Sukura's kits

[TinysMom]

murph72 wrote:

I will not apologize for my statements. I feel that you either can afford to breed in an environment that is free from stress for your bunnies, or you shouldn't be breeding. I stand by that 100%. I think this is especially true in a household where there are other pets, small children, or many people that will be disturbing the does. Yes, you can have them in your house if you have a calm house and the inhabitants of that house are going to give the does their space, privacy, and will know the proper way to handle them....however, and here's the big however, I'm getting the idea here that Paul's family may not know what they are doing with breeding and his household is not the best environment to raise rabbits in.

Disagree with me if you want and I'm certainly not trying to start an argument, but I am tired of people who think that breeding rabbits is something you should do if you have two rabbits that you like. Breeding rabbits should not be done on a whim. It is harmful to the rabbits you profess to love. If you don't know what you're doing you put your own rabbits at risk. I've personally had to help give birth to stuck kits. If you're not prepared for such a situation, it's too late to learn online what to do. If you don't act your doe dies. In my opinion, that's too late to learn what you're doing. Research first. Set up a proper area to breed first. Know the market for the rabbits you want to sell. Then, and only then, think aboutbreeding your rabbits.

First of all - to the person who saw a fight coming on - there is no need for fighting. Many times on this forum we may disagree with someone - but we go on with our own beliefs, etc

I can think of at least three lionhead breeders I know or have known who have rabbitries or portions of their rabbitry in the house. All three are breeders who go to shows and win awards - so these aren't "backyard breeders".

I also agree with having a stress-free environment - BUT - I also believe that rabbits can become acclimated to the environment so it is stress-free.

For example - my rabbitry is right off my living room - and my back door is right there in the rabbitry. To put our dogs in the back yard - they go through the rabbitry - several times per day (in and out). Frequently the door is left open to let fresh air in...

My rabbits couldn't care less about my dogs - they're so used to it now. They know that the dogs are going THROUGH the rabbitry and not stopping to sniff at cages.

So my does couldn't care less about the dogs. In fact, I've had some that would come to the front of the cage to watch the dogs as they went by.

When I had pregnant and nursing does - they knew the environment - they knew about the dogs and to be honest with you - the dogs never stressed them out. I watched them to see how they handled it. Because most of my does were born and raised here - or had lived with us for a bit before being bred...to them it was just "home".

Now if I had just bought a doe - I would not breed her until she had been in the rabbitry for a while and felt "safe". I also would put her in a cage where she would be back away from the action and so it wouldn't bother her (depending upon the side of the room she is in).

In addition - I check my babies several times per day - even from the day they're born. Frequently my family will check in on them too.

Once again though - my does are used to this...they're used to us being "in their face" so to speak.....

Plus - sometimes I will try to have cheerios around (especially at first) and when I go to check a doe's nest - I'll give her a cheerio or two. I've had does watch me come into the rabbitry and practically beg me to come over and open their door so they could have a treat. I forget which doe it was - but one of my does once tried to pull her nestbox to the door so I WOULD look at her babies...it was hilarious to see her trying to drag that thing closer to the door.

Do I expect other breeders to have that relationship with their does? Nope. I don't even have that relationship with all of my does. The ones that are more shy - I do honor that and while I will still check their babies - I might not do it as often - or I might open the door and do a count real quickly and move on if the doe seems nervous.

I respect Murph72 for what they believe....even if I disagree with them. I've learned over the years I bred that there's a whole lot more to breeding than I'll ever know - I'll never know it all - and that there are different styles and approaches to being a breeder.

I think what is most important is that you put your rabbit first....no matter whether they live in a barn - a hutch outside - a shed - or inside. You need to know them well enough to meet their needs so they feel safe and secure.

Let me close by sharing a cute story....we had one doe named Ainsley and I loved her to pieces. But Ainsley had a problem...she was claustophobic. If she was in a "middle" cage in a row of cages - she had fits. It stressed her out terribly. Put her in an end cage - and she was just as happy as could be.

One day we were cleaning the rabbitry and had put all the cages outside while we mopped the floors, etc. As Art was restacking cages - he put Ainsley in the middle of a row. I asked him to move her (before he was about to put in the next cage beside her. He said, "She'll be fine". He placed that next cage and she had fits in her cage - running in circles - very agitated. He stood and watched for about 5 minutes and said, "What's wromg with her?" I explained her problem - he moved her to an outside position (keeping her in her same cage) - and she laid down and went to sleep.

To me - as a person - she was secure in either location - her cage would've been fine. But I knew my doe - I knew what she needed to feel secure...and she got it.

Looking back on that - I feel like I put her needs first...and I'm glad I did.

 

[Happi Bun]

^I just wanted to say, WOW! Amazing post. :bow

 

[Elf Mommy]

Well put, Peg!

 

[irishbunny]

If your does are used to being inside Peg then that's great but obviously something must be going wrong if Paul's does are abandoning the kits, plus I don't think his mother is too happy about having them in the kitchen by the sounds of it, and I can't blame her.

 

[Peek-a-boo]

like i said i do generally believe theres to many people fussing over the babies all the time imagine you having a baby and everyone fussing over it all day everyday. i also think Paul is panicing in thinking there being rejected when there not i can understand how that could happen. i also know the excitment of having baby buns and wanting to look at them all the time ive been there myself. my bedroom was quite a noisy place and Crystal didnt reject her babies at all i used to check her nest twice a day with the whole family so we all got to see them. but i do understand each rabbit would probably react in different ways

 

[murph72]

Peek-a-boo.....That's a great way for you to do it, to have everyone check the bunnies with you so that you know that they're time being handled is limited, but everyone still gets a chance to see them.

Peg, although your situation may have been a good one within the home, I'm not so sure that it is the norm. You had a seperate space that was devoted to the bunnies. You didn't just slap them in cages in the midst of a chaotic room. You knew the personalities of your bunnies and you knew who was handling the kits and when they were being handled. I'm sure you also did research prior to breeding and knew when it was necessary to handle the kits and when they were best left alone with their mom. That being said, most people do not have a separate room in their home to devote to their rabbitry, nor is everyone's house condusive to breeding. Although mine might be, I've found my rabbits are happier in their own space. On top of that, I think I have far too many buns for in one home. I think I'd have to switch them and live in the barn if they all lived in the house.

I would also like toadd that my rabbits are around my five cats often, but I do not trust my cats to be left alone with their kits. An adult bunny will stand up for itself against a cat or dog. I've saved my own cats from "bunnies on attack" several times. However, the kits are defenseless. A friend of mine lost three of her four kits because she trusted her dog too far. She left the door open and they were in a playpen. When she returned to check on them, only one was left as the dog probably got full and left. I also lost my first rabbit to a neighbor's dog who broke through the fencing and mauled the rabbit to death before my parents heard it's screams. I guess it's these experiences that leave me a bit leary about having my rabbits with any other type of pet unattended as I know that not all of them can be trusted at all times.

I also do not let my neice and nephew unattended in the rabbitry when there are kits. A three year old won't think twice to picking up the bunny and then dropping it. Besides that, the kids like to scream far more than my bunnies are comfortable with. During pregnancy, especially, I limit their visits and stress that quiet is a necessity for the welfare of the babies.