The dreaded pasteurella...help?

[emilyandpetrie]

First off, thank you for reading this post. All help is greatly appreciated.

Okay, so my rabbit Petrie was diagnosed with pasteurella two months ago. His symptoms included A LOT of sneezing and nasal discharge and scabs. He was given an antibiotic and topical drops. We're on the second round and I'm still patiently waiting for this to subside. Honestly I have seen improvements in his overall health and he seems more eager to eat, but the sneezing hasn't improved.

My main concern is that he still has thick scabs on his nose. I have asked the vet and she said I should rip them off every day. I was doing that but his nose would become swollen and more irritated, so I stopped. Now I only pull them off when it hinders his ability to breathe. The scabs are not full of puss like they were before. They appear to be a mixture of bedding and discharge.

Is there anyway that I can keep these scabs from building up? Would removing bedding from his cage help? He is litter trained so I was thinking removing bedding from outside the pan would keep that from sticking to his nose. Is there anything else I can do? It seems like no matter how much I clean his nose, the scabs always appear! Help?



Additional Info:

Petrie is a dutch rabbit. He is litter trained and spends time in his cage when I am at school. When I am home he roams around my bed-room supervised. (Yes, I make sure all cords are up! Lol)
His diet consist of half a cup of pellets, a cup of greens (mostly cilantro, parsley, and kale), apples and carrots twice a week, and an unlimited supply to timothy hay. He drinks about 8oz of water a day. I have him on vitamins that you drop into his water, also. The vet approved of these.
Anything else that would be helpful to know, just ask! Thanks!

 

[Kipcha]

So is it actually scabs, or is it dried and hardened mucus? And you said they were at one point full of pus? Are you sure it wasn't mucus? Rabbit pus is like toothpaste, extremely thick.

What bedding is he on? If it is shavings, I would recommend removing them all ASAP. The dust will only further irritate his respiratory tract and make the problem worse. He should have pelleted bedding (Yesterdays News or Wood pellets) and blankets on his floor if he does not chew.

What antibiotics were you given? What vitamins are added to the water? From what I have seen, the vitamins in the water are unnecessary and they break down so fast that the rabbit does not get them. It can also change the taste and discourage the rabbit from drinking.

Were penicillin injections discussed with you? Have you had a second opinion? I would probably be looking for one, especially if your vet approved the drops in the water. I've never heard of a good vet doing that.

 

[emilyandpetrie]

Right now it seems like it is scabs. When I first took him to the vet it was filled with what she told me was pus. However, it was not thick so maybe it was mucus? Not sure. As of this point, it is just scabs on his nose. I think theyre from the dust of the bedding.

His bedding is arm and hammer. Its like a recycled paper. I have noticed it was dusty but its what I was directed to get when I first bought him. (Id never owned a bunny before and relied on pet stores to help. Probably bad on my part!) Right now his cage is just a starter cage but Ive been asking my mom to purchase NIC cubes to make a multi level one from that. Ill definitely switch to pellet bedding and use blankets.

He is on Baytril. The vitamins were drops I bought from the pet store.

We did Baytril injections for the first 5 days and now it is oral.


Where I live we do not have many vets who see "exotics" like rabbits so I havent had a second opinion. However, Ill talk to my mom about going to the other bunny vet. Thanks.

 

[JBun]

I agree to take away the bedding and just put it in the litter box. Pine pellets or newspaper pellets would be the least dusty. And you can use fleece fabric to put on the cage bottom instead of the bedding, as fleece is safer than fabric with threads, if your rabbit decides to chew on it.

Did the vet do a culture and sensitivity? That will help determine the bacteria causing the problem and which antibiotics would be the most effective against it. It's not always the pasteurella bacteria that causes this to happen.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/culture.html
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sneezing.html

If you want to look for a different vet, try looking on these lists, and also you can try online searches for exotics vets in your area. You want an exotics vet, not just a cat and dog vet that also takes rabbits.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f28/finding-vet-13366/
http://www.rabbit.org/vets/vets.html

 

[emilyandpetrie]

Okay.

No a culture was not done.

I will certainly check those list!

 

[Maureen Las]

Pasteurella is a "catch all term" that includes a number of bacterial infections that cause an upper respiratory infection in a rabbit. A culture and sensitivity of the exudate will certainly help in determining which antibiotics are most likely to be effective.
Baytril , in my experience , is not the drug of choice in treating a difficult well-established infection. Baytril has been over used by the veterinary community and most bacteria have developed an immunity to it. Any time I have treated a rabbit with oral baytril the infection would appear to cease for a brief time only to come back more virulent than before.
I learned from a wild-life rehabber (previous RO moderator) that many vets are afraid to experiment with stronger drugs because they fear that they will disturb the delicate GI tract of the rabbit.
I have been very successful with treating my rabbits with injectable bicillin which is a combo of penicillin procaine G and benzathine penicillin . The Procaine G is fast acting and the benzathine is slower acting. This is the same drug used by Marcy Moore in her article detailing the eradication of abscesses in rabbits.
Injectable bicillin can even be combined with another drug like oral azithromycin (Zithromax).
Another great oral drug is chloramphenical.
Many years back I had a mini-lop who was treated repeatedly with baytril by a vet who would not prescribe something more appropriate. I was able to get Bicillin at a farm store and treat her myself ( at this point in time my new vet uses bicillin) ; the treatment was a complete success.
I feel that you need to find a very rabbit knowledgeable vet who has more experience treating difficult infections.
Look for your state in our Rabbit Saavy vet area of RO. Read as much as you can and ask a lot of questions. Good Luck!

