Stasis (Again), So It Seems....

[Jenk]

Firstly, does anyone know if sub-Qs alone can truly help a bun who's prone to very frequent stasis?

I gave her Simethicone (three doses) two days' ago, as I'd noticed her lying in her litter box. I'm unsure if she was uncomfy or just didn't want to lie on the laminate floor that we just installed. :?

At Emma's last vet visit, the vetput her on Reglandue to very slow digestive sounds. She theorized that sub-Qs alone would only cause a lot of fluid to swish around inside but notnecessarily move anything out of the body.

For the past few weeks', I've split Emma's veggie feedings into two (AM and PM) and have given her less greens (to encourage her to eat more hay).This was fine until two nights' ago, when I noticed a few smallish fecals. This morning,nearly all ofher passed fecals are small and somewhat dryish. (She's not drank enough water over the past two days', despite the decreased greens.)

I've been crying off/on for the past two days' because I'm to the pointof talking with my husband about having Emma PTS. :tears2: Ijust can't stand this anymore. We can't afford tokeep throwing moneyafter a mystery that won't reveal itself. And I'm just emotionally shot because I can't simplyenjoy time with her. I must, instead, watch her like a hawk, fret over her diet, groom her like a madwomanandalways wonder when thenext vet visit will be (and how much it will cost). This is absolutely INSANE....It's not living anymore (and hasn't been for over six months' now). It's just one stressful day after another, after another, after...

Jenk

 

[TinysMom]

You've probably done this already - but in case you haven't - try putting a bit of vanilla in her water (just a couple of drops or so) - to see if it will make her want to drink more. Sometimes I keep baby apple juice around here (or another baby juice) and just put a few drops of it in to get a bunny drinking. I'd say make a weak blend of mint tea and try that instead...putting some into the water- not giving her straight tea...

 

[Jenk]

TinysMom wrote:

You've probably done this already - but in case you haven't - try putting a bit of vanilla in her water (just a couple of drops or so) - to see if it will make her want to drink more. Sometimes I keep baby apple juice around here (or another baby juice) and just put a few drops of it in to get a bunny drinking.

I haven't done that yet. To be honest, I'm leery of doing anything anymore, for fear of disrupting her gut flora (and anything else that can be disrupted by a new food source--in this case, fruit and its sugar content). I simply don't know what's causing this issue--and neither do two rabbit-savvy vets (per our lost money on useless diagnostics).

But I do realize that she needs to keep well-hydrated and will try a few drops of apple juice in her crock.

Rock and a hard place...rock and a hard place... :tears2:

 

[Luv-bunniz]

Have you talked to your vet about a hay-only diet? with just a few greens as treats every now and again?

If you are at the point where you think its best to have her PTS, I would. [[hugs]]

 

[Jenk]

Luv-bunniz wrote:

Have you talked to your vet about a hay-only diet? with just a few greens as treats every now and again?

Actually, the vet wondered if greens (or even one particular type) may be upsetting her gut. She recommended that if Emma experienced stasis again (which it seems that she is; she's passing fecals half of their normal size and some strung by a thick rope of fur), I give sub-Qs and wait 24 hours' to see if they make a difference.

She also suggested that I then try hay only for 6-8 weeks' and then re-introduce greens one at a time (feeding each for 6-8 weeks'). But, good gravy, I'm scared to make any dietary changes. (I did once have Emma on a hay-only diet for six weeks'--before stasis ever started--and she got too thin; so that's a concern, too. )

If you are at the point where you think its best to have her PTS, I would. [[hugs]]

I burst into tears reading your statement; I really don'twant to exercise that option. But I'm not sure what else to do. My husband's brought in our only income for the past 10 months'. (I worked part-time from last Jan.-Mar.) So I must listen to him gripe about all of our money going for rabbit health issues, while I shoulder the emotional burden. (I handle all three buns' diets and, thus,feel like it's my fault that I've not been able to make a difference in the past six months'; I'm fearful of changing/doing anything anymore....We don't know the cause.)

I'm thinking of "splurging" just once more on tests (x-rays of her mouth and again on her gut to see where the slowdown may be)--and possibly blood work, if it can show determine a possible electrolyte imbalance. (Cansuch an imbalance alone can cause repetitive stasis?)

 

[Maureen Las]

It is difficult to deal with an animal who has a chronic undiagnosedhealth issue. It creates extreme anxiety and unhappiness in the person/persons who love the animal because we feel helpless in knowing what to do , where to go, who to believe. We become very upset because we are spending so much money that we don't haveand/ or are creating credit card debt . Wemay notbe fully supported by a spouse/ loved onewho is not as attached to the animal as we are.

