The lives of Kiwi & Papaya!

[Mariah]

Kiwi is sad this evening. Papaya is just sitting with her keeping her company. What a good little brother he is being tonight.

 

[JBun]

Poor Kiwi At least now she has a buddy to keep her company when she's not feeling well.

 

[Mariah]

I just don't understand. Well, I do understand what kiwi is going through because I went through it when we both lost Citrus. I gues the difference is I know where he went. She dosent. I mean, I'm sure she knew he was sick or something wasent right. I really hope Papaya can help her. It's like I hold my breath every morning when I wake up and come home from work, not knowing if she's going to eat for me and have poops in her litter box. She makes me so stressed!

I live with my boyfriend and he leaves for work at 2 pm (ive been at work since 8am- dont get home till 7pm) so I always ask him if she has pooped and what she's doing etc. I also ask about Papaya of course cause I don't want him following her lead and deciding to be depressed too. I don't know what he would become depressed about though!

Both my buns have "life in London" they are spoiled! Ahh! Bunnies, well Kiwi stresses me out! But I love them and I don't know what I would so without them!

 

[qtipthebun]

They are so unbearably cute. I love those toys you got them.

 

[JBun]

Do you think she's depressed or could she just not be feeling well, like upset tummy? Do her poops look normal?

 

[Mariah]

I think she's depressed which causes stress which leads to an upset tummy. She didn't poop a lot for me overnight but her poops look normal sized this morning. She is eating her breakfast her normal way- so she eats some, goes and lays down, then gets up and eats more. She's not done them yet.

Ugh, I have a 10.5 shift today... I'm going to be worried all day long...

I already have her on meds. I don't know what else I can be doing for her right now.

On a positive note, Papaya is in happy spirits this morning!

 

[JBun]

I'm just wondering if it might be the other way around. That maybe something she's eating is upsetting her stomach, and because she's feeling sick, she gets all quite. It just seems strange that she would be perfectly fine and happy with Papaya and then get all down again. It doesn't seem right to have to have her on medication so frequently. Could you maybe experiment with her diet and see if that makes a difference in her mood.

 

[Mariah]

I can definetly experiment with her food. I just don't know what to experiment with.

This is what she currently gets:

1/3 cup of Martins Adult pellets AM and PM
Unlimited Timothy hay
Unlimited water
A sprinkle of alphfa hay just in the AM (only because I'm worried she won't eat- I know this is not great for her...)
1/4 of a papaya tablet in the PM
About a spoonful of pineapple juice in the PM

I've tried her on the Oxbow pellets and she did not like them. I've also had her on another brand of Timothy pellets but she didn't like those ones ether. The martins pellets are a round pellet whereas the other pellets I've had her on where the long kind.

I'm welcome to any suggestions please!

I just got an update from my boyfriend, he says kiwi is ok and there is poop In her litter box.

 

[JBun]

So is she shedding right now? Is that why you give her the pineapple juice and papaya tablet each day? Also, are the poops the normal size and shape?

Well, I can just tell you my experience with my rabbits and you can decide what you think. So in May my little Dash died from GI stasis. I absolutely loved this rabbit. She was just so sweet and friendly, and I was heartbroken. I had started researching GI stasis, but it was too late. She had a really severe case and died the day after I took her to the vet. Well, in my effort to research, I came to realize i missed all the warning signs of stasis and that basically my mistakes ended up killing her. I was only giving her something as simple as a half a grape or half a baby carrot each day as a treat. That was enough to make her really sick. Then about 2 months later I got a new rabbit and he had a really hard time adjusting to the change of a new home, and he got stasis from the stress. He was getting his same kind of food so I knew it wasn't from that. But this time I knew what to look for and knew what to do, so I also caught it earlier. He came out of it, but then later I tried to switch him back to his old pellets and he got sick again. So I did all the syringe feeding, etc. He got better and was doing ok, but I wanted him on a better pellet, and,yes, he got stasis again. So after all this I tried putting him back on his pellets that he was doing ok on, but now that was making him sick too, and even harder to deal with is he absolutely won't eat hay. He'll nibble on a piece here and there but if I tried to make him eat more hay, and I wouldn't give him pellets, he just wouldn't eat. So I was kind of in a dilemma. He couldn't have any pellets and he wouldn't eat hay. I was syringing critical care and giving leafy veggies, but I had to find something he would eat on his own. So I found some hay pellets that are just compressed pelleted hay without any additives. So at the end of all those stasis bouts, his poop was coming out extra small and extra large. That's what had been happening with Dash before she stopped eating and pooping, before she died. So I knew his stomach was still having issues. So I did probiotic paste with him and his poop is almost back to normal now.