 

[emilyandpetrie]

I have heard that about baytril. I asked the vet about it and she said anything stronger would upset his GI tract. I will certainly look for a new, more rabbit savvy vet. Thank you very much!

 

[Maureen Las]

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

 

[tonyshuman]

I am also a bit concerned that this is not a URI but instead syphilis (don't worry, you can't catch it from your rabbit). Rabbit syphilis has a lot of mucus and crustiness on the nose. There are sometimes crusts on the nose with a respiratory infection but usually they would go away as soon as the mucus stops being produced in large amounts.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Eye_diseases/Tof_case/Tof_en.htm

There is one treatment for genuine rabbit syphilis--bicillin (well, any penicillin, but bicillin is the easiest to give). It also will help for a URI. I would ask a new vet if they think it could be syphilis instead of a URI. They may take some swabs and look under the microscope for a characteristic bacteria shape. If that indicates it's a URI, then they can do the culture and sensitivity test.

 

[emilyandpetrie]

Can syphilis only appear in the nose and eyes? He doesn't seem to have crust around his genitals. He does have one eye that is weaping. The old vet said it was just part of the pasteurella. I will ask the new vet when we go for an appointment.

 

[missyscove]

Where are you located (country, state, etc.?)

I'm currently dealing with "snuffles" in both of my rabbits and although we were initially treating with Baytril as though it was pasteurella, after a culture and sensitivity test we learned not only that there wasn't any pasteurella, but that what was there was resistant to the baytril. They both ended up on a much cheaper and easier to administer (because it came formulated with raspberry flavoring) doxycycline regimen. In my case, the cost of the culture and sensitivity (~$100/rabbit) has been paid for my the cheaper and more effective antibiotics. I'd definitely recommend a culture for your bun.
If there's a lot of inflammation, an NSAID like metacam might be of use. We also changed out the bedding in my cage and I started using a humidifier and a nebulizer with saline with Cricket. Here's a youtube video of her and her nebulizer.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V29dG5fU5J4[/ame]

 

[Maureen Las]

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Bacterial/Syph_gen.html


Syphilis can appear only on face. Read Medi-rabbit article esp. noting characteristics of lesions. It is would far less diffiicult to give an opinion if we had pics
Honestly a rabbit with a lowered immune system could have both a URI and syphilis concurrently.

 

[tonyshuman]

It really would be best to have a culture and sensitivity test done because that will pinpoint the bacteria and the appropriate treatment, whether it is a URI or syphilis.

 

[emilyandpetrie]

UPDATE:
Sorry this took so long to post, but I thought Id inform you on what the new vet said. Petrie does have syphilis. Props to this forum for suspecting it. We were given penicillin and the improvement is astonishing.

Also, Petrie is actually not a he but a SHE! I told the vet that I had suspicions Petrie was a female but I wasnt 100% sure how to check that at her age and my old vet assured me it was a male. In actuality, I have a female rabbit. Good thing her cage is purple!

Thank you to everyone who helped and thanks for referring me to a rabbit savvy vet!

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

UPDATE:
Sorry this took so long to post, but I thought Id inform you on what the new vet said. Petrie does have syphilis. Props to this forum for suspecting it. We were given penicillin and the improvement is astonishing.

Also, Petrie is actually not a he but a SHE! I told the vet that I had suspicions Petrie was a female but I wasnt 100% sure how to check that at her age and my old vet assured me it was a male. In actuality, I have a female rabbit. Good thing her cage is purple!

Thank you to everyone who helped and thanks for referring me to a rabbit savvy vet![/QUOTE---here is a medical link for rabbits http://www.medirabbit.com this site help you deal with the disease and the antibiotics,--the culture is the deciding factor for the course of action,,--probotics can be purchased at a farm supply store -this is a must have with any antibiotics,,--would you happen to know what penicillin she is getting??--I hope it is penicillin-G--big difference,,--timothy grass/orchard grasses can be used for bedding and the 24/7 haybin,,--you sound like a very caring mom,--keep up the good work,--sincerely james waller,--exotic dvm,s can be worth their weight in gold,---:jumpforjoy::bouquet::mrsthumper: