Update on Popeye

[Torchster]

I had Popeye at the vets for more tests today...and I got the news.

-Dilated cardiomyopathy with aortic stenosis
-Ascites (small amount of fluid in the belly) which indicates congestive heart failure
-CBC - pending
-Chemistry - mildly elevated liver values most likely related to heart issues and excess fluid in the belly; elevated calcium probably dietary related (this really bothers me cause I work so hard on this); kidney values normal

I'm pretty down at the moment. It was pretty hard to hear.

They recommended the following medications and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about these medications?

Lasix (furosemide) .06 ml every 12 hrs
Enalapril .15 ml every 24 hrs
Pimobendan .09 every 12 hrs.

I didn't get much of chance to talk to the doctor, I only got to do it by phone because of my work schedule. I am pretty scared to ask this next question... I could not do it in person (its pretty hard to do just typing it)...I'm wondering what his prospects are.

Enough for now.

 

[Pipp]

So sorry it wasn't something easy.

Those are good drugs, it sounds like your Vet is on top of it. Lasix is a diuretic to get rid of the fluid, the enalapril is to lower the blood pressure (or something), the Primobendan is a new heart drug, works better than the old ones.

Best of luck to you and Popeye.


sas ray:

 

[ra7751]

Sounds like your vet is on top of things. I can offer only a couple of suggestions. Elevated liver values are often related to the stress of the trip to the vet. With the lasix, it is very important to maintain a proper diet. And the calcium levels are probably not so much dietary as other concerns. Part of the elevated calcium is most likely due to the renal impairment that comes with CHF. Couple of things you can do....first,make sure your pellets include Vitamin D supplements (primarily D3). You can also use full spectrum lighting in Popeye's living area. Not the heat lamps used with reptiles but full spectrums that are used either in reef (salt water) aquariums or for human light therapy. Vitamin D is essential in helping the body absorb and use calcium. And as we have discussed, a healthy lifestyle with plenty of exercise.

And there is always hope. And I have a rabbit that several years ago suffered a near fatal build up of fluid in his chest. He had his head held up and breathing open mouth. He was treated aggressively....and he is still here. Getting up there in years but still here and healthy now. I think you and your vet are doing all the right things.

Randy

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

Torchster wrote:

I had Popeye at the vets for more tests today...and I got the news.

-Dilated cardiomyopathy with aortic stenosis
-Ascites (small amount of fluid in the belly) which indicates congestive heart failure
-CBC - pending
-Chemistry - mildly elevated liver values most likely related to heart issues and excess fluid in the belly; elevated calcium probably dietary related (this really bothers me cause I work so hard on this); kidney values normal

I'm pretty down at the moment. It was pretty hard to hear.

They recommended the following medications and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about these medications?

Lasix (furosemide) .06 ml every 12 hrs
Enalapril .15 ml every 24 hrs
Pimobendan .09 every 12 hrs.

I didn't get much of chance to talk to the doctor, I only got to do it by phone because of my work schedule. I am pretty scared to ask this next question... I could not do it in person (its pretty hard to do just typing it)...I'm wondering what his prospects are.

Enough for now.

no dry eyes here,,my hopes and prayers are with you,,,like randy says,,he is still here,,and the best is being done...sincerely james wallerink iris::rose:

 

[tonyshuman]

Unfortunately, there isn't a lot you can do to improve the heart conditions. Popeye will just have to live with them. I think with this vet's help, and the medications given (enalapril helps with high blood pressure and recovery from a heart attack, and pimobendan helps the heart work better and help with some other side effects of a heart attack, like ascites). These drugs will extend his life but this condition is not treatable. If he were a human, he'd probably have to have surgery to repair the aortic valve.

I did find this encouraging article, though, about a therapy given to dogs that's similar to what your vet is doing with Popeye. The dogs were given furosamide (Lasix) with either an ACE inhibitor (enalapril is an ACE inhibitor) or pimobendan, and those with pimobendan lived longer than those with the ACE inhibitor. With the ACE inhibitor, 4 months of life were the average, and with pimobendan, 9 months was the average, and symptoms of the heart failure went away quickly.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/60791.php

It sounds like your vet knows what he's doing. Enjoy this time you have with Popeye--it may be difficult, knowing he has this condition, but you get to spend more happy days with him as a result of the treatment, and that's really what it's all about, in my opinion--having the most happy days you can fit into a lifetime.

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

Randy, I wish I'd had you to talk to with my first bun!! You rock.

Torch,

I'm so sorry to hear this news. I've gone through this. My first rabbit, who was kinda big, but not a Flemish, developed CHF at age 6. I treated with 2 of the same meds, Lasix and Enilapril. Listen to Randy as far as the Vit D,that's good stuff to know.

Keep us posted. If you would like to or need to talk, pm me.:hug:

P.S. I had trouble giving the meds after he caught onto it and developed a couple tricks. Best of luck, let me know if you have any questions/concerns.

Here is a thread that was started here in the Library of my expirience with the disease:

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12361&forum_id=10

 

[Torchster]

This is a cross post from my blog...

This whole Popeye thing gets...well worse. I've been in contact with the rescue that I got Popeye from. I'm not really mad at them. These rescues do the best that they can with almost no support. They have been very nice about things. They had no faith and have had bad experiences with the vet I went too. Although they have no idea about any of Popeye's medical history, they are very concerned about what the doc had to say. They say that they had Popeye fixed recently and they don't understand how he could have survived the operation if his heart was in such bad shape. They also just don't see the behavoral changes that they expect to see in Popeye that should be there with severe case of heart failure.

