Tallulah's continued tummy troubles

[SnowyShiloh]

Poor Tallulah! She's a week shy of 6 months old and weighed 2 pounds two days ago. Today she weighs 2 1/4 pounds. She is noticeably heavier than yesterday and her tummy feels feels round and full. You can actually tell by looking at her that her belly is rounder than usual! She's eating and drinking fine and has been munching on hay lots, just like usual. I gave her a tummy massage and now she's zooming around the room doing crazy binkies, so she seems to feel okay. She's peeing and most of her poops are their normal consistency, but some are very tiny, some are bigger than usual and some are misshapen. On Tuesday, she left several wetter poops that I think were actually cecals, and last night she was sitting on the back of our futon and
"released" a small amount of brown liquid that smelled bad, I can't decide if it was poop or pee because their urine stinks, too! I even sniffed it up close (sorry if TMI) and couldn't decide. Today her bottom is a little dirty and smelly too.

We were at the vet a week and a half ago for the follow up appointment to her mites, and she was feeling heavier than usual then too, though not as much. The vet said her cecum was quite full of doughy matter, but since she was behaving, eating, drinking, pooping and peeing normally, there was nothing she could do. She said I should call if she was still like that in 2 days, but it went away.

I called the vet a few minutes ago and made an appointment with our vet for 11:50 am on Sunday, it's the soonest our vet will be in. They have other vets that see rabbits, but it didn't go very well last time we saw one of the less experienced vets.

What do you guys think is going on? Poor girl, why does she have to have so many troubles? A month ago she was treated for 2 weeks with an antibiotic for an upper respiratory infection and also got Revolution for her mites. I just want her to feel better! The good thing though is that she's started binkying again in the past week and a half, which she hadn't done since she was about 2 months old, so at least she seems to be feeling a bit better!

 

[naturestee]

Poor little girl. Have you ever had her poop tested for parasites? I wonder if she has coccidea.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Naturestee, she was tested for worms 2 weeks ago. What is coccidea? She finished her binky fest and has been lying down for about 20 minutes now. She's so cute, but I'm worried she's lying down because she doesn't feel good!

I hope she gets all better soon, we're going to be out of town from April 19-April 22nd picking up our new bunny from the airport. She's going to be staying with our bunny loving friends, they haven't had bunnies before but really like Rory and Tallulah.

 

[naturestee]

Coccidea is a protazoa (single-celled, not a "worm") that can infect the intestines or liver. It's really common in rabbits, and many will have a small amount in them at any time but aren't affected by it. Young rabbits are usually more likely to have problems with it. Here's some info:

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Protozoal_diseases/coccidiosis_general.PDF

Ask your vet if he checked for coccidea. Even if he looked for it and didn't see it, it's a good idea to treat for it anyways as it's not always easy to detect. I've been told that it makes rabbit poop smell funny (and it is a cause of diarrhea), although I haven't experienced it. My kitten Lily had it and it gave her some awful bloating and gas.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

I don't think the vet checked for it. It sounds scary! If she does have it, will it ever go away? Is it safe to bring Monroe here? The article says it's hard to find and hard to treat. It says though that bunnies usually lose weight, while Tallulah has gained... I hope it's not coccidea and am going to try not to worry too much about it. The vet last time said her cecum felt full, maybe it's that again.

 

[naturestee]

Keep in mind that the article is also looking at the worst-case scenario. Just because some rabbits loose weight and sometimes even die from coccidea, it does not mean that Tallulah will.

There's a diagram in the article with drawings of a rabbit's GI system and what is affected by different species of coccidea. One species looks like it mainly lives in the cecum.

I think it's a really good idea to treat her regardless of test results. If I remember right, the medication used for it is generally well tolerated by rabbits. It doesn't really matter which species of coccidea she has as they are all killed by the meds.

IMO it should be ok to bring Monroe home, just keep him separate from Tallulah till she's done being treated. Like I said before, coccidea is very common in rabbits so even if you can't get rid of it 100%,it's ok. You just want to get it in control, where her body will be able to keep the coccidea population small on it's own and itwon't be causing any more problems for her.

Edit: It's also possible she has megacolon like Fey (and Sprite). What does she look like? Sorry, I haven't been able to keep up with the forum lately. Megacolon is more common in dwarf hotots, English Spots, and other breeds with similar color patterns. Oh, and red eyed whites although I don't seem tohear of as many of those being affected. My vet looked specifically for coccidea for Fey and Sprite and ruled it out, time showed their problems to be partially dietarybut generallyconstant, although they don't usually get gas unless their stomachs were upset from their diet.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Tallulah is a Holland Lop. Here's a picture from a couple weeks ago to give you an idea of her markings:

You can kind of see the spots that go down her spine.

How separate do they need to be? I was planning to have Monroe's cage over Tallulah's, is that too close do you think? I want to keep him safe too! And after she's treated, do I need to worry about keeping them apart or anything? Sorry so many questions! You're a big help. Do you happen to know what she should be treated with and how long?

 

[naturestee]

I *think* that megacolon is more associated with rabbits that have black and white markings, but maybe it works with brown too. Especially since she doesn't have many spots on her, as that seems to make it more likely. The genes that control the color pattern are also thought to affect neurons in the intestine- patchy color and fewer spots of it sometimes means fewer and patchy distribution of neurons in the intestine meaning it doesn't always work right.

But let's start with coccidea because I think it's too early to look at chronic conditions. There are several different drugs listed in the Medirabbit article. My vet, and many others, use Albon: http://www.pfizerah.com/product_overview.asp?drug=AO&country=US&lang=EN&species=CN

I'm not sure how long the treatment needs to last. I think Lily's meds went for two weeks. The Rabbit Drug Dosage Calculator says 9 days: http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html

Give her a nose rub for me will you? Tummy troubles are rotten!

Edit: It should be okay to have Monroe's cage over Tallulah's, since coccidea is only spread through contact with fecal matter. To be safe, I wouldn't let him play in the same space as she does. It might be a good idea to disinfect any carpeting, etc. but I'm not sure how to do that.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

That's really interesting about the genetics of color pattern and intestines! I'll write down those medication names to bring along to the vet. And I will give Tallulah nose rubs for you, she's such a doll! I think her tummy is hurting her because she doesn't want me picking her up and she's been lying down a lot, but that could just be because she's back in her cage now. I'll let her out again and see how she behaves!

She isn't very good about pooping in her litter box yet, which means I have to clean up around 80 turds (no joke) every night after she plays. Do I need to worry about Rory getting sick, too?? They play in the same area... In any case, I will ask the vet about what I need to do!

 

[Haley]

Poor Tallulah! I would also suspect coccidea, which can cause their poops to have a horrible smell. Does hers smell stronger or different than your others?

It could just be a GI imbalance, with her being on different meds lately. Has she eaten any other different foods this week?

If her poops are runny at all just be sure shes getting lots of fluids for now. I would put some pedialyte in her water to help keep her hydrated.

I would also keep her away from Rory right now and wash your hands after you play with her or clean her cage just to be sure.

Keep us posted!

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Oh that sweet tiny girl! I hope she's ok.

 

[Flashy]

Aw bless her.

I might also be thinking pin worms. Why? Because before mine start pooing them, say, maybe a week and a half before, they get fuller stomachs that goes away within a couple of days. This has happened several time with different rabbits. I am not sure, but I don't think pin worms show up in a fecal unless there are adults present, so maybe when she was tested, she just had eggs?

I'm just giving you another line of thought. Coccidia sounds more possible, but it can't hurt to have other ideas too.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Sorry I didn't update earlier! I just got home from an all day class and was in a big hurry this morning, so no time to write. I haven't had much time to observe Tallulah this evening yet, but at the moment she's chowing down on hay in her litter box and looks perfectly alert. Last night she was jumping on the couch to be with us, as usual, and did more binkies. This morning she was excited about her food like normal, but didn't eat it all immediately like she usually does. When I got home all her food was gone though. I will update after she's had some time to run around! Thanks for all the advice and good thoughts, I will also ask about pinworms being a possibility. I really want to beat this! She's such a darling bunny and really deserves to be healthy. I love my girl so much. Last night I was a little afraid to go to bed in case she got sicker and died during the night. She certainly wasn't on her deathbed or anything, but the rash of healthy bunny deaths the last few days really worry me, especially since she isn't as healthy as some of the buns who have died! Thankfully, she was still with us this morning though May that continue to happen every morning the the next, oh, 15 plus years!!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Another update! Miss Mae spent the past hour and a half or so hopping around. She did some binkies and pooped all over, as usual. The poops are normal consistency, but some are big and some are small. She doesn't feel as hefty today, but she has some little doots stuck to her butt. Also, her nose is running

Thanks for caring, everyone!

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Bo does that tiny and large poos when he's not getting enough moisture. I have to literally wet his greens when I wash them and give them to him on a plate so they are wet when he eats them. It does help.

He is difficult because he gets soft poos from some veggies and all that good stuff.

SO... we give him real wet veggies but limit them....

Romaine will give him soft poos and a nasty butt in no time.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Interesting, Bo! Tallulah gets her water from a water bottle and drinks a lot every day, it never really occurred to me that maybe she's not drinking enough. Maybe I should give her a bowl and see if she drinks more? She has a bottle because she poops all over her cage and is also a master poo flinger, so I'm pretty sure I'd need to wash her bowl out 10 times a day because of poop in it.

