Two (Still) Sick Buns...Oy...

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

You know, I'm not sure if this will help, but I got a free sample of Zupreem Timothy hay pellets the other day, and their literature talks about how their pellets are so much better for bunnies with sensitive stomachs because they don't have wheat or soy ingredients, which can cause trouble. My bunnies have steel tummies (knock on wood), so I didn't really think about it at the time, but maybe this brand would be a better choice for your (and others') sensitive bunnies?:dunno

After all this craziness, I may be done with pellets. I now feel leery of them as a food source. Emma's vet (and Randy) has reiterated the fact that rabbits aren't designed toeat pellets and recommends that I stick with hay and leafy greens. That sounds like a plan to me at this point.

I must say, however, that I had no idea that Zupreem's pellets don't contain wheat or soy. I would think that that's good news (unless they still contain some other form of grain that can still harbor mycotoxins--but I hope not!). Thank you for the information; I will keep it in mind, just in case.

 

[tonyshuman]

I just grabbed the package: no wheat or soy, but yes on corn, flaxseed, yeast. I bet those could get mycotoxins. Not sure though, but good protein (14%) and fiber (28%)..

 

[JimD]

Unfortunately, mycotoxins can originate in the hay as well....both timothy and alfalfa.

We rely on the pellet manufacturer to use uncontaminated hay...as well as proper production, storage,and transportation.

It's a lot easier to inspect and control the hay than pellets.

 

[Jenk]

JimD wrote:

It's a lot easier to inspect and control the hay than pellets.

Jim, can you describe the warning signs of Mycotoxins in hay? Better safe than sorry.

 

[Pipp]

Jenk wrote:

Jim, can you describe the warning signs of Mycotoxins in hay? Better safe than sorry.

Here's the Library link...

Mycotoxin Poisoning

Unfortunately, mycotoxin poisoning can mimic the symptoms of just about everything else out there. It's very hard to spot and diagnose without testing the feed.

And as with other types of toxic substance ingestion issues, not all bunnies will react the same way, or indeed react at all. As an example, check out the response I just made to Blackberry's thread about Milkweed poisoning, here:

Blackberry cannot walk, she is not eating



sas :clover:

 

[JimD]

Jenk wrote:

JimD wrote:

It's a lot easier to inspect and control the hay than pellets.

Jim, can you describe the warning signs of Mycotoxins in hay? Better safe than sorry.

I don't know if we could determine if hay has mycotoxin contamination, but I believe that the hay would most likely show signs of mold as well.

Just like picking out produce for ourselves (or our buns)....we're always looking for the best....good smell/look/feel, etc.
We feed our buns by the handful and get to see what we're giving them.
On the other hand, the manufacturer is cutting down whole fields at a time.

I've cut and baled hay/alfalfa before and found bales down the line that were no good, because they came from low/wet areas of the field....or it had been wet during drying.
They went bad if we kept them....you could smell it as you broke off flakes......into the compost pile they went.
And this was for cows and horses....which I think are more resilient of the toxins than our buns are.

 

[Pipp]

JimD wrote:

I don't know if we could determine if hay has mycotoxin contamination, but I believe that the hay would most likely show signs of mold as well.

Excellent point. I was always very worried about moldy hay, especially since I keep my bales in a bathtub, and I have a couple of bunny break-in artists who manage to get on top ofthe stack to munch and pee their little hearts(and bladders) out.

Butwhen I did grab amoldy handful (from the tap area), the smell was VERY evident! There wasn't a lot of mold but there was a lot of mold stink!



sas:yuck

 

[Pipp]

BTW, this may not be the casehere,but for the benefit of other regular stasissufferers,there's a post on Etherbun from Rami from MediRabbit that mentions if bouts of stasis appear regularly -- like once a month -- it could be a sign of If theintestinal worms/eggsgoing through a cycle, and theycan't always be detected with a fecal exam. He suggeststreatment withfenbendazole or praziquantel (depending on the worm).

Somebody else in that same thread said that their bunny was going through regular monthly bouts of stasis, the vet did blood work and found high creatinine and BUN levels that turned out to bekidney disease, which was then controled through regular sub-Q fluid therapy.