So just with all these problems with stasis, I've probably become hyper vigilant about things that contribute to it. The sweetest treat any of my rabbits get is a small baby carrot, and those for only the rabbits that have never had any health problems. For my stasis bun, he gets green leafy veggies and his hay pellets. I check everyones poop everyday. I'm almost a little paranoid about stasis now.

So with Kiwi having had tummy trouble in the past, I personally would be worried about giving her anything with sugar in it, because that's how I am with my buns now. IF any of my buns were to become less active and decrease eating, I would be giving simethicone and metacam, then I would decrease pellets to increase their hay consumption, give only green leafy veggies, and they would get nothing else with sugar, carbs or grains. So I just base that course on the things that I've learned from my rabbits with stasis. Even the simethicone and metacam make me a little nervous using cause they have sugar in them, but if gas is the problem then they can help. I also will use a probiotic.

I would be a little worried about using papaya tablets and the pineapple juice, just because of all the sugar my buns would be getting. I know some people swear by these things working, but with my bun now, because of his prior tummy trouble, I would never use them. With shedding issues, I'm more for decreasing pellets to increase hay consumption. I would be going for a hay with lots of thick stems in it. It wouldn't have much nutrition, but it would have a ton of fiber, and that's what I feel they need when the gut is slowing down. I would also give apple brances and willow branches everyday, for the extra fiber. And also leafy greens cause they tend to soften things up and move things through the gut instead of slowing it down.

With it being your bun, you're most familiar with her, and can figure out what you think is going to help her most. I just wanted to share my own personal experience with stasis in case that might be part of what Kiwi's issue is, and maybe something I said might help with her. It's hard to know if her problem is emotional or physical. If you don't feel the pineapple and papaya are critical, you could try cutting those out. And if you think she'll eat more hay by decreasing her pellets a little, you could try that and see if either of those things will make a difference in her mood. These are just ideas. Do what you think will be best for her.

Wow, sorry this is so long.

 

[JBun]

By the way, how much does Kiwi weigh? Generally, the feeding guidelines for a 5 lb rabbit, is 1/4-1/2 cup pellets per day. And it looks like your feeding her 2/3 cup a day, is that right?

 

[Mariah]

Hi Jbun, thank you SO much for posting what you did. I am very sorry to hear about your little Dash As you know, my little dude Citrus, passed on in April, and I too was absolutely heartbroken by his loss. He didn't die of stasis, he got an abscess in his mouth and we think he went septic. I did absolutely everything for him but it was his time unfortuntely.

With kiwi, you do bring valid points that I never thought of. She is not shedding anymore. She was for the past couple of months. Now she just has the odd hair tuff I pull out every night. I started her on the pineapple and papaya because I didn't know what else to do for her, so I thought that it may help. It's not as you can see, so I will stop the pineapple and papaya tonight. The other reason why I started her on it was because she was grooming Papaya like crazy and as you can tell by the pictures, he's a furry monster! I did see hair in her poops last week which is also what prompted the pineapple and papaya.

I also took your suggestion and decreased her pellets by half tonight. So instead of getting 1/3 cup, she is getting 1/6 cup AM and PM so 1/3 total pellets for the day. Does that seem right? She weighs about 3-4 pounds.

Her poop "was" normal size. Tonight I noticed that she had some tiny poops as well which I do know is an indication of stasis... She's not a great hay eater... She has unlimited Timothy hay by oxbow. I have had her on the kaytee Timothy hay as well for a long time but she decided she didn't like it anymore which prompted the switch to oxbow. I've tried her on the grass oxbow hay as well, which she also did not like.

When you say "compressed hay pellets" where can you get those? Are you talking about the blocks of hay? If so, I can pick some up at the pet store tomorrow.

I'm also going to get her the simethcone tomorrow as well. I've never had her on that before but was taking to my vet and she said yes bunnies can have that.

Kiwi did come out for a brief run in the living room tonight so I guess that's positive...

Ill also have to get her some lettuce tomorrow. I have carrots on hand but because you said they are high in sugar I don't want to give her one in case it's the extra sugar that's causing her tummy ache.

Again, thank you so much for writing what you did. I really appricate it as I'm at a loss as what else I can do for my sweet little kiwi.

Anything else you can think of, please do post it!

Edited to say: I also clean both their litter boxes everyday. Sometimes I do it twice. By cleaning I mean, their whole litter box gets dumped and fresh shavings are added everyday.

 

[JBun]

It's really hard when we get so attached to our buns and then we lose them. I almost wanted to just call it quits with rabbits, but I couldn't cause I love them too much.

Oh, Kiwi is not going to be happy about no treats It's for her own good though poor girl. Yeah, 1/3 cup sounds more in line for her weight. Now that she'll be getting less pellets, she should pick up on the hay eating. You'll probably want to keep an eye on it though, and make sure that she does increase her hay consumption. It makes it really hard when our buns decide to be picky about their hay. That was the problem with Zeus. I think he would have rather starved to death with a pile of hay in front of him, then go without his lovely pellets. Getting these hay pellets was kind of a last ditch effort on my part. It was the last thing I could think of that he might eat, and luckily he did... These hay pellets aren't the cubes. They are like rabbit pellets but just a bit bigger size. I get them at a feed store, where I also get bales of timothy hay, and it's sold as a horse feed. It's actually a mix of half timothy and half alfalfa. This company also has just straight timothy but I would have to probably special order it. This only has 15% protein so I figured it would be fine, and it was really my only option at the time. It would actually be alot better if he would eat hay cause there is better fiber in hay than the pellets. He will nibble on a little hay but that's all. Maybe stick with trying the hay and see if she'll start eating more now that her pellets are reduced. You could try the hay blocks though, it wouldn't hurt anything.

Zeus' poops are the same as Kiwi's. He has a lot of normal ones now, but there are still some small ones in there. I ran out of his probiotic that seemed to have been helping his poops get more back to normal. I'm trying to order this special rabbit probiotic paste that's supposed to be really good, through my vet, but it's been on back order. It's called Proviable RB. I wanted to see if it would help him, but I'm still waiting for it, so I may just have to get some more of the other stuff in the mean time. The good thing is that he absolutely loves it. He practically tries to climb out of his cage to get to it.

So with the simethicone, if Zeus has stopped pooping, or hardly is, and doesn't seem interested in eating, and is sitting in the back of his cage not wanting to move around much and seems uncomfortable, that's when I know I need to do something to help him. I'll start with simethicone and if there's no change in an hour, I'll give him another dose and give him metacam, and then an hour later I'll give another dose of simethicone. After that if he's not eating I'll start syringe feeding critical care and start probiotics. So that's my 'routine' with the simethicone. I'm still kind of cautious about using it just because of the sugar, but when he's stopped eating, I feel that it is necessary. I sure have learned a lot about stasis since I had this guy.

Yeah, Zeus hasn't had one carrot since I've had him. He gets leafy greens for his treats, and the probiotics - his fav. Have you given lettuce to Kiwi before? If not just make sure you do the gradual intro to make sure she's ok with it? And you know about no iceburg, right? I just ask cause I've found alot of times people don't know some of these bunny basics. My buns will get cilantro and green leaf, and sometimes a little parsley. There's other leafy greens, but those are the basics for my buns.

I clean out Zeus' litter box every day too, just so I can be sure he's pooping normally. My other buns I'm not as worried about, but I check to make sure everyone is doing ok. It's kind of habit with me now after Zeus' problems.

So you get the small bags of hay? I don't know if you have horse feed stores around where you are, but if you do, sometimes they will carry bales of timothy hay that you can buy. They're usually around 50 lb. and maybe $10-15, so alot cheaper than the little bags.

I was reading another topic, I think in the infirmary, and someone mentioned that buns can become dependant on gut motility drugs. Have you ever heard that?

 

[Mariah]

Hi again

Ok, where to begin!

I got Kiwi the simethicone today. I haven't given her any yet as I've already noticed a difference in her mood by decreasing her pellets last night and this morning She came out to play with Papaya before I left for work this morning. I'm home now, and she came back out with Papaya again! She also did eat more hay then she normally does so I think this is a positive start!

What is your dose for simethcone? My vet told me I can give her 0.25mls up to 4 times a day. I don't want to over react even though I know I'm not, but I was going to wait a little bit before giving her the simethicone today as she's playing right now.

What probiotic do you have Zeus on now? I know you said your trying to get the Provible RB. I was looking through my book we order from at work and I didn't see that name. I want to get her a probiotic ASAP. But I don't know what the options are for bunnies.

Kiwi has had lettuce before- just the romaine kind. I know to never give iceberg! I didn't get any for her today because I don't give her lettuce frequently enough and I don't want to add any extra things to her diet until I see if it was the pellets that are causing the stomach upset. I think that makes sense?

I also bought the hay cubes. Ill give her one tonight and see what she thinks of that.

I know that rabbits can become depending on gi motility drugs ... But I'm scared to stop the cisapride... Maybe I should stop that tonight...?

My feed mill is right around the corner from me. It's actually where I get my horse supplies from. I've seen their hay and I'm not thrilled with the quality of it. I suppose it's ok but I do get a discount at my work so I just order their hay in there every week.

I'm sitting on the ground right now writing this and Papaya is running around like a crazy little dude and kiwis looking at him like he's crazy

 

[JBun]

That's great that she's feeling well and eating more hay I would hold off on the simethicone. I only give it to my buns if they are obviously not feeling well. When they stop eating and especially if the pooping has stopped or lessened dramatically, and if they're not moving around and seem to be feeling unwell. The article I read on dosing said to give 1-2cc per hour for 3 hours, then 1cc every 3-8 hours. I went a little less than 1cc with Zeus because he's just 3 lbs.
Here's the article:
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

And like I've mentioned, I try to avoid giving it because of the sugar in it. I'll only give it if they exihibit the above behavior, and seem unwell to me. With Kiwi seeming to feel good today, it doesn't seem like simethicone is needed. It would be more when she's in one of her 'depressed' moods, won't eat, won't come out of her cage, and especially if she's not pooping. And sometimes you can tell that they feel uncomfortable by the way they're shifting their body around while they're hunkered up in a corner refusing everything. So I would hold off on the simethicone, unless she actually seems unwell to you. No need to medicate needlessly.

You may want to continue with the gut motility meds until you've had a few days of continued good health. Then maybe you could just slowly start decreasing the amount, and just kind of wean her off of them so if she is somewhat dependant on them, her body can just gradually get used to working on it's own again. Then you can just keep an eye on how she responds to getting a little less. But you definitely don't just want to pull her off of them until she seems to be doing better.

The probiotic I've been using is Probios/Probiocin pet gel. I've been getting it from my vet just cause the same kind that I got at the feed store seemed to upset my rabbits stomach for some reason. Same exact stuff, just had gone bad or something. So I stuck with getting it from my vet. Some people use Bene-bac, but I haven't used it myself.
Here's the site for the stuff that I want to get:
http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/vet/products/Proviable-rb.aspx

You may want to hold off on trying the probiotic just to give cutting out sugars,grains, and reducing pellets a chance, and to see if cutting out these things solves the issues that Kiwi has been having. I only started Zeus back on probiotics because after a week or so, his poop wasn't going back to normal. So maybe after a week or two of this change in diet and eating more hay, if Kiwi's poop doesn't get back to all being normal, and if she is still having some really small ones too, then maybe try giving her the probiotic to see if it helps.

Yeah, probably good to hold off on the lettuce for a few days just to be sure about the effects of the decreased pellets.

Sometimes the feed stores hay can be kind of crappy. That's nice to be able to get a discount on the bagged stuff.

Lol, Papaya is such a funny boy. I can just see Kiwi watching her crazy brother and wondering what the heck his problem is.

 

[Mariah]

Jbun, I can't thank you enough for all the help you have been! I took a nap this afternoon, and I just woke up to kiwi in her litter box eating hay. I decreased both buns pellets and I've noticed they are both consuming more hay! Yay!

I really hope the pellets was her issue! Wouldn't that be amazing if this problem that kiwi is having was solved??!!

 

[Mariah]

Me again, I was in a rush to write my last post so I don't actually comment on everything!

