Too late, but still curious about what might have happened....

[Nitis3334]

So Firefly passed away last night. He was an 11 month old, male, Flemish Giant. Not neutered, he was at the vet last in May for a check up and the vet said everything looked fine. He would normally be free fed Purina Rabbit Chow, complete formula, and Timothy hay (Kaytee). About a week ago they were out of stock at Tractor supply so I just picked up a smaller bag of food from Walmart called Small World Complete.

So up until last night everything seemed normal. His weight was fine, eating fine, acting normal, no signs of runny nose, sneezing, no diarrhea or constipation, feces was fine. So he was out running around my bedroom for about 2 hours, from about 4pm-6pm. After putting him and his brother away I went to make dinner and take care of the other pets. I didn't go back in till about 10pm. First thing I noticed was Cricket (his brother) ran up to the front of the cage but he was just sitting in his cage at the bottom of the ramp (btw, his cage is a 2 story custom built cage). I tried to get him to come up to me but he wouldn't move. I climbed into the cage and pulled him out and he just seemed totally limp.

I brought him up on the bed and checked him over, there was no feces on his behind (thinking if he was there for a while there would be something), there was no cuts on him or bite marks (thinking him and his brother might have fought), no discharge from mouth, ears, privates, he was just laying on my bed looking around, he seemed paralyzed from the shoulders down. At first I thought he broke his back or something, but from what I've read online normally that only effects the back legs, not the front also.

So I put him in the carrier and went to call the e-vet, when I went back in the room 5 minutes later he was having a seizure, I figured I was best not moving him till it was over, lasted about a minute, but after it was over he was dead. So I'm really at a loss, I don't know what happened to him. I am bringing his brother in on Monday to our normal vet to be checked over.

Their cage is in my bedroom, there really is nothing in there for them to get into. I keep all wires blocked, don't use any chemicals when cleaning in there, nothing new has been brought in there in at least a month. When cleaning their cage I use a vinegar water mixture.

Thank you for any suggestions. I'm hoping when I bring Cricket in maybe I can make some suggestions to the vet as far as what might have been wrong with Firefly and what Cricket should be checked for.

 

[hope4peace]

Im so sorry to hear of your poor buns sudden death. I hope his brother is okay and you get some answers.

 

[Sweetie]

It could have been that Firefly's blood sugar got too low. It won't show up on a test as something wrong until it manifests.

Prince, my male netherland dwarf, passed away on Aug 31st of this year. I found out that his blood sugar was low and his temperature was 6 degrees below normal.

There could be another reason why Firefly passed away, but I am not sure what that would be.

I hope that you find out. I think getting Cricket checked is a good idea, just in case Firefly had anything that was contagious to other rabbits.

 

[jujub793]

My bunny passed away for no apparent reason after having siezure also, while at the vets office because she was limp and not behaving normal... Never did find out what it was? I'm sorry for your loss though

 

[funnybunnymummy]

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Seizures can be caused by any number of things. Your surest bet to find out what happened is to have a necropsy performed. But even then, the results may be inconclusive.

Hope that helps.

Rue

 

[Pipp]

Yes, the seizures are a typical 'end stage' symptom (and so is the drop in temperature and I believe the glucose, I doubt that's what caused the problem with Prince, too). He may have broken his back farther up the spine, possibly due to a fall or a kick from his brother (was his brother neutered?) but with Flemish, it's just as likely he had a heart issue. Some heart problems seem to affect them just when they reach maturity.

So sorry for your loss.


sas :sad:

 

[golfdiva]

Sorry to hear about your loss! I know it can be tough.

Maybe "floppy rabbit syndrome"? Please check out this link:

http://happyhoppers.forumotion.co.uk/t46-what-is-floppy-rabbit-syndrome

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Rabbits are so good at hiding problems. One of our youngest rescues passed and she had absolutely no sign of anything wrong. Found out after that she had a bad heart. So sorry for your loss.

