Took D to the vet today...

[Kaylee]

I know I don't really post here but I was hoping someone could answer a few questions for me. I took my rabbit Dutch in to see the vet today because he hasn't been eating well and his poo production is down. Small pellets only once a day or so and his stomach is swollen. I'm thinking GI Stasis, she didn't give me a diagnosis per se but what she explained sounds like stasis to me. So, she gave him an exam, took an xray, gave him sub-q fluids, buprenorphine for the pain, and metoclopramide to try to get his intestines working correctly again. They kept him for the day and I picked him up after work with instructions to bring him back in the morning if he's still not eating.

I got him home and looked him over. He has aspot on his neck, I assume from the fluids or a shot, that keeps oozing clear fluid. They didn't mention this, is it normal to leak for so long? I got out of work at 5pm, it's 10pm nowand still leaking. Also, behind his right arm is swollen. It's not hard or firm, and he doesn't seem to mind too much when I touch it. It feels soft and squishy but I know that it wasn't there when I dropped him off this morning. I'm checking with the vet in the morning to see what she thinks, I just was hoping for some information beforehand.

If anyone has thoughts as to what's going on, or suggestions, things I could check with the doctor about, they would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Maureen Las]

If they gave her sq fluids then it will cause a lump under the skin ..if they used a large diameter needle then fluid could leak

if it is just clear fluidI wouldn't worry..

you can also give her some fluids at home if you want to help the process along. Some of us believe that fresh pineapple juice helps during stasis attacks , also pedialyte. It has to be the juice from a fresh pineapple .

it is more important for her treament right now that she be getting fluids rather than eating.
I'll give you a link on GI stasis

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=28622&forum_id=10
recently on this forum we have been discussing the pros and cons of giving a motility drug like metoclopromide. Some experts advise giving it but most of us on this forum try not to use it unless really necessary I will give you are most recent link on the discussion of this drug and you and your vet can talk about it tomorrow.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=28622&forum_id=10

be sure and let us know how he is doing.

 

[tonyshuman]

I can see that the neck spot would be from sub-q's, but what about under the front leg? Another place for sub-q's?

When you have him at home, offer lots of hay, water with vanilla flavoring, fresh pineapple juice, and veggies soaked in water. You can also give Bene-Bac (it's in the dog medicine section) to help the gut bacteria.

I hope he passes through this ok!

 

[Kaylee]

Okay, the vet said that the leaking was from the sub-q and the spot behind his leg was probably from the fluids pooling.

He spent the day at the vet's again today. They syringe fed him water and a pellet mush since he still doesn't want to eat. He nibbles on his hay here and there but won't drink more than a sip or two of water. He does a little better with veggies. I can get him to eat some parsley every now and then and I got him to eat some celery leaves last night. I was a little hesitant about the celery stalk though. Would that help or hinder his gut with the extra fibers? What should I use for vanilla flavoring? A couple drops of vanilla extract? Unfortunately I can't get fresh pineapple juice, I have no idea where I'd find a pineapple here. And I'll mention Bene-Bac when I talk to the vet tomorrow.

They also gave him more buprenorphine and metoclompramide and something to help break things up in his intestines. It started with an l but I can't remember the name. Some kind of laxative...

I bought some simethicone. He's going back tomorrow and I figure I can leave it with them when I drop him off and they can give it to him if they think it will help. I asked them about it when I dropped him off this morning and they said it might help but they didn't have any. I gave him 1 cc tonight.

They were going to show me how to give him the injections but would rather he came in so they could keep a closer eye on him and make sure he's getting enough fluids. Which works a little better for me because this way I know someone is keeping an eye on him while I'm working. I'd hate to come home and find out he hadn't touched any food or water in 9 hours and this way I can call and check on him over my lunch break.

