active Member
and go from a 1 day old chick to a hen in about 3 weeks!!! thats is soooo unatural too....:bunnydance:
Martina
Active Member
Vegan: excludes animal flesh (meat, poultry, fish and seafood), animal products (eggs and dairy), and excludes honey and the wearing and use of animal products (leather, silk, wool, lanolin, gelatin...).
*Cheese and Dairy... Well a lot of people don't realize what rennet is,it was already talked about but people keep asking so... *most*cheeseunless it clearly says otherwise has animals based rennet in it which is the stomach liningof slaughtered newly-born calves, a lot of the times they are taken right away from there mothers which are usuallydairy cows,usually they are cut open when they are still alive when the people are trying to take there stomach contents. So that is killing and a lot of people thinkcheese iscruel free and vegetarian which obviously it mostly isn't. So dairy cows which are the mothers of these rennet calves are kept in bad conditions there calves are taking away from them and life is not great at all! oh and then they get killed when they stop producing enough
*Eggs... battery hens are kept in horrible conditions, The battery hen is an anxious, frustrated, fear-ridden birds forced to spend 10-12 monthssqueezed inside a small wire cage with up to9 othertormented hens.Caged for life without exercise while constantly drained of calcium to form egg shells, battery hens develop the severe osteoporosis of intensive confinement know as caged layer fatigue. Calcium depleted, millions of hens become paralysed and die of hunger and thirst inches from their food and water. Battery hens are debeaked with a hot machine blade once and often twice during their lives, typically at one day old and again at seven weeks old, because a young beak will often grow back. Debeaking causes severe, chronic pain and suffering which researchers compare to human phantom limb and stump pain. Between the horn and bone of the beak is a thick layer of highly sensitive tissue. The hot blade cuts through this sensitive tissue impairing the hen's ability to eat, drink, wipe her beak, and preen normally. Debeaking is done to offset the effects of the compulsive pecking that can afflict birds designed by nature to roam, scratch, and peck at the ground all day, not sit in prison; and to save feed costs and promote conversion of less food into more eggs. Debeaked birds have impaired grasping ability and are in pain and distress, therefore eating less, flinging their food less, and "wasting" less energy than intact birds.
*"Free Range" Eggs...In order to get laying hens you have to have fertile eggs and half the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once or raised as table birds (usually these days in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. So for every free-range hen happily scratching around the garden or farm who, if she were able to bargain, might pay rent with her daily infertile egg, a corresponding male from her batch is enduring life in a broiler house or has already been subjected to slaughter or thrown away to die. Every year in Britain alone more than 35 million day-old male chicks are killed. They are mainly used for fertilizer or dumped in landfill sites. The hens are also culled as soon as their production drops. Also be aware that many sites classed as free range aren't really free range, they're just massive barns with access to the outside. Since the food and light are inside the chickens rarely venture outside. So any barn with a door can be considered "free range" which is pathetic.
*Gelatin is not vegetarian, It is made from boiledbones, skins, hoofs, tendons and ligaments of cows, pigs, fish and other animals, I don't see how so called vegetarians call them selfs that when they admit they eat gelatin but say they don't eat meat.
*Bees and Honey... Bees are killed in the production of honey, in the worst case the whole hive may be destroyed if the keeper doesn't wish to protect them over the winter. Not all beekeepers do this, but the general practice is one that embodies the attitude that living things are mere *material* and have no intrinsic value of their own other than what commercial value we can wrench from them. Artificial insemination involving death of the male is now also the norm for generation of new queen bees. The favoured method of obtaining bee sperm is by pulling off the insects head. Decapitation sends an electrical impulse to the nervous system which causes sexual arousal. The lower half of the headless bee is then squeezed to make it ejaculate. The resulting liquid is collected in a hypodermic syringe.
*Cochineal/Carmine...Cochineal is a bright red colouring matter made from the dried bodies of a Mexican insect Dactylopius coccus. Billions of these insects are raised and destroyed each year for a red colouring that is used in desserts, some strawberry soya milks, clothing, etc.
*Silk...It is the practice to boil the cocoons that still contain the living moth larvae in order to obtain the silk. This produces longer silk threads than if the moth was allowed to emerge. The silkworm can certainly feel pain and will recoil and writhe when injured.
*Wool... Scientists over the years have bred a Merino sheep which is exaggeratedly wrinkled. The more wrinkles, the more wool. Unfortunately, greater profits are rarely in the sheep's best interests. In Australia, more wrinkles mean more perspiration and greater susceptibility to fly-strike, a ghastly condition resulting from maggot infestation in the sweaty folds of the sheep's over-wrinkled skin. To counteract this, farmers now perform an 'operation' without anaesthetic call 'mulesing' in which sections of flesh around the anus are sliced away, leaving a painful bloody wound.
Without human interference, sheep would grow just enough wool to protect them from the weather, but scientific breeding techniques have ensured that these animals have become wool-producing monstrosities.
Their unnatural overload of wool (often half their body weight) brings added misery during summer months when they often die from heat exhaustion. One million sheep die in Australia alone each year from exposure to cold after shearing.
Every year, in Australia alone, about ten million lambs die before they are more than a few days old. This is due largely to unmanageable numbers of sheep and inadequate stockmen. Of UK wool, 27% is "skin wool," pulled from the skins of slaughtered sheep and lambs.
*Down/Feathers... The process of live-plucking is wide spread. The terrified birds are lifted by their necks, with their legs tied, and then have all their body feathers ripped out. The struggling geese sustain injuries and after their ordeal are thrown back to join their fellow victims until their turn comes round again. This torture, which has been described as "extremely cruel" by veterinary surgeons and even geese breeders, begins when the geese are only eight weeks old. It is then repeated at eight week intervals for two or three more sessions. The birds are then slaughtered. The main countries using this cruel process are China, Poland and Hungary, where some 60 per cent of down produced is live-plucked. The down market in the UK alone is worth around 2.6 million pounds per year. The "lucky" birds are plucked dead, i.e. they are killed first and then plucked.
*Protein... Should I be worried about getting enough protein on a vegan diet? No, not as long as you're taking in enough calories. Official recommendations suggest that eating 8% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%. Nevertheless, dietary studies show the adequacy of plant foods, as sole sources of protein as does the experience of healthy vegans of all ages.
The main protein foods in a vegan diet are the pulses (peas, beans and lentils), nuts, seeds and grains, all of which are relatively energy dense. As the average protein level in pulses is 27% of calories; in nuts and seeds 13%; and in grains 12%, it is easy to see that plant foods can supply the recommended amount of protein as long as the energy requirements are met.
*Iron..."Iron deficiency, unlike protein deficiency, sometimes is a real problem, but meat is not the answer." The American Dietetic Association said in 1988 that vegetarians don't have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than non-vegetarians.
If you are concerned about getting enough iron, avoid eating iron-rich foods along with substances that inhibit iron absorption: phytates (found in high-bran and unmilled cereals), polyphenols (such as tannins in tea) and calcium. Eat iron-rich foods along with foods containing vitamin C, which aids absorption. Good sources of iron include dried figs and prunes, dark-green leafy greens, legumes, certain whole grains such as quinoa and millet, blackstrap molasses, nuts and nutritional yeast. Acidic foods cooked in cast-iron pans are also good sources of the mineral.
There are good books about vegan things and a lot of great recipes, some helpers like people who are more active and less active and in between, so it helps you plan what you need, that is if you need help with enough energy and stuff If you are thatnot good at planing it out. It helps vegan athlete's work things out too, if you think you need more.