I am going through this right now with my rabbit , Beau, whose eye infection is presently spreading to his eyeball. I had to cancel my appt with the animal dentist in Madison last Wed because of the snow storms and my husband's flu. I don't know if Beau's eye will be able to be saved or not as I cannot getan appt until Jan 7th. I think that it is a tooth root infection spread to his eyeballbut , of course, I am not a dentist or rabbit saavy vet and cannot make a diagnosis.

Every day I wake up I feel anxious and sad. I clean the pus out of his eye, apply the salve and watch as his eyeball deteriorates. It hurts him when Iclean his eye so I feel his pain . I do not post often as I am too sad to post about it.


Many members of this forumare dealing with sick rabbits... rabbits with e-cuniculi, head tilt, broken backs, cat bites, abscesses, stasis, ear infectionetc. I should know as I respond to many of the posts. Many of the members of the forum struggle financially to care for their rabbits .

It is firmly my belief that animals were not placed on this earth to bring happiness and pleasure to humans. They have their own entitlement apart from us.When we take them in we make a commitment to them

I don't believe that an animal should be PTS because of the owner's inability to care for the pet, emotional state or financial state until every option is exhausted.

Stongheart (rescue section)) offered to take a parlayzed bunny into her sanctuary after a plea for the life of a parlayzed bun had been in rescue for weeks.

I would never recommend PTS unless the rabbit was hopelessly sick and in pain. it is only an easy out for the owner.

Jenk,

Subqutaneous fluid need to be given regularly in order for them to be effective. Are you giving subqutaneous fluids regularly?


If Emma has dental issues then she does. Not being able to afford it, not wanting her to have dental issues in no way means that she doesn't have them. Avoiding good radiographs may possibly be costing you more than trying to avoid something that is REALLY the problem.

Passing small dry poops with fur is not stasis but the passing of hair ingested

Any vet that would tell me that Subqutaneous fluids would "swish around inside" would give me great doubts



Maureen

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

It is difficult to deal with an animal who has a chronic undiagnosedhealth issue. It creates extreme anxiety and unhappiness in the person/persons who love the animal because we feel helpless in knowing what to do, where to go, who to believe. We become very upset because we are spending so much money that we don't haveand/ or are creating credit card debt. Wemay notbe fully supported by a spouse/ loved onewho is not as attached to the animal as we are.

You're preaching to the choir....

I am going through this right now with my rabbit , Beau, whose eye infection is presently spreading to his eyeball....Every day I wake up I feel anxious and sad. I clean the pus out of his eye, apply the salve and watch as his eyeball deteriorates. It hurts him when Iclean his eye so I feel his pain . I do not post often as I am too sad to post about it.

I'm am very sorry that you're going through this experience.

Many members of this forumare dealingwith sick rabbits...rabbits with e-cuniculi, head tilt, broken backs, cat bites, abscesses, stasis, ear infectionetc. I should know as I respond to many of the posts. Many of the members of the forum struggle financially to care for their rabbits.

I've not earned an income in10 months' time and havewatched a decent portion of our savings dip inan effort to chase down the cause of GI stasis (and, of course, the digestive issues of our other bun). We are financially shot and bitter, as none of our money goes for our needs anymore.

It is firmly my belief that animals were not placed on this earth to bring happiness and pleasure to humans. They have their own entitlement apart from us.When we take them in we make a commitment to them.

I feared that I would find judgment in writing what I did; so let me explain myself further: I do not believe that animals are here solely for humans' happiness. But when humans are drowning in the cost of keeping the pet alive (and even local rabbit-savvy vets aren't a true help, to date), it's hard to not want to save oneself in order to keep a roof over one's head. I'm sorry, but $5K spent in 14 months' time is INSANE. (Another $3K was spent during that time on our cat.) We are burned out on so many levels.

I have lived, breathed and gone without so many things for the sake of the rabbits. And for my commitment I've given away much of our money and twisted myself up in emotional knots.

I don't believe that an animal should be PTS because of the owner's inability to care for the pet, emotional state or financial state until every option is exhausted....I would never recommend PTS unless the rabbit was hopelessly sick and in pain. it is only an easy out for the owner.

I once felt as you do. The past 14 months' have rather altered myopinion.