They are going to take Popeye to a vet that they trust (although I am going to pay cause I know that they have no money for this kind of stuff). The vet they want to go to is kind of far away from me and very difficult to get to for me - so I am going to pay for the visit and they are going to do the transport. The meds won't be in until next Wednesday anyway.

I'm really torn here. On the one hand I want my Popeye to be OK. On the other hand I don't want to think that they could have screwed up so big. I just don't know what to think- things are kind of up in the air and all over. Ugh.

If the vet is wrong and Popeye is OK, then I've spent like $1500 on bills and meds - but Popeye is OK. I guess that is the most important thing and that I was I really want, but I find it hard to believe that they could be that wrong.

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

bills add up quick,,my god-$1500.,if the rescue is willing to have another opinion,,i believe it would be best for popeye,and exonorate the rescue,,then go after the $1500.,,when dealing with rabbits,,it does take a dvm exotic-specialist-,,others i feel.,only get lucky,,if the rabbit survives---this is from my own observation and what i have experienced...sincerely james waller

 

[tonyshuman]

I am wondering if the neuter weakened his immune system and allowed an infection to take hold. One of those cardiac conditions you listed is caused by a streptococcus bacterium in most cases--it's how a simple strep throat turns into a life-threatening heart infection in humans, if you're familiar with that.

 

[Torchster]

Listen, to be frank, I dunno. I feel like I am caught between the rescue and a Dr. they don't like. I really don't care, I just want my baby to be OK, that is all I really want. I don't want money from anyone, I don't want to point fingers at anyone...I just want Popeye to be OK.

If he isn't OK, that I want to do the best for him that I can.

That is all.

 

[tonyshuman]

Hugs to you. It's so hard when one of our babies is sick and we feel like we can't do enough. I'm sure you're doing the very best you can and Popeye is in great hands.

 

[Torchster]

All, the second vet that the rescue took him to confirmed all of the findings. His temp was only 95, so he has probably taken a turn for the worse. They said that he might not survive the trip home, so he is staying at the vets overnight.

My worst nightmare has come true.

 

[tonyshuman]

ray:ray:ray:ray:

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

Torchster wrote:

All, the second vet that the rescue took him to confirmed all of the findings. His temp was only 95, so he has probably taken a turn for the worse. They said that he might not survive the trip home, so he is staying at the vets overnight.

My worst nightmare has come true.

low body temp,,can,t be good,,is he in the icu now,,warming uint,,iv,s,,etc.>??..wow,,i-am pulling for him,,i believe...sincerely james waller:rose::wave:

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

How is Popeye??

 

[Torchster]

I got Popeye and he is home. He appears OK. I have lots of meds to give him. He appears to be ok, but it appears that the bonds may have broken down. I'll write more in my blog.

 

[Torchster]

But, I have new issue. The bond between Popeye and Petunia seems to have broken down. I'd notice some minor issues between them last week, but I didn't think it was a big deal. Bert and Popeye were like, hey dude, sup? Oh nothing and you? But Petunia was doing a lot of chasing and with Popeye's heart issue, I thought that I needed to put a stop to it.

I gave them 15 minutes of the spin cycle on top of the dryer and put them in the most neutral place I have that bunny safe. I fenced off part of the hallway and tried putting them in there after the spin cycle. But she was still chasing him around. I finally decided that they had to be separated. They can all see each other, but there is a x-pen keeping them separated. I have Bert and Popeye together in the hallway...and Petunia in their old cage.

With Popeyes heart, I don't want Petunia chasing him around. I don't think that they were playing tag, I think that Petunia was going after him and he was trying to find place to hide. I've never seen her this aggressive. She has been coming out of her shell as of late, but I can't have this.

Now I have to figure out what to do.

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

:bump

I posted in your blog, but please put your updates here. Thanks.

Thinking of you guys.:hug:

 

[RandomWiktor]

Animals unfortunately often react adversely to ill or weak conspecifics. Such animals are attractive to predators & spread disease to the group, so instinctively, social prey animals tend to reject ailing companions. This rejecting can sometimes be aggressive/violent, especially in the captive environment. It's a horrible thing to watch but it may not be avoidable. Personally, I would consider seperating them - maybe through a barrier where they can still easily see and smell each other so they don't get too lonely - so that Popeye isn't stressed by this behavior with his weak heart.

So sorry you and your bun are going through all of this.

 

[Torchster]

I've pretty much resigned (sp?) myself to the fact the Petunia will never accept Popeye. She seems to do OK when I put them in a carrier...but the second I get them in open space she chases after him. Perhaps the stress of the carrier makes her behave. I've never seen this kind of aggressive behavor out of her before, she is such a timid bunny.

This has really upset the balance at home. My perception is that Bert preffers to be with Popeye over Petunia. I have seen some minor chasing of Bert by Petunia too, but nothing like what she does with Popeye. With Petunia not being one for much human contact, at least she has never really cared for me much...I'm concerned for her. I'm sure I could put Popeye in with Bert and they would be very happy. But that would leave Petunia by herself. She doesn't always come out right away and usually keeps away from me when she does have out time. It would seem to me to be a lonely existence.

It makes me very sad that the trio is not working out. I work so hard try and get a happy trio.