To show or not to show?

[Platypusstar]

Hey everyone!

I have a lionhead buckI'm picking uplater today (May 13th)I'm debating on starting show rabbits, his name is Ceaser, hes a broken black. I've been reading on show standards for the breed but I havnt seen his color on the list. the closest i've seen is white point. and i'm not sure how to tell if he's the show type or not. I was wondering if someone who's shown lionheads or knows the breed well enough could tell me what they thought of him. He looks like he already knows how to pose.

I'm not sure if I should show or once I read more on lionheads and breeding. if i should breed him. first and foremost he is a pet. =P i just want to show him off pretty much.

heres a picture of him. hes grown since this picture so i'll post a new one when hes home.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Well, Lionheads are not a recognized breed and won't be anytime soon, so I really have no idea what colors are acceptable for show or what body type/point system they're using to evaluate them these days.

But honestly, if you're looking to breed and show, I would choose a recognized breed. You will get a lot more interest in your rabbits as breeding/show stock this way and you are then eligible to register them, grand them, etc. If you start in with Lionheads, you need to have a huge market for pets, since not a lot of people breed them anymore after failing their presentation at the ARBA Convention last fall.

 

[Platypusstar]

how did they fail if you dont mind me asking? and what exactly is the ARBA? im new to all this lol sorry.

 

[pamnock]

You didn't mention what country you are from, so I'm giving you info from the US. I've judged Lions at a number of shows, including this past weekend.

Currently, Siamese Sable is the only working ARBA standard (torts no longer have a working standard). If you'd like to show a broken Lionhead, you'll need permission from the show secretary and a copy of the standard http://www.arba.net/PDFs/Gibbons%20Lionhead%20Working%20Standard%202008_with%20illustration.pdf

You'll also need a copy of a standard for your variety (you can copy the Netherland Dwarf or another breed broken standard).



Pam

 

[TinysMom]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

If you start in with Lionheads, you need to have a huge market for pets, since not a lot of people breed them anymore after failing their presentation at the ARBA Convention last fall.

Actually - a LOT of people are still breeding lionheads. They only failed their FIRST presentation by Gail Gibbons - and I think one color passed if I remember right.

I want to say that there were something like 700 entries at the lionhead Nationals earlier this month at the Ohio State show.......and they were one of the largest groups or something.

I'd share more about this - but I'm on my way out the door to work.

 

[clevername]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

If you start in with Lionheads, you need to have a huge market for pets, since not a lot of people breed them anymore after failing their presentation at the ARBA Convention last fall.

All varieties failed their first presentation under Gail Gibbons save for the Siamese Sable.

It'll take at least a few years before we see Lionheads accepted as a breed.

 

[gingers_giants]

ARBA is American Rabbit Breeders Association. In order to show a rabbit you have to be a member of ARBA. Unless you are in 4-H then you can show at a 4-H rabbit show without having to be an ARBA member.

New breeds can be developed under a Certificate of Development. If memory serves me correctly the breed has to be shown to a commitee and they have to vote on it (please someone jump in and give more detail!! I know I am forgetting a great deal of detailhaha) Something about if it doesnt pass as a new breed or even new breed color then everything goes back to square one.

 

[Jenson]

That's one mighty cute little Lionhead! :biggrin2:

I think if you want to show at the moment you might be better off looking into a well established breed from a recommended breeder who can set you up with some nice rabbits. You could also look for "pet" classes at shows to show your Lionhead in where they judge on presentation, health, temperament etc. but I'm not sure how common these classes are in the US. I know they are very few and far between in the UK, which is a shame really because it might get more people involved!

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

gingers_giants wrote:

ARBA is American Rabbit Breeders Association. In order to show a rabbit you have to be a member of ARBA. Unless you are in 4-H then you can show at a 4-H rabbit show without having to be an ARBA member.

Uhm no you don't have to be a member to show any ARBA shows. I am in 4-H, and I show at both 4-H and ARBA shows (in both Youth and Open divisions). Just thought I'd make that clear


Emily

 

[gingers_giants]

Well maybe thats how they do things where you live, but the last time I checked to show open you have to be a member of ARBA. Excuse me for living and posting.



Every time I post someone has something smart to say. I now see why I dont post on here and only PM people. Thats okay..Ill just go back to reading topics and PMing others. Thanks though.

 

[RAL Rabbitry]

You don't have to be a member of the ARBA to show in open or youth. You do have to be a member of the ARBA to register your rabbits, get GC certificatesand show at the ARBA convention.

 

[Celestial Wind]

gingers_giants wrote:

to show open you have to be a member of ARBA. Excuse me for living and posting.

Hi, I have been a member with ARBA for 2 years now but I have been showing rabbits now for about 4 years and the first two years I was showing in Open classes I was not a member of ARBA and I showed in several diffrent states.



I am sorry you are feeling like you are being attacked but we do want to give out the correct information to other members.



Ow and Platypusstar your Lionhead baby is very cute... Thow she is broken she may not have the required 10% color or a full butterfly but hey I have shown bunnies that I knew would be DQ for something...I really just wanted to get a judges opinion on the rabbit. I'd say wait till she makes weight and show her to get the judges opinion and remember talk to as many Lionhead breeders as you can!!! Most bunny people LOVE to talk bunny Including ME!!!

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

TinysMom wrote:

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

If you start in with Lionheads, you need to have a huge market for pets, since not a lot of people breed them anymore after failing their presentation at the ARBA Convention last fall.

Actually - a LOT of people are still breeding lionheads. They only failed their FIRST presentation by Gail Gibbons - and I think one color passed if I remember right.

This is incorrect.

The first presentation was by Arden Wetzel, who held the first COD. He presented in '04 with 5 colors (I believe Chestnut, Tort, Sia Sable, Sable Point, and REW?). All 5 colors failed.

He tried again the next year and was successful in Tort, which meant that it would be the only breed to progress at the time. At this time, LOTS of breeders jumped on the bandwagon and started breeding Lionheads, thinking that they would go through and pass the whole way. However, the presentations failed again in '06 and '07. After that happened, a lot of breeders sold out because now the Lionheads have to start all over with a new COD and many more years of perfecting the breed. A lot of people just don't want to mess with something that has so far to go until they're recognized again.

After Wetzel, the COD was THEN given to Gail Gibbons. She began the process all over again and made her first presentation in 2008. The Siamese Sable passed.

So, at this point in time, it's looking like it will be a very long time before Lionheads would pass, if ever. It's a shame because they're a cute breed. But I wouldn't suggest the breed to those who are new to showing/breeding.

 

[pamnock]

Part of the challenge of getting a breed passed is that the breed/variety has to be presented at 3 ARBA conventions and pass all three showings. This is made even more difficult because some of the original rabbits have to be brought back and have often developed DQ's since the first time they were shown including losing their manes.

Velveteen Lops have been struggling with trying to get passed for a number of years.

If memory serves me right, broken Netherland Dwarfs had been in the works for over 15 years before they were finally passed!

One of the unique aspects of the Lions is that they are so very popular, even though they are not an accepted breed.

Pam

 

[pamnock]

gingers_giants wrote:

Well maybe thats how they do things where you live, but the last time I checked to show open you have to be a member of ARBA. Excuse me for living and posting.



Every time I post someone has something smart to say. I now see why I dont post on here and only PM people. Thats okay..Ill just go back to reading topics and PMing others. Thanks though.

No one was being a "smart" with you or disrespectful in any way- they were just correcting the information. You only have to be an ARBA member to show at the National ARBA Conventions - not at any of the ARBA sanctioned shows.

Pam

 

[TinysMom]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

TinysMom wrote:

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

If you start in with Lionheads, you need to have a huge market for pets, since not a lot of people breed them anymore after failing their presentation at the ARBA Convention last fall.