My husband has agreed to us trying x-rays (again), this time of her jaw area, as well. We may also do another fecal culture. But if nothing is revealed from those tests, all we can do is chase down symptoms and live with a super-stressful/-expensive mystery.

Subqutaneous fluidneed to be given regularly in order for them to be effective. Are you giving subqutaneous fluids regularly?

Define regularly.

I have not given them at home (yet) but have the tools. I'm uncertain if now is the time to do so, or if I should wait longer yet. (She's still passing a normal amount of fecals; they're justhalf-sized anddry.)

If Emma has dental issues then she does. Not being able to afford it, not wanting her to have dental issuesin no way means that she doesn't have them. Avoiding good radiographs may possibly be costing you more than trying to avoid something that is REALLY the problem.

I've answered this statement (above); I agree with you.

Passing small dry poops with fur is not stasis but the passing of hair ingested.

Those poops not strung together with fur appear to simply be dry, rather than filled with hair.

Any vet that would tell me that Subqutaneous fluids would "swish around inside" would give me great doubts.

Let me clarify: She said that since the gut's motility was so slow on its own, she was leery of giving just sub-Qs without Reglan at that particular time; she doubted that the fluids alone would move a gut that was making sounds spaced nearly one minute apart.

She did suggest that if my girl has another stasis bout, I try sub-Qs and wait 24 hours' to see if they alone make an improvement. If not, though, she wants to run some diagnostics.

 

[Maureen Las]

Did your vet give you an amount of fluid to administer? it is based on weight and would be done several times per day.?

Did she give you lactated ringers solution?

their is a generic mean amount on Dr Chark's dosage calculator based on weight but she should have given you a certain amount of cc's to be give x number of times per day.


http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html

if you look carefully you can find lactated ringers and add the pounds

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

Did your vet give you an amount of fluid to administer? it is based on weight and would be done several times per day.?

Did she give you lactated ringers solution?

She gives 30 cc's of lactated ringers solution at onetime (the same amount that the previous, exotics-only vet administered). She did not mention that I should give themseveral times daily, though; I'm unsure if I shouldeven give any at this point in time. :?

I was told to throw away the catheter/needle after every use; doesn't that get wasteful/pricey after a while, if sub-Qs are given so frequently?

She also suggested that I use the syringe for two administrations (three, tops) before pitching it. Again, it just galls me when a syringe is $2 at the vet's office (and quite possibly may be required on a regular basis from here-on-out).

 

[Maureen Las]

Jenk wrote:

angieluv wrote:

Did your vet give you an amount of fluid to administer? it is based on weight and would be done several times per day.?

Did she give you lactated ringers solution?

She gives 30 cc's of lactated ringers solution at onetime (the same amount that the previous, exotics-only vet administered). She did not mention that I should give themseveral times daily, though; I'm unsure if I shouldeven give any at this point in time. :?

I was told to throw away the catheter/needle after every use; doesn't that get wasteful/pricey after a while, if sub-Qs are given so frequently?

She also suggested that I use the syringe for two administrations (three, tops) before pitching it. Again, it just galls me when a syringe is $2 at the vet's office (and quite possibly may be required on a regular basis from here-on-out).

If you are not sure about the number of times per day then wait until tomorrow and call the vet. I am not a vet so I cannot tell you what to do. I think that SQ would most likely benefit her but it's possible that you need more practice doing it to feel confident. There is a video floating around somewhere in the library . Did you ever see one?

I can understand your concern re. using a different needle every time but you cannot introduce any bacteria into the bodyby using a "dirty" needle. it would be the same as a doctor giving you an injection with the same needle that he used yesterday.
this is called 'sterile technique.
The reasoning behind what seems like wasteful use of medical supplies is really using everything sterile so as not to introduce a pathogen into her body.

I undertand how overwhelming this must be and I was not saying that you should even keep her. I was just against her being PTS. and probably reacted too strongly.
Sorry about that. :?

Maureen

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

If you are not sure about the number of times per day then wait until tomorrow and call the vet. I am not a vet so I cannot tell you what to do. I think that SQ would most likely benefit her but it's possible that you need more practice doing it to feel confident. There is a video floating around somewhere in the library . Did you ever see one?

Forgive me, but this is another peeve of mine with regards to bun ownership: Everyone is so afraid of getting sued, that they withhold offering even an opinion. (At least, I'm guessing that that's your reasoning, since Randy once said as much to me about his unwillingness to state specifics regarding one of my rabbit's care.) I've never faced such reluctance with issues regarding other animals species. But with buns, most everyone seems scared to evenmake recommendations. (I did have one person suggest 100 mL/day, which sounds about right to me; but I'm unsure, since the vet only mentioned giving 30 cc's at one time--not how many times to give that dose throughout the day.)