:shock:What did I forget? As you can probably tell I'm very much vegan and don't get me started on meat
There are great substitutes for meat and dairy, I love Earth Balance vegan butter, It tastes just like real butter as far as I remember and non vegan family has agreed. There are really great egg alternativesand you can cook and bake or whatever with them.There are great vegan burgers and what nots that taste really good too. There are great soy milks that taste just like milk.If you miss things like cheese or ice cream there are great vegan products that taste like them or you can make it your self like I do. I missed chocolate andIce Creamso I make my own Vegan chocolate"Ice Cream" with tofu and other things, sure it sounds bad butIt is perfect and I got the recipe in a vegan cookbook along with vegan brownies that take only 4minutes to cook anda lot of really gooddinner recipes too, even though I make more desserts
Oh and no offence but if you eat meat (including fish)and veggies you are an omnivore, If you don't eat meat a day or two out of the week you are not a vegetarian or a veganyou are still an omnivore
So that is my two cents I hope I didn't sound to preachy but at least I practice what I preach
*Cheese and Dairy... Well a lot of people don't realize what rennet is,it was already talked about but people keep asking so... *most*cheeseunless it clearly says otherwise has animals based rennet in it which is the stomach liningof slaughtered newly-born calves, a lot of the times they are taken right away from there mothers which are usuallydairy cows,usually they are cut open when they are still alive when the people are trying to take there stomach contents. So that is killing and a lot of people thinkcheese iscruel free and vegetarian which obviously it mostly isn't. So dairy cows which are the mothers of these rennet calves are kept in bad conditions there calves are taking away from them and life is not great at all! oh and then they get killed when they stop producing enough
*Eggs... battery hens are kept in horrible conditions, The battery hen is an anxious, frustrated, fear-ridden birds forced to spend 10-12 monthssqueezed inside a small wire cage with up to9 othertormented hens.Caged for life without exercise while constantly drained of calcium to form egg shells, battery hens develop the severe osteoporosis of intensive confinement know as caged layer fatigue. Calcium depleted, millions of hens become paralysed and die of hunger and thirst inches from their food and water. Battery hens are debeaked with a hot machine blade once and often twice during their lives, typically at one day old and again at seven weeks old, because a young beak will often grow back. Debeaking causes severe, chronic pain and suffering which researchers compare to human phantom limb and stump pain. Between the horn and bone of the beak is a thick layer of highly sensitive tissue. The hot blade cuts through this sensitive tissue impairing the hen's ability to eat, drink, wipe her beak, and preen normally. Debeaking is done to offset the effects of the compulsive pecking that can afflict birds designed by nature to roam, scratch, and peck at the ground all day, not sit in prison; and to save feed costs and promote conversion of less food into more eggs. Debeaked birds have impaired grasping ability and are in pain and distress, therefore eating less, flinging their food less, and "wasting" less energy than intact birds.
*"Free Range" Eggs...In order to get laying hens you have to have fertile eggs and half the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once or raised as table birds (usually these days in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. So for every free-range hen happily scratching around the garden or farm who, if she were able to bargain, might pay rent with her daily infertile egg, a corresponding male from her batch is enduring life in a broiler house or has already been subjected to slaughter or thrown away to die. Every year in Britain alone more than 35 million day-old male chicks are killed. They are mainly used for fertilizer or dumped in landfill sites. The hens are also culled as soon as their production drops. Also be aware that many sites classed as free range aren't really free range, they're just massive barns with access to the outside. Since the food and light are inside the chickens rarely venture outside. So any barn with a door can be considered "free range" which is pathetic.
*Gelatin is not vegetarian, It is made from boiledbones, skins, hoofs, tendons and ligaments of cows, pigs, fish and other animals, I don't see how so called vegetarians call them selfs that when they admit they eat gelatin but say they don't eat meat.
*Bees and Honey... Bees are killed in the production of honey, in the worst case the whole hive may be destroyed if the keeper doesn't wish to protect them over the winter. Not all beekeepers do this, but the general practice is one that embodies the attitude that living things are mere *material* and have no intrinsic value of their own other than what commercial value we can wrench from them. Artificial insemination involving death of the male is now also the norm for generation of new queen bees. The favoured method of obtaining bee sperm is by pulling off the insects head. Decapitation sends an electrical impulse to the nervous system which causes sexual arousal. The lower half of the headless bee is then squeezed to make it ejaculate. The resulting liquid is collected in a hypodermic syringe.
*Cochineal/Carmine...Cochineal is a bright red colouring matter made from the dried bodies of a Mexican insect Dactylopius coccus. Billions of these insects are raised and destroyed each year for a red colouring that is used in desserts, some strawberry soya milks, clothing, etc.
*Silk...It is the practice to boil the cocoons that still contain the living moth larvae in order to obtain the silk. This produces longer silk threads than if the moth was allowed to emerge. The silkworm can certainly feel pain and will recoil and writhe when injured.
*Wool... Scientists over the years have bred a Merino sheep which is exaggeratedly wrinkled. The more wrinkles, the more wool. Unfortunately, greater profits are rarely in the sheep's best interests. In Australia, more wrinkles mean more perspiration and greater susceptibility to fly-strike, a ghastly condition resulting from maggot infestation in the sweaty folds of the sheep's over-wrinkled skin. To counteract this, farmers now perform an 'operation' without anaesthetic call 'mulesing' in which sections of flesh around the anus are sliced away, leaving a painful bloody wound.