I'll ask the vet when she thinks Tallulah should get started on greens. She'll be 6 months old on Wednesday. Wowie! I've had my girly girl for 4 months now! On I believe last Monday, before the big tummy stuff happened again (since this isn't the first time but she saw the vet for it the first time too), I fed her a tiny piece of baby lettuce from Rory's organic spring mix. The piece was seriously smaller than my thumb nail, about 2/3 the size, and I have tiny hands. Could that amount have upset her tummy for this long do you think?

 

[SnowyShiloh]

We're back from the vet! The vet said that her cecum is very enlarged and full, you can actually feel it curled around her abdomen She didn't finish her breakfast before we left this morning. The vet said her runny nose the past couple days is probably because her tummy hurts so she's grinding her teeth. Tallulah was prescribed Benebac, 1 gram once a day indefinitely, as well as metoclopromide syrup, 5 mg every 12 hours until her tummy is back to normal size. It's a gut motility drug as the vet feels she's in a bit of stasis as well. She also prescribed trimeth sulfa, 5 mg every 12 hours until the bottle runs out, which should take about 2 weeks. The trimeth sulfa is similar to Albon and is for her possible coccidea. We have a follow up exam on Thursday, April 24.

The good news is that Tallulah's tummy isn't as big as it was the day before yesterday, and also her skin is healing from the mites! And of course it's good that the vet doesn't think she has a URI again.

We're going to be out of town from Saturday, April 19 until Tuesday, April 22nd. We'll be in Anchorage picking up our little Monroe. The vet said she thought Tallulah will be fine staying at our friends' house for those four days and they can give her her meds every day. We can drop her off Saturday morning and pick her up Tuesday night, so she'd be with them for 3 nights. I feel bad leaving her, but the vet thinks she'll be okay and our friends love the bunnies. This is the only weekend that will work for bringing Monroe home and all the arrangements have already been made with the airline, JAK Rabbitry, Paul's parents, my classes and Paul's work.

The vet said that it should be fine to bring Monroe home in the midst of all this, but I need to keep him away from her and not let him play where she usually plays until she's better. When we were at the feed store picking up hay, I saw that they have some nicely sized rabbit cages on sale and I'm considering buying one to put Tallulah in when she's at our friends' house (her cage is too big to move), then sanitizing it when we get back and keeping Monroe in it upstairs in our bedroom.

How does all this sound? The diagnosis, medications, the leaving of Tallulah and the cage? Thanks so much for helping, everyone! She was unhappy at the vet, grinding her teeth and everything like she usually does, but now she's running around playing.

 

[mouse_chalk]

I don't know much about the medication she's been given so I'll leave that to someone else, but I'm glad the vet listened to you and she's doing something!

Poor little Tallulah! I hate her being ill, she's just too beautiful to be sick!

Tell her she has to get better soon! And give her a cuddle from me! :hug:

 

[naturestee]

Sounds pretty good to me. I'm a bit concerned about the gut motility drug but we'll see how she does. If she acts uncomfortable it might be a good idea to stop as some think the gut motility drugs can cause some pain when they work. Other people have seen mainly good responses from them, there's a lot of mixed opinions.

Otherwise, everything sounds great. Hopefully this will be the last of the problems, poor little girl!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Thanks, Jen and Naturestee!:biggrin2: I was a little concerned about the gut motility drug too since just last night I was reading some about it, but the vet really thought it could help and it's only for a few days. I will definitely stop giving it to her if it seems to be causing her distress! She got it about 3 1/2 hours ago and seems perfectly cheerful so far. She pooped a cecal on the carpet, which was kinda gross, but maybe the medicine is working! If her cecum is really full and she's getting a motility drug, I'd think it would make her poop out the excess cecals.

Tallulah finished her breakfast when I put her back in her cage after letting her run around since we got home from the vet's, now she's flopped in her cage. I hope her little tummy feels better soon. I'm pretty optimistic that this round of medication could be what makes her better, she's suffered from weird poop since right after I got her and it will be so nice to see her happy and healthy and growing big! She has been growing pretty well lately, but she's still small and young looking for a 6 month old bunny. I'm not very experienced with baby bunnies, but if I just saw her I'd guess her age at about 3 1/2 months old. Who knows if that's accurate or not!

Oh and the vet didn't actually test for coccidea, she said it was difficult to diagnose and it won't hurt her to just treat for it. Basically, what Naturestee said Oh, and has anyone heard of a bunny being on daily Benebac for a long period of time? The vet recommended just keeping her on it until the tube runs out and until she's better. It doesn't help that the poor girl is shedding right now!