My husband goes back to work tomorrow, which makes it that much harder to space apart multiple doses of sub-Qs. I dare not give them myself. And it's so bitterly cold outside, I'd prefer to not take her out in it (unless I absolutely have to).

I can understand your concern re. using a different needle every time but you cannot introduce any bacteria into the bodyby using a "dirty" needle. it would be the same as a doctor giving you an injection with the same needle that he used yesterday.
this is called 'sterile technique.
The reasoning behind what seems like wasteful use of medical supplies is really using everything sterile so as not to introduce a pathogen into her body.

You've lost me....You've stated that bacteria cannot be re-introduced by re-using a needle; yet you say that there's a purpose to not re-using one. Which info. applies?

I undertand how overwhelming this must be and I was not saying that you should even keep her. I was just against her being PTS. and probably reacted too strongly.
Sorry about that.

It's not that I didn't expect some health issues now and again; but I had NO idea just how pervasive and life-sucking this experience would become. (Last night, my husband, who normally swallows his thoughts/feelings, told me that he feels that we have no time for our individual selves or for each other anymore; he's not wrong.)

I'll tell you what I told Flashy, and I'm being brutally honest here (so please don't flame me for it): I would be bitter as hell if someone else could take over and help Emma in some way that I could not. I've given up so much (including a writing business, that I'd tried to get off the ground when all of this began), that I would just taste bile if another human being could come along and find just the right solution for dealing with Emma's issues; it wouldn't seem fair--not after all that we've sacrificed in trying to find the issue and help her.

 

[Maureen Las]

I used the wrong word. What I meant to say is that bacteria can be reintroduced into the rabbit's' body if the needle has been used previously.
I cannot give specifics because I could cause harm to the rabbit if I'm wrong. I'. not a veterinarian ;I'm not even close to being as knowledgeable as Randy

Giving too many fluids at once can be a medical catastrophe, overloading the circulatory system and the heart.

If you need to give fluids todayso you can have help from your husband just give the 30ccs that the doctor told you to give.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

Giving too many fluids at once can be a medical catastrophe, overloading the circulatory system and the heart.

There's irony in that fact: Blood work seems to fail so many buns until it's too late. So an underlying problem can go undetected even with the proper tests run, and, thus, sub-Qs could still pose a problem. Who knows anymore? :? All I know is that previous blood work has not revealed any heart-related issues. But I don't put much stock in blood work for rabbits anymore....

If you need to give fluids todayso you can have help from your husband just give the 30ccs that the doctor told you to give.

Again, I'm not even sure if they're necessary yet; she's still passing fecals (which, granted, are smaller/drierthan normal). The vet did suggest that I call her to ask if it seems like Emma needs fluids; being Sunday, I can't call her.

I gave her three consecutive Simethicone doses two days' ago, when she seemed to be lying oddly in her litter box. (I thought that she might be gassy/uncomfy.) Yesterday, she passed OK fecals. Today, well, you know....So I've given her three more doses of Simethicone today.

 

[Maureen Las]

Even if a healthy person or animal receives too muchIVfluid it still overloads the circulatory system and heart. It doesn't matter whether there is an existing heart problem or not .
You've done what you can for today so why don't you focus onsomething that is fun or relaxing ; if you have the snow like we do it will have to be inside the house

 

[JadeIcing]

I can not give you much when it comes to stasis, I have never had to deal with it as severe as you have. Hope I never do.

I can say this yes I have at times wondered if it would be best for Ringo to be PTS. Only because I was concerned with his safety, with his health.

Cost yea it can be much. I am sure that I could match my cost right up there with you if I tried. Shoot maybe even more. That is in a span of 3 years. Did I mention for 2 of those years I didn't work? I have found ways to cut cost. Getting meds a human pharmacy when possible. Making myself deal with injections. Playing until I figure things that work. Which I have to change every few weeks. Finding the cycle pattern. The triggers and so on for the bad times.

Yes it is a hard painful thing but I continue. That I went weeks with a couple hours sleep here and there? Did I mention I suffer from depression?Trust me I have hit lowbut I come up again.