 

[Nitis3334]

Thank you for your suggestions. I'm not sure about the floppy rabbit syndrome, with the seizure it seems to be a bit off. Right now I'm still leaning on maybe he fell or hypoglycemia. The thing is the second floor of the cage is about 2 feet off the ground, they have a ramp to use, in the past I have seen him jump off the ramp before he made it to the bottom, so it is possible. As for blood sugar, I have read a bit about it today and the approximate age that it is common fits, along with the end seizure. I will ask the vet to at least test Cricket for it since it may be genetic. The only thing off about that is the temperature drop, when I picked him up the first thing I noticed was that he was still warm. I just wish Monday would come faster. Cricket seems fine, but I guess you can never know for sure. I let him run around all day, eventually he went back in his cage by himself and went to sleep.

 

[Pipp]

The most common problem in a Flemish would have been the heart attack and that really is how it would have appeared.

What did you read about the blood sugar? I've always thought it's a symptom, not a cause. There is a reason (anorexia, adrenal issue or an 'end stage' occurrence).

Do you have a link?

Thanks.


sas

 

[Sweetie]

When I had Prince tested, the results came back all normal. Low blood sugar is very hard to detect in rabbits, until it manifests itself.

I got Prince when he was sick, so the low blood sugar could have set in and with him eating all the time I guess the blood sugar was stable.

So things can be normal for a long time until they manifest and the rabbit's body cannot fight any condition off.

 

[tonyshuman]

I'm so sorry. The only way you're going to get a definitive answer is having a necropsy done. Bunnies that young can have congenital issues that pop up suddenly, including heart defects or issues with other organs. The symptoms are too general and hypoglycemia doesn't happen in an otherwise healthy bunny, unless it doesn't have access to food for a long time. The seizure is not a useful symptom; nearly all bunnies will seize at the end. That is the body's response to things shutting down.

It sounds to me like he probably had a heart attack or spinal injury. The floppy and unresponsive condition sounds like he was in shock.

 

[Pipp]

Sweetie wrote:

When I had Prince tested, the results came back all normal. Low blood sugar is very hard to detect in rabbits, until it manifests itself.

I got Prince when he was sick, so the low blood sugar could have set in and with him eating all the time I guess the blood sugar was stable.

So things can be normal for a long time until they manifest and the rabbit's body cannot fight any condition off.

I'd still guess it was that the blood sugar problem that came from not eating in the first place, thus being a symptom, not a cause. Something causes it, I didn't think it was an ailment on its own. I'd love to see more info on this. It still may have been what ultimately took his life, but I've never heard of it being the root of the problem, just the symptom that caused the body to shut down. (Maybe adrenal related in Prince's case?)

It's like the process that causes hepatic lipidosis, or 'fatty liver disease', the rabbit's body doesn't have the calories and turns to the fat in the liver (a simplified version).

Or just like 'stasis' is a symptom of something else. The rabbit stops eating or gets a blockage and that causes the intestinal movement that moves the food along to slow down and stop, and that is 'stasis'. The food in the tract ferments, and/or the blockage causes issues. You have to look at what caused the anorexia or blockage that caused the stasis.

Something that needs further research, regardless.

Back to Firefly, almost every rabbit I've had who passed away had seizures first. Just part of the process of the body shutting down. The fact that he was warm to me indicates a heart issue is more likely, I believe a pain response would be a drop in body temperature, although a spinal issue may also be the case.


sas :rip:

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

I'm really sorry about your bunny. I can't imagine losing one like that, especially when it was young still. I had to return my young bunny Charlie to the breeder because she was sick since i got her, and they had some ways to try getting her better, but it pretty much broke my heart to see her go. I'm so so sorry.
R.i.p. sweetie bunny

 

[Nitis3334]

I just assumed that like how humans suffer from diabetes genetically a rabbit can suffer from hypoglycemia genetically also. Every evening I give them a full bowl of food, by the next evening it is generally nearly empty, but it was still at least half full that night, so I do think he stopped eating at some point earlier in the day. Strangely enough there really isn't much information on the internet about general health problems with Flemish Giants.