I'll add to that the issue offood sensitivites.I have a rabbit who can't eat cilantro without getting gas(the only one in the warren) anda cat who can't eat fish and another ingredient (yet to be determined but possibly corn or gluten) in cat food without getting dry, flakey skinand urinary crystals.

(And I can't eat apples without getting a stomach ache or touchtomatoes without gettingeczema).

My three foster bunniescame here with a chronic history ofsoft and large poops, and I'm not sure what I did other than put them on mega-salads -- their pellet brandremained the same (although they getless of it) and they were always getting lot of hay --but I haven't had that problem.

I alsoposted in Blackberry's thread about symptoms ofmilkweed poisoning mimicking EC and other ailments, and that symptoms varry with various varieties, the amount ingestedand rabbitsensitivities. Certainbunnies will react to ingestion of 'toxic' plants while others won't. Sometimes it takes prolonged exposure.

It took a year or more of experimenting withvarious brands of cat food toget my cat's allergies under control, and I found almost all the info in the Net after havinga number of vets just shrug.

And FTR, I just ran out of the regular three brands of canned cat food I usually buy and got some cheap stuff from the grocery store, and suddenly all the cats are coughing up hairballs galore. Maybe it's just the season, but I won't be surprised if it stops when they get their regular food back.

I'd personallystart experimenting withdietwhen it comes tochronic stasis or other digestive issues the vet can't pin a cause on.

sas :bunnydance:

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

...If bouts of stasis appear regularly--like once a month--it could be a sign of If theintestinal worms/eggsgoing through a cycle, and theycan't always be detected with a fecal exam. He suggeststreatment withfenbendazole or praziquantel (depending on the worm).

Somebody else...said that their bunny was going through regular monthly bouts of stasis, the vet did blood work and found high creatinine and BUN levels that turned out to bekidney disease, which was then controled through regular sub-Q fluid therapy.

I'll add to that the issue offood sensitivites.

It took a year...of experimenting withvarious brands of cat food toget my cat's allergies under control, and I found almost all the info in the Net after havinga number of vets just shrug.

I'd personallystart experimenting withdietwhen it comes tochronic stasis or other digestive issues the vet can't pin a cause on.

But Emma's now 11-mos.-old. Could parasites just now be cropping up and causing her problems? It doesn't seem likely to me, but I'm open to learning otherwise.

Per the vet, Emma's blood work indicates completely normal kidney function.

As for food sensitivities, here's what I know about the timing ofEmma's:She and Zoe were fed a new brand of timothy hay. Zoe loved it; Emma decreased her hay consumption. Around that same time, I started feeding Emma a small amount(1/16 to 1/8 C.) of pellets. Whether it was the hay, Emma's unwillingness toeat much of it, or the pellets, I don't know. (I did learn, though, to not entrust my husband to keep an eye on her hay consumption; I now observe it like a hawk.)

Emma was not eating anystomach-upsetting veggies at the time. I am now, however, trying her and Zoe on a larger variety of greens. They're eating mint leaves, celery leaves, red-leaf lettuce,green-leaf lettuce,parsley, and spinach. Last night, I added a tiny amount of dandelion to the mix (since I found a semi-fresh bunch of it at the grocery store).

I'll continue to experiment with diet and whatnot. Per the vet (who does know his stuff when it comes to rabbits), Emma's blood work doesn't indicate any organ malfunction or signs of Mycotoxins or e. Cuniculi. (Apparently, specific values increase--or decrease--in the presence of these pathogens.)

 

[JimD]

Over the past several months I've had good results by supplementing Chippy's diet with vitamin C.

It was suggested by Randy.

I didn't want to stray to far from her normal diet, and I really didn't want to introduce something completely new.
I found that the dried papayaI had been giving her as a treat, actually had a high percentage of Vit C as well. So I started giving her some on a daily basis and she seems to have improved.


Edited to add:

Chippy has always had large & abnormal poops....over 4 years now.
And I'm sure the bout with Clostridium compromised her system in some way, too.

 

[Jenk]

JimD wrote:

Over the past several months I've had good results by supplementing Chippy's diet with vitamin C....

...I started giving her (dried papaya) on a daily basis and she seems to have improved.

Did Chippy havea problem with a slow-moving (even stasis-suffering) digestive tract before the extra Vit. C?