 

[Maureen Las]

I never use vanilla extract so can't help you with that but if you have some juice you could add some to his water.

if you can get pedialyte that would be even bettter (infant electrolyte replacement formula )
You can get benebac at petco or get a big tube of probios in a farm store (For horses but same thing)

celery stalks can be risky with buns because of the strings so just feed the leaves.I think the stalk can be fed if cut up fine ...
try other wet veggies in small amounts like parsley and cilantro

It often times takes time for things toget moving .....

many of us are concerned abouthe routine use of metoclopromide as it does cause muscle contractions and other side -effects , however that is something you can ask your vet about. Many of us on the forum use pineapple juice, pedialyte and /or subq infusions, over a repeated amount of time to get the gut moving again rather than gut motility drugs oif possible
Please keep us up-dated and remember that these things take time....

 

[Kaylee]

Okay, I'll definitely ask her about the moetoclopramide tomorrow. It doesn't help matters that he's molting and keeps grooming himself. More so than usual.

 

[tonyshuman]

Vanilla: I just add a drop to a bowl of water. The recipe I think is 1tsp to 1gallon, but just a drop should be fine. Don't put much in at all--vanilla extract is mostly alcohol by volume so you just want to put enough in to make it smell a bit enticing. Imitation extract is fine too.

Pedialyte is also something to offer to get him re-hydrated. It comes in fruit flavors so he may be more interested in drinking that too.

Bene-Bac is made for dogs, but contains a lot of benficial bacteria that should be in a rabbit's GI tract. I have personally only used it once but I have heard good things about it. The idea is that the GI bacteria are very important in keeping stuff moving right, so giving that can repopulate those bacteria.

good luck--

 

[Maureen Las]

You know right (as of last 2 hours) I am dealing with a bun that just refused parsley whenI gave them their greens a little while ago. He is in a molt. I just felt his abdomen and it feelssoft but if he refuses the greens it's either gas or the beginning of something. I noticed that some of his poops are strung together with hair.

I already gave him some fresh pineapple juice, some pedialyte and also some simethicone . he still isn't eating .
I will give benebac and some more fluids later and then by tomorrow if he isn't pooping i will continue with the same

Usually ifI catch this in the beginning I get them them out of it with the above tx
if i continued that for awhile and it still doesn't help i will be going to the vet also.

metoclopromide cause the muscles of the stomach to contract and causes the food (hairball)to move along ; problem is is if their is blockage it will just be like pushing at the blockage which cannot move along and that could be a severe problemlike a rupture

We have benn discussing this as a group recently as some doctors feel that it is fine and some don't ; we feel that it should be used wisely and thoughtfully if at all (some of us won't use it ; some of us under certain conditions)

In your case you cannot be at home to care for him 24/7 so it's best for him to get round the clock treatment
and it's best to bring it up with your vet
possibly you could ask him why fluid treatment is not enough if it is done for a long enough period of time '
back to the buns
mine are going into molts as of the last few weeks so I feel like we are going to be running into some of the same issues as you are

very stressful but part of having a rabbit...

 

[ra7751]

Just have a sec...is your vet rabbit savvy? Sounds like they are treating a cat or dog. I have a huge problem with using gut motility drugs. They cause some severe contractions which are very painful. The Buprenorphine most likely will dull the pain but that drug also slows the gut. Laxatives should never be used in rabbits. Not only do they cause dehydration (it's counter-acting the fluids which isn't what you want) and many of them also alters the pH and makes things more alkaline. You need an acidic gut to get things back on track.

If this rabbit were in my care.....this is what I do (anddon't do)and keep in mind that I am not a vet. Hydration is a priority. Keep the fluids goings. Something I use to break up the ingesta mass is fresh squeezed pineapple juice. No idea why it works and it's controversial if it does....but it has always come thru. I do not use motility drugs for any reason at any time (and none of my vets will prescribe them for a rabbit). As you stated, the idea is to break things up and get them moving. The contractions induced by the motility drugs will not break up anything....quite the opposite, they compact the mass into a more denseand impacted mass....again, the opposite of what you need.A growing and dehydrated mass of ingesta will never pass thru the lower GI. And those drugs cause painful contractions and we know how rabbits respond to pain. In a bit of holistic treatment here....try fresh mint. That always soothes an upset GI. I would not use celery period.Wet leafy greens help with hydration. Also during GI events, the pH will change radically and some harmful bacteria will grow. I suggest an antibiotic called Metronidazole (Flagyl). It is excellent at controlling the harmful bacteria (usually Clostridium) that grows in these events. This drug also has huge anti-inflammatory properties in the gut and that helps with pain. That should eliminate the need for Buprenorphine which slows the gut on it's own. I do not force food.....rule of thumb is "hydration before nutrition". All you get by forcing food into a stalled gut is bloat....and that is especially true when using a heavy food like Critical Care. They will not die from lack of food in a few days...but they will from dehydration. I have had rabbits not eat anything for over a week.....but I kept them hydrated. And I use Bene-Bac or similar probiotic to help support and stabilize the pH in the gut to re-establish a favorable environment for the repopulation of benefical bacteria. And don't rush things....nothing good happens fast with a rabbit.