Anyway, I am going to be redesigning the cage in the coming week to block from jumping off the top of the ramp in case. I probably won't ever know what happened, truthfully I don't have a lot of money to be spending on a necropsy that might not even give an answer. I'll just talk to the vet and see what he says. I'm tempted to call the breeder and ask if there are any general problems like heart disease in her herd but I doubt they would admit to it either way.

Thank you everyone for your input.

 

[tonyshuman]

It is really rare for rabbits to have those same hormonal conditions that we humans have. If an animal has such a hormonal issue, they will probably not make it past a few weeks or months. It does happen sometimes, and sometimes these hormonal imbalances show up later in life, but it's really rare for rabbits. I have never heard of a rabbit with chronic hypoglycemia like you see in people, and although I know it is true that diabetes can occur in rabbits, for a long time it was thought that they could not get it because it is very rare. I have never heard of an actual case of it happening, although I have heard of several dogs and cats with diabetes.

The most common issue we see with Flemish giants and other giant breeds is heart issues. It is generally true that larger individuals of any species will have more strain on their hearts. Many Flemish live long, healthy lives, but they are particularly susceptible to heart attack and that should be paid attention to in their care. There aren't a lot of ailments associated with particular rabbit breeds, like you see in dogs. There are a few exceptions, including heart issues in giant breeds, tooth issues in smooshed-face bunnies, digestive issues in hotots, and seizures in blue-eyed white rabbits.

The bunnies should have hay at all times in addition to their normal food. It doesn't have a lot of calories in it, it's more to help their GI tracts work properly. It is good to talk to the breeder, since it is useful to know if her bunnies died young. She may decide that the parents of your bunnies shouldn't be bred together again, especially if there are other offspring with similar issues. If you'd like, we have a number of Flemish breeders on our forum, and they might have some other ideas if you post in the Rabbitry section. They will probably tell you that heart issues are more common in giant breeds. In my experience here on the forum, many Flemish have had heart issues, and like I said, I've never heard of a bunny with diabetes or hypoglycemia.

 

[Sweetie]

Claire: here is an article I have found about rabbits and hypoglycemia:

http://www.jbc.org/content/182/2/739.full.pdf

Prince was sick with GI upset when I got him. His GI issue cleared up and didn't present itself again. I think that the hypoglycemia set in when he was sick. Before he died, he had convulsions and he died. Hypoglycemia, low blood sugar causes convulsions and then death.

 

[tonyshuman]

Hi Sweetie, that paper has nothing to do with normal rabbit health. The hypoglycemia in those rabbits was induced by injecting drugs. I have looked extensively and have not found any mention of a case of a rabbit with idiopathic hypoglycemia. It is always caused by exposure to a drug, toxin, high doses of insulin, a reduced ability to eat or absorb nutrients, or large-scale organ shutdown, such as in sepsis.

All of these are potential causes of seizure
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/seizure.htm
Our Benjamin seized before he passed away, and his body was shutting down due to cardopulmonary arrest.

Many veterinary journals publish case reports of animals with unusual diseases, in addition to textbooks having sections on more common diseases. There are at least a few good on-line copies of veterinary textbooks, and I have access to many veterinary journals through my own biomedical research. I haven't found anything there about spontaneous hypoglycemia.

If you'd like me to lend my opinions to Prince's case, I am more than willing to in another thread.

 

[Nitis3334]

Well I brought Cricket to the vet today, he looked him over and checked his heart beat and stuff, all seemed fine. So he took some blood to run a few tests but so far all looks good. Well he did have a few fleas I noticed last night so they gave me some Revolution for him. Hopefully should hear back with the blood work in a few days. I do feel bad for Cricket a bit, he seems to be looking for his brother still sometimes. He has been clinging to me a lot more, still thinking of finding him a friend since unfortunately I can't sit with him all day.