Without human interference, sheep would grow just enough wool to protect them from the weather, but scientific breeding techniques have ensured that these animals have become wool-producing monstrosities.
Their unnatural overload of wool (often half their body weight) brings added misery during summer months when they often die from heat exhaustion. One million sheep die in Australia alone each year from exposure to cold after shearing.
Every year, in Australia alone, about ten million lambs die before they are more than a few days old. This is due largely to unmanageable numbers of sheep and inadequate stockmen. Of UK wool, 27% is "skin wool," pulled from the skins of slaughtered sheep and lambs.
*Down/Feathers... The process of live-plucking is wide spread. The terrified birds are lifted by their necks, with their legs tied, and then have all their body feathers ripped out. The struggling geese sustain injuries and after their ordeal are thrown back to join their fellow victims until their turn comes round again. This torture, which has been described as "extremely cruel" by veterinary surgeons and even geese breeders, begins when the geese are only eight weeks old. It is then repeated at eight week intervals for two or three more sessions. The birds are then slaughtered. The main countries using this cruel process are China, Poland and Hungary, where some 60 per cent of down produced is live-plucked. The down market in the UK alone is worth around 2.6 million pounds per year. The "lucky" birds are plucked dead, i.e. they are killed first and then plucked.
*Protein... Should I be worried about getting enough protein on a vegan diet? No, not as long as you're taking in enough calories. Official recommendations suggest that eating 8% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%. Nevertheless, dietary studies show the adequacy of plant foods, as sole sources of protein as does the experience of healthy vegans of all ages.
The main protein foods in a vegan diet are the pulses (peas, beans and lentils), nuts, seeds and grains, all of which are relatively energy dense. As the average protein level in pulses is 27% of calories; in nuts and seeds 13%; and in grains 12%, it is easy to see that plant foods can supply the recommended amount of protein as long as the energy requirements are met.
*Iron..."Iron deficiency, unlike protein deficiency, sometimes is a real problem, but meat is not the answer." The American Dietetic Association said in 1988 that vegetarians don't have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than non-vegetarians.
If you are concerned about getting enough iron, avoid eating iron-rich foods along with substances that inhibit iron absorption: phytates (found in high-bran and unmilled cereals), polyphenols (such as tannins in tea) and calcium. Eat iron-rich foods along with foods containing vitamin C, which aids absorption. Good sources of iron include dried figs and prunes, dark-green leafy greens, legumes, certain whole grains such as quinoa and millet, blackstrap molasses, nuts and nutritional yeast. Acidic foods cooked in cast-iron pans are also good sources of the mineral.
There are good books about vegan things and a lot of great recipes, some helpers like people who are more active and less active and in between, so it helps you plan what you need, that is if you need help with enough energy and stuff If you are thatnot good at planing it out. It helps vegan athlete's work things out too, if you think you need more.
:shock:What did I forget? As you can probably tell I'm very much vegan and don't get me started on meat
There are great substitutes for meat and dairy, I love Earth Balance vegan butter, It tastes just like real butter as far as I remember and non vegan family has agreed. There are really great egg alternativesand you can cook and bake or whatever with them.There are great vegan burgers and what nots that taste really good too. There are great soy milks that taste just like milk.If you miss things like cheese or ice cream there are great vegan products that taste like them or you can make it your self like I do. I missed chocolate andIce Creamso I make my own Vegan chocolate"Ice Cream" with tofu and other things, sure it sounds bad butIt is perfect and I got the recipe in a vegan cookbook along with vegan brownies that take only 4minutes to cook anda lot of really gooddinner recipes too, even though I make more desserts
Oh and no offence but if you eat meat (including fish)and veggies you are an omnivore, If you don't eat meat a day or two out of the week you are not a vegetarian or a veganyou are still an omnivore
So that is my two cents I hope I didn't sound to preachy but at least I practice what I preach
loplover
Well-Known Member
I would just like to say that it is so nice to be able to have this "Dicussion" were we voice out opinions and are able to ask questions of eachothers belifes with out geting all bent out of shape with each other. I enjoy seeing were other people are coming form on issues like this and often find that If I ask people about it they get offended.