Pedialyte is a great rehydrating electrolyte. A couple that are even better at oral rehydration are Rebound (marketed by Virbac and available at many vet clinics) or Electro Stat available in powdered form from Fox Valley Nutrition (I use many of FV's products in wildlife work). But it's hard to beat sub-q LRS for simplicity and effectiveness. While IV or IO is even better, neither of these routes are something that most can do at home....I highly suggest learning how to adminster fluids sub-q.

Hope things work out well.

Randy

 

[Kaylee]

Unfortunately no, my vet is not very rabbit savvy. She has some experience but up here not many people bother taking their small animals to the vet's. I know of a really good small animal vet but they are nearly an hour away and without a car of my own it would be next to impossible to bring him there regularly. This one is only 5 minutes from where I work and reasonably competent.

Today they kept up with fluids and the simethicone. I don't think they gave him any metoclopramide or buprenorphine today, I mentioned the debate about whether they helped or not when I dropped him off and I gave her my list of notes from last night to look over but I had to have my sister pick him up this evening because I was tied up at work so I couldn't ask her thoughts on them. But the only things on my bill were sub-q fluids and "administer medications" which I assume was the simethicone I gave them.

They said I can bring him in tomorrow but I don't have to and to give them a call in the morning. He's still pooping small, dark pellets but he hasn't completely stopped which is good. And really all they're doing is keeping an eye on him. I'm trying to decide if I should bring him in tomorrow or not because I do have to work all day again and won't be able to make sure he's drinking but he hates being packed up every morning.

Sorry for rambling. I guess I'm just thinking out loud right now because I wasn't able to get much information about how he was today. I don't feel like I can make a very informed decision when I'm not quite sure what went on.



And a pictureto thank you all for your help.

 

[Kaylee]

UPDATE:

Dutch is doing much better. I decided to have my brother watch him for me on Thursday and he's been doing okay since so I haven't brought him back to the vet. He's eating almost normally, his poops are looking much better, normal size but still very dark. He's loving his greens and eating hay and somepellets on his own.

My only concern is that he still won't drink from his water bottle. I also gave him a crock with plain water and one with some pedialyte but he hasn't touched them. Adding apple juice does nothing to entice him.I figured from being at the vet's he probably wasn't thirsty Thursday and Friday so pushing the greens was getting enough fluids into him but now his urine is back to it's normal color instead of being clear from too much fluid and he still doesn't want to drink. You'd think after3 1/2days he'd want some real water instead of just wet greens. We've been dipping some of his greens in water and some in pedialyte and he's been fine with that.

My brother got him to drink some water yesterday by putting some parsley at the bottom of the water bowl so he had to drink a little to get it which worked but now he's caught on.

 

[dquesnel]

My guys won't drink the apple juice flavoring either. To be honest I have never been successful with that one, but banana flavor and berry has worked.

As long as he is getting water from greens, in all honestly he may not feel he needs the regular water. Of course the more water the better, but in all honesty veggies are so full of water that I wouldn't worry too much. It sounds like you've handled this really well! Also, poops can get darker with veggie consumption- nothing to be too concerned about unless they are REALLY undersized etc.

 

[tonyshuman]

Yeah, when i first got Tony he didn't drink water at all and just got his liquid from greens. As long as he's peeing and pooing (water helps keep the GI going too), it's fine.