Stasis for the THIRD time?!?

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At least with dental issues the problem is identified.

i have one with serious problems with his mouth

Please keep us up-dated with his problems.

Maureen
 
OK, time for another update. I would have posted earlier but I am sooo wiped.

Tuesday night Sass finished all his greens and was acting otherwise fine. Wednesday morning he didn't touch his pellets, so I offered him parsley. At least he had that in his stomach, along with cisapride because then the vets offcie called saying that they had an opening for him at noon to get his teeth done!

I rushed him in and they filed down his molars. They did not see any significant spikes, which is a bad thing because a mola spur would have answered what was bothering him. I took him home that evening.

He would not TOUCH his food or water that night. He did nibble some hay, and *tried* to bite the soft part of his lettuce, but did not even try for water or pellets. He wouldn't even eat his critical care which he LOVES, so I had to syringe it to him. I gave him cisapride and figured if he still wasn't eating in the morning, I would take him in. This whole problem was worsened because at least he was getting water from greens, now he was getting NONE.

In the morning I found he had pushed aside his hut and made a little hole for himself to hide in. He didn't move for many hours so I pulled him out, gave him more critical care and cisapride. He proceeded to hunch over in a corner, in another place in the living room that resembled a hole. He was obviously not happy, had hardly any poop in his box (although the poop that was there did not look horrible- it was just very dry and few)

I called vet and after explaining a few times what was going on, they told me I could drop him off and the vet would examine him when they had time.

I spoke with my father in the meantime, a very wise man, and he said that he had a feeling this was something that was not going to resolve. He felt it was a genetic gut issue, one that would continue to reoccur. We discussed the possibility of putting Sass to sleep if this turns out to be chronic, and NO ANSWER could be found as to why this is happening. Sass HATES being held, he is starting to dislike me and this is just not a good existence for him.

:bigtears:

I want my beautiful sassy bunny back SO BAD.

I brought him to the vet and I said I wanted to talk to the vet that day, also to discuss euthanasia. The lady at the front said 'but we aren't at the point to do that yet!' and I said but Sass might be, this has been such a hard summer for him and if it continues like this, it is no life...

I spoke with a friend about his rabbits that afternoon, and he really gave me some advice. His rabbits were very similar to Sass, and died the same age as Sass literally to the MONTH. Both had chronic gut issues, and ultimately it was a blockage that was killing one of them. My friend had them put to sleep within a month of each other- they were both so ridden with problems, and the one with the blockage was found to have a rupture upon necropsy.

He suggested it could be a chronic gut issue, and if that is the case I need to know if this is something that will frequently occur (we are talking every couple weeks here, not months even) and if that is a good life. He also suggested head/teeth roots abscess, Sass did have the head xray done at the other vets and nothing too exciting was seen. Sass can have another xray with this vet if it is suspected.

After this conversation, I went back and spoke with Sass' vet. She said that his GI slowdown is probably much harder on me than it is on him. She said he is 'on the fence' right now, and she can't say whether or not he is going to go on either side. She said he will be staying at the vets for a couple nights, more for ME than for him, because she thinks I am too stressed out to make any logical moves right now. She said that when one of her pets gets sick, she also shuts down and has to give it to someone else to heal because she cannot make those decisions with her own animals.

We discussed that he might have had a hairball that caused GI slowdown this summer, and she said it might take months and months to heal. We also discussed genetics- she said 'if someone could promise me that they would live the full 10 years, I would have a rabbit. But I can't bear to own one... I have seen people who are horrible owners, with the worst husbandtry, but the rabbit lives to be 14 years old. And some have wonderful care and barely make it to adulthood. There is a reason they produce so many in a litter...'

She decided 'to hell with what he SHOULD eat' and wants him just to EAT. SO we went outdide and picked some dandelion greens, fresh long grass and blackberry leaves from the plants arounf the abandoned train tracks. We washed and put them in Sass' pen at the vets- before we left he had munched on a bladeof grass, in defiance I think :nod

So. Where are we now? Well, it seems this could be a genetic thing. It seems there doesn't always have to be a 'cause' for GI slowdown. It seems Sass' likely death at this point will come from a hair blockage, and there is NOTHING I can do about it but make him comfortable. If he did not eat or poop, they were going to do bloodwork. I mentioned possibly doing a head xray, but I think vet is doubting that is necessary.

Today I called to check in and they said he ate and pooped overnight, and made more poops this morning. They are just giving him what he could eat, whethwe it is store bought greens or the lovely ones picked outside. I don't know if they are hydrating him, I DO know they will not give him pain meds (see explanation below). I don't even know if he is getting cisapride. I don't think they will be force feeding him anything. Just letting him be, quite literally, and will step in if they need to. He will be there again all day today and tonight. I don't know if bloodwork will be done.

I am crushed, because I wished so bad this is something that could be 'fixed'. But at this point it doesn't look like anyone can fix this little guy, only he can decide what he wants to do. In the meantime, I will continue waking up in the morning, wondering whether he will eat today. It is exhausting, and maddening. I don't know- maybe this will all pass in a few months and he will live to be an old rabbit without any more issues. Or maybe he will die next week in excrucuating pain... I just don't know, I don't think anyone knows. I only know that I will have to be OK with this and learn to live this way with him. It is frustrating because all next week I am working 16 hour days on a film set for FREE nonetheless... So I won't be able to help him or give him medicine if he needs it. Maybe this is a good thing, maybe he needs to literally be ignored. Maybe they are really feeding off my stress. I will probably have time to feed them in morning and night, change the litterboxes before collapsing into bed and doing the work day all over again.

I will probably talk to vet again soon, and find out whether bloodwork/xrays are done. Will keep everyone posted with him. Chloe, my other bun (bless his itty bitty heart) is eatinag and behaving normal so he can be my little anchor for a while.

* note on pain meds: I know some people REALLY believe in giving buns pain meds when they even suspect a bit of discomfort. Sass' vet however, believes that yes pain meds DO slow down the gut, and if a slow gut is already the problem it will NOT help. She says they only work for the quickly onsetting acute pain, and then the rabbit is so relieved once it gets pain meds that it will eat. She said for mild discomfort, and for slow setting chronic pain, they will adapt to it and the pain meds will only slow their guts down and make them tired. SO we have opted to see how he does without any pain meds.
 
You sound so sad :(

Initially I didn't know quite how to respond to this post because it seems as if you are doing everything possible to try to identify the problem and are hitting adead end.
I went back and reread the threadand hesitated on Pipp's post re. Dill , she lost him quickly and on necropsy learned that he had a stomach tumor that had spread to his liver. He had continuous bouts of gas previous to this.
I am thinking tht it would be wise to learnSass's lab values. i wonder why your vet hasn't done this yet.? it's possible that Sass has an issue with another organ system and that it's affecting his GI tract.
The purpose of filing his teeth was to help his eating and GI problems.. but if his teeth were not the issue then the procedure itself would have created enough discomfort to compound his eating issues. (I 'm sure that he experienced some pain after the procedure. )

so you have recovery from a dental procedure in addition to whatever was going on before.
Is it possible that the hair mass is carpet or somethng that will take time to pass through/? if so then he could alternate betweenseeming Ok and having bouts of stasis depending on where themass would be.

I have heard ( but don't know why) that motility drugs should not be given for extended periods of time. That would be something to look into.
There is another forum member, Jenk, who is having very similar issues with her 2 girls Zoe and Emma. If you have not read her posts it might be helpful. the GI issues are very similar except for food sensitivites.
I would advise you to post here more frequently. A lot of people on the forum have chronic health problems with their rabbits and it's a really good place to get emotional support.

Sometimes it just helps to have people around who understand and listen. ;)
 
angieluv wrote:
I have heard ( but don't know why) that motility drugs should not be given for extended periods of time.
I think this is because the body grows dependent on them, much like humans taking laxitives.

As for genetics, the list of the more overtdefects in rabbits is a long one. Here's a post from Pam Nock answering somebody's query about genetic defects, and she's only listingthe moreobvious ones.

pamnock wrote:
Albinism is a genetic mutation as is dwarfism (any dwarf breeds such as Netherland Dwarfs, Dwarf Hotot, Holland Lop, etc.), hypospadias (split penis) occurs in many breeds, some eye defects (such as entropian) more common in lop breeds, max factor (most common in Netherlands, but occurs in other breeds), paralytic tremors (I've seen this condition in Belgian Hares), spina bifida (in some Dutch lines), hydrocephalus, bupthalmia (glaucoma), brachydactyly (shortened limbs), ataxia (lack of muscle control), yellow fat, hypogonadia (lacking sperm or ova), cryptorchidism (undesceneded testicle), splay leg,hypertension, atherosclerosis and many more!
What comes to my uneducated mind in GI cases is a malfunctioning pyloric muscle -- maybe congenital pyloric stenosis? I also see the term 'muscular hypertrophy' thrown around a lot.

The plyorus is at the endof the stomach and beginning of the small intestine. I think itinvolves a valve and a muscle, and themuscleconstricts to keep intestinal matter from reentering the stomach. But it can thicken and keep matter from leaving the stomach. (Don't quote me on that).

There are genetic problems with this area (I think my foster Jordan had anissue with the pyloric valve, asprobably did hislittermates whoalso died young).

It can also be affected by mycotoxics in food.

And I'm not clear on this,but I also seereferences to potassium and nitric oxide -- a deficiency may be a cause? Something like that.

Definitely needs more research, but worth looking into.

I'm still not sure that Dill's gas attacks were related to the cancer, seeing as they seemed to be caused by cilantro or missed 'bad' spots onveggies. They also went away with a few doses of Simethicone -- good news/bad news. Had they been more common (he only had three or four a most) or lasted longer, it would have been worth an xray, and maybe the cancer would have been spotted. But that's just a very sad'what if'. :(

Whatever it is, I hope Sass toughs it out. Sorry for your stress. :(

sas :?
 
Thanks guys those are two excellent posts.

Vet called me back and left a message (how I wish she could have called my cell phone so I could have talked to her!). Sass has eaten many veggies servings Friday and pellets. Vet said he pooped (probably not as big as you would like, but normal enough for us she said) and she repeated that he seems well enough to come home Saturday although "he may not be 100% by your standards". I have NO idea if he has been hydrated but I am pretty sure I will not be going home with sub q's, I have no idea if he has been given motility drugs, but it says in his charts that they took a blood panel. Results may come in today. They didn't do a jaw xray as far as I know, I don't know how much that would show anyway.

To answer some concern, Sass has not actually shown any gas symptoms. He doesn't stop eating altogether, he just slows down. That is the only way I can put it. It is like he is interested in food, not so interested etc. He seems to take less pleasure in eating then he used to. But since February (before his molars were found to have a large spur) he hasn't had a 'gas attack'. He ratehr just gets pickier with his food, then he stops drinking, as poops gets smaller, meanwhile I give cisapride, then he will be as right as rain for two weeks only for it to happen again.

Again, we discussed with the vet that he might have had a hairball that caused GI slowdown this summer, and she said it might take months and months to heal. His gut might be out of balance right now and it may indeed take awhile...

Maureen, that is a good point re: carpet or foreign mass. We are quite sure it isn't that at this point, both because I haven't seen him chew anything unusual for a long, long (year or more?) time. His x ray also didn't show any mass this time, as it had in June. I saw some very odd poops with TONS of hair in them while Sass was feeling better in July, it is assumed he passed a bunch of the hair mass then and perhaps still has some left to go.

You are right though- it is helpful to have people around who understand and listen!

And sas- that post was an interesting one. I knew a bunny very close to me that had congenital pyloric stenosis. He did eventually die from a rupture in the pyloric muscle due to hair mass being wedged there (and bloat)- nothing could have been done. This rabbit had frequent sudden stasis and gas episodes over his short 3 years on Earth, so he was a bit different from Sass in that way (whereas Sass has slow GI slowdown, no gas attacks, and this has started just this summer). However, it doesn't discount that as a possibility, and would fall into line of the 'genetics' conversation with vet.

At this point I will be picking up Sass today, wait to hear how the blood values come back, I also need to find out whether to continue with Cisapride or back off completely. Whenever he slowed down this summer, I would get him on the motilitys, and it did make a difference as he did get better (slowly) but I wonder if he would have gotten better on hisown too. After all, those large hair-mass poops were actually passed when he was OFF the motilitys.

Thanks for the help guys, this is all good advice. I will keep you posted on how conversation with vet goes today, Sass will be home and I think I will leave the house ALL DAY so he can chill, hehe.
 
You sound way better today..so keep on posting :D

and we'll just keep
plowing ahead with Sass's stasis (tongue twister):p

take a look at jenk's post too

Maureen
 
Just a quick update this time,

Sass is home! he came back with us yesterday afternoon. And he is eating, picky with the food but eating and drinking. He might leave his food for a bit before getting around to eating it but it seems today especially he is a much healthier rabbit.

Fot me the most positive thing is to see he is drinking from his water dish. When he won't touch it, its always been a bad sign.

He did have bloodwork done, and the chemistry has come back. Liver enzymes are a bit elevated, but I was told this is not a concern unless the rest of the blood panel comes back abnormal. So we will wait untill Monday to hear about that.

He is still on cisapride, he really hates being given it and holds the longest grudge against me after.

I wonder too if he is a rabbit that does not handle heat well. It gets 80+ many days in the summer in my apartment, and there is NOTHING I can do about it (even windows open and fan doesn't help) and I cannot buy air conditioning. I am not sure how much his GI slowdown is related to heat, gut issues, or anything at this point but it is soemthing to keep into consideration on warm days.

I will update with any changes/when I hear how his blood panel is.
 

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