Actually - a LOT of people are still breeding lionheads. They only failed their FIRST presentation by Gail Gibbons - and I think one color passed if I remember right.

This is incorrect.

The first presentation was by Arden Wetzel, who held the first COD. He presented in '04 with 5 colors (I believe Chestnut, Tort, Sia Sable, Sable Point, and REW?). All 5 colors failed.

He tried again the next year and was successful in Tort, which meant that it would be the only breed to progress at the time. At this time, LOTS of breeders jumped on the bandwagon and started breeding Lionheads, thinking that they would go through and pass the whole way. However, the presentations failed again in '06 and '07. After that happened, a lot of breeders sold out because now the Lionheads have to start all over with a new COD and many more years of perfecting the breed. A lot of people just don't want to mess with something that has so far to go until they're recognized again.

After Wetzel, the COD was THEN given to Gail Gibbons. She began the process all over again and made her first presentation in 2008. The Siamese Sable passed.

So, at this point in time, it's looking like it will be a very long time before Lionheads would pass, if ever. It's a shame because they're a cute breed. But I wouldn't suggest the breed to those who are new to showing/breeding.

I did know about Arden Wetzel's presentations - I was talking about last fall which was when they failed their FIRST presentation by Gail Gibbons - since that was what you mentioned - their presentation last fall.

If I remember right - Gail passed one color...which means that lionheads COULD be a breed in two more years if she passes that color the next two years in a row.

I think at this time there are something like 6 or 7 COD holders lined up for presentation behind Gail - each with 5 colors on their CODs. If she gets the lionheads through - they will drop down to two colors each and try to get them passed - without having to wait for the person ahead of them.

So since this is 2009...if Gail passes the siamese sable in 2009 and in 2010...then we're looking at about 17 or 18 months before lionheads become an official breed with ARBA.

That's really not all that long when you think about it.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Like Pam mentioned, some of the original rabbits have to be brought back with each showing. By that time, many have developed DQ's. Lionheads are a pretty inconsistant breed from what I've seen and IMO, it will take many more than three years to get them passed. My opinion doesn't mean that it will definitely happen that way, but Lionheads are still a COMPLETELY new breed to the ARBA. As Pam also said, it took many, many years to even get broken ND's to pass, and they were already an established breed!

This is just not a breed I would suggest to people who are new in the show and breeding world. An established breed is more rewarding to work with at this time, since hard work and dedication can be paid of with legs and GC's. Whereas, Lionheads are still "in the works", and unless you are a COD holder, you're ultimately showing rabbits in a mixed breed class. Again, JMPO.

 

[pamnock]

Here's a little history on the presentations:

Arden Wetzel2004 - failed all 5 colors presented

Arden 2005 - torts passed

Arden 2006 failed, 2007 failed. torts dropped

Gail Gibbons 2008 - siamese sable passed

Currently, the simaese sable is the only variety with a working standard and the only variety that show secretaries must allow to be shown. Shows may refuse all other varieties.



Pam

 

[gingers_giants]

Then how come every time i get a show catalog it says something about having to be an ARBA member to show?

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

gingers_giants wrote:

Well maybe thats how they do things where you live, but the last time I checked to show open you have to be a member of ARBA. Excuse me for living and posting.



Every time I post someone has something smart to say. I now see why I dont post on here and only PM people. Thats okay..Ill just go back to reading topics and PMing others. Thanks though.

I don't think Emily was purposely trying to be rude. Although, I would have left the statement of, "Just thought I'd make that clear" out. There is no reason to say that on Emily's part but I am sure she didn't mean anything rude by it.

You don't have to be a member of the ARBA to show in any Open or Youth show sanctioned except the ARBA Convention. The only thing is that the legs of grand champion are useless until you become a member.

I am the secretary for 2 rabbit clubs and we get people all the time who are not members. We welcome them to show and tell them how wonderful the ARBA is.



Sharon