Right now, Zoe's gut seems to be slowing again (surprise!). I'm still feeding her leafy greens and even syringe-feeding her extra water, which she thinks of as a treat. But when Emma goes to the vet this Sat., I may take Zoe along to have him determine where she's slowing down (stomach or intestines) to determine the next course of action.

 

[JimD]

Jenk wrote:

JimD wrote:

Over the past several months I've had good results by supplementing Chippy's diet with vitamin C....

...I started giving her (dried papaya) on a daily basis and she seems to have improved.

Did Chippy havea problem with a slow-moving (even stasis-suffering) digestive tract before the extra Vit. C?

Right now, Zoe's gut seems to be slowing again (surprise!). I'm still feeding her leafy greens and even syringe-feeding her extra water, which she thinks of as a treat. But when Emma goes to the vet this Sat., I may take Zoe along to have him determine where she's slowing down (stomach or intestines) to determine the next course of action.

Sorry...I edited my last post before I saw this..


Chippy has always had large & abnormal poops....over 4 years now.
And I'm sure the bout with Clostridium compromised her system in some way, too.

Her GI issues come and go....no regular pattern or common cause is apparent.

 

[Jenk]

JimD wrote:

Chippy has always had large & abnormal poops....over 4 years now.
And I'm sure the bout with Clostridium compromised her system in some way, too.

Her GI issues come and go....no regular pattern or common cause is apparent.

Zoe also has abnormally-shaped poops. Unfortunately, her large poops sometimes dwindle to an abnormally-small size; that's whenshe takes motility drugs to get things going again.

 

[myheart]

Maybe you could ask your vet about Prozyme. It is an enzyme powder that aides in digestion. My vet recommended it for Patrick because his poops are tiny and abnormal shaped. I have been very concerned about the size of his poops because he eats normally, but not sure where all of his waste goes. The Bene-Bac helped for a bit, but then his poops went back to being tiny, hard, and tear-drop shaped.

I ordered the Prozyme 85 gram bottle on his vet's recommendation at prozymestore.com. The vet said it would come in a capsule and that I should break one open and sprinkle it on Patch's food daily. It will also help with his digestion as his teeth disappear.

The website offered a free bottle of the prozyme (possibly because I looked at the site, found what I needed, and closed it because I didn't have my debit card on hand at the time). Sometimes sites keep track of when you visit and/or purchase something. So the next time I went one, the site offered a "free" bottle of prozyme (cost of shipping $6.00). It arrived a few days later, but as a bottle of powder (1/4 tsp per cup of food, but I only use a shy1/8 tsp which seems to be enough for the little guy since the vet only recommended one capsule).

So far I have tried it in his pumpkin and on his cheerios.He nibbled both up readily, especially the pumpkin. I didn't want to risk giving him too much pumpkin in a row, so that is why I decided to try it on the cheerios. The directions also state on the bottle that if the prozyme gets wet prior to consumption, it actives the enzymes prematurely.

Anyhow, he has LOTS of poops, even though they are still sort of small and misshapen. The quantity of output is much more than before and it has only been three days of having the prozyme. His attitude in general is much better--he seems happier meaning I now get lots of circle and hums now which makes me happy. He also has a much better appetite, eats everything I give him including the romaine which I thought he hated.

Don't know if any of this information will help you, but I can't see how an all natural enzyme product could hurt. One bottle would last a very long time at 1/8 tsp per bunny every day. Might not hurt to investigate further...

myheart

 

[Jenk]

myheart wrote:

Maybe you could ask your vet about Prozyme. It is an enzyme powder that aides in digestion. My vet recommended it for Patrick because his poops are tiny and abnormal shaped. I have been very concerned about the size of his poops because he eats normally, but not sure where all of his waste goes. The Bene-Bac helped for a bit, but then his poops went back to being tiny, hard, and tear-drop shaped.

Both Emma and Zoe currently take a plant enzyme/probiotic compound, whichI sprinkle on their greens just before serving them.

I do the same thing: wonder where Zoe's waste goes because she has an awesome appetite.I usually then remindmyself that she tends to havevery large poops--basically equivalent to 10 (or more) normal-sized poops; so I assume that she's eliminating more waste in her fewer, larger poops. :?