Ok, I'm going to search for the probiotic now that I know what the names are but will hold off giving it to her for now. Like I said earlier, I've already noticed an improvement on kiwis attitude. She layed for a little bit after eating her dinner of pellets but she's up and playing now

Now regarding the simethicone- it is safe to give, this I know, however; if I gave it to her tonight and she wasent gassy, would that cause an issue?

I don't know if I can give the cisapride and simethicone together (hours apart). Do you or anyone else know the anwser to this?

Here is a pic I just took of kiwi & papaya. Notice there are two toys but they both choose to play with the same one? Silly bun buns Also, in the background is a cat bed that I just bought today for them! It was on sale for $10 so I thought, why not?

 

[JBun]

Lol, that's so like children to want to have the others toy

That would be great if this solves the problems with Kiwi. It's amazing how some buns have such sensitive tummies that you really have to watch their diet, and other buns can eat just about anything and it doesn't faze them. I really hope this was the answer you were needing. I'm sure it would be a big relief for you not to always have to worry about your bun.

She should be fine if you already gave her the simethicone. I just don't like to risk giving my buns extra sugars if it isn't absolutely necessary. With Kiwi already having digestive issues, you really don't want to take the chance of additional sugars messing up her digestion and causing problems again. Just use the simethicone when she's stopped eating and you can tell there's something wrong. That's when I figure the benifits outweigh the risks of using it.

I can't say for sure about the cisapride and simethicone, but I haven't heard anything about it being a problem. It seems to me that they would need to be used together at times because of being both used for GI issues.

Those two are just so cute I like the bed too. I've been thinking about getting one for my bun.

Ok, I'm going to attempt to post a pic of Zeus coming after his probiotic 'treat'.

 

[Mariah]

Zeus is a little sweetie! Adorable! How old is he? Kiwi is just like too when I give her metacam or cisapride. She just licks it up eagerly from the syringe. She also eats the critical care by herself as well. She thinks they are all tasty treats!

I have not given her the simethicone. I was just wondering if I did if it could cause a stomach issue if nothing was wrong. I will hold off on it for now seeing as she was happy and bright this evening.

I'm watching them both carefully with the bed because they both chew absolutely everything and I don't want them tearing the bed apart and eating it... I don't need anymore tummy troubles! I think I'll cover it over with fleece like I have in their x pens. I was told that if they eat that it's easier to digest because it has no fibers in it? They have been good as not eating the fleece. I noticed the odd little chew mark, here and there but nothing huge.

I usually give them each a tiny treat of pellets to put them to bed at night... Poor girl is standing on her hind legs begging for some... I must be strong and not give her any tonight...

 

[JBun]

A few of my rabbits are big chewers too. I gave Baby a nice carpet to lay on ( low pile carpet), she chewed it up. I gave her a nice fleece to lay on, she chewed it up. So right now she has a smooth floor, a small blankie (that she chews of course), her litter box (chews that too), and a cardboard box to shred. Zeus, who is 1 1/2 by the way, is a model rabbit. He has a nice carpet, that he doesn't chew, a blankie that he'll dig at, but doesn't chew, he has lovely litter box habits, with only a few stray poops. He didn't start out that way though. He was horrible, was peeing and pooping everywhere. He was skittish, not used to being handled, didn't want me petting him, then..... he got sick and that completely changed him cause I had to hand feed him constantly. Plus when they are really sick, rabbits seem to get more docile and cooperative. So now he absolutely loves his nose rubs and is a big sweetheart.

Awww, no pellets tonight the poor babies. You know if you really want to as a goodnight treat, you could probably give them a pinch of pellets at bedtime and it wouldn't really increase their pellet amounts, or you could refill their hay at bedtime instead and see if they like that. You could also split up their night time feeding so that you are giving part of it at dinner time and the other part at bedtime. Then you won't have to turn down your poor begging bunnies

 

[agnesthelion]

Well I sure hope the tummy troubles are solved for poor Kiwi! It at least seems like you've gotten some great information and maybe have a hold on the process to use going forward. What a long road this has been for you and your adorable buns.
Love the pictures of them playing with the same toy. So typical!!
Jenny, I think I just noticed your name on your avatar! haha, I've just been calling you Jbun unless I missed your name before? anyway, zeus is adorable and you gave alot of help to Mariah. It seems like the experience with your Dash (so sorry for his loss by the way) although was so sad has allowed you to help someone else