I posted this about Ringo but I think it goes for any one who deals with what we have to deal with. I think it is important to keep in mind and in your heart. Though make some of it stasis instead of head-tilt.

ok. I put him before me. My pride, my heart, my pain, my time, my money goes second to anything that would make him better.

If you can't handle it anymore see if there is someone who is more financially able and emotionally able to. There are people who that is all they take in. All my fosters had one issue or another because I knew not everyone can handle that. I know and understand not everyone can deal with things of this nature. Shoot I have at times taken friends animals who can not care for their sick animals. You also got hit hard with your first bunny. It wasn't like you had time to learn all this before it started.

In the end you know what is best. Just make sure you think it through. I recentlyhad tohave one of our familydogs pts and it was the most horribly painful thing I have been through. I have lost pets when Iwasn't home,in my arms but what we had to do for Sandy was heartbreaking. In her case wehad no choice she was already goingjust barely there.


Just think it through very carefully.

 

[JadeIcing]

I have to agree sometimes it is best to do something fun. Read a book. Throw a snowball. Make cookies. Just walk away and relax alittle.

 

[Maureen Las]

JadeIcing wrote:

I have to agree sometimes it is best to do something fun. Read a book. Throw a snowball. Make cookies. Just walk away and relax alittle.

When I have done every thing I can for Beau and he is medicated and resting I close the door because I know there is nothing else I can do until later.

We all need breaks...........

 

[polly]

I'll tell you what I told Flashy, and I'm being brutally honest here (so please don't flame me for it): I would be bitter as hell if someone else could take over and help Emma in some way that I could not. I've given up so much (including a writing business, that I'd tried to get off the ground when all of this began), that I would just taste bile if another human being could come along and find just the right solution for dealing with Emma's issues; it wouldn't seem fair--not after all that we've sacrificed in trying to find the issue and help her.

I am sorry Jenk but I find that appalling not fair to you maybe for Emma its probably one of the best things you could do. you talk about having her pts after this statement its like saying well i would rather kill an innocent rabbit than have someone else help her because I have spent so much money on her. Well thats animals for you. The rest of it sounds more like you trying to justify it to yourself. ANd i know that will probably anger you and you will say well u don't know etc well believe me I have had many problems and spent much much money on vets as have many others here. it cost me over $1000 dollars just to have mine vaccinated for Myxi then double it for the VHD and do that because its better for them

You have had some fantatsic suggestions through the number of threads you have put up on this issue but you are to scared to try them well put it another way you have seen the worst that can happen so what are you scared of? if you don't try the suggestions then you are gonna be stuck in the same situation you are in now. I do not understand why you are scared to add vanilla to water she is already having problems it could be enough to work and help you out if not that one of the other suggestions. WHy not try giving a bit of mint which is known to help digestion and stomach problems.

ALso I thinkFlashy is right if you are stressed the whole time then if you have a sensitive bun its gonna pick up on it and that is something only you can sort.

I am sorry if this post upsets you its not my aim at all I just feel that so many people have tried so hard to give you ideas yet all or most have been disregarded. A lot cheaper than vets!! I also wonder just how savvy your vets are to let you spend that much money but not be able to do much to help other than put your rabbit on a drug its becoming dependent on.

 

[Jenk]

JadeIcing wrote:

...I am sure that I could match my cost right up there with you if I tried. Shoot maybe even more. That is in a span of 3 years. Did I mention for 2 of those years I didn't work? I have found ways to cut cost. Getting meds a human pharmacy when possible. Making myself deal with injections. Playing until I figure things that work. Which I have to change every few weeks. Finding the cycle pattern. The triggers and so on for the bad times.

What's hard is shouldering this issue myself; my husband does nothing with the rabbits' diets (nor really with their vet visits). I've made 50+ vet visits in one year's time and am just spent (on so many levels.)

I would have (somewhat) less issue about spending $8K over the course of three years' than over the course of 14 months'. (That figure includes our cat's medical mystery, too.)

Yes it is a hard painful thing but I continue. That I went weeks with a couple hours sleep here and there? Did I mention I suffer from depression?Trust me I have hit lowbut I come up again.

Due to being home so long (and focusing on bun-related issues), I, too, suffer from depression. It's also strongly suspected that I have Fibromyalgia (a symptom of which is anxiety, although my upbringing brought on anxiety anyway); but I've not gone in for the necessaryblood work in order tosave money forwhatever animal health issue arises. And, thinking on it now, that's just nuts. We humansshouldn't live like slaves for the sake of affording veterinary care. It just isn't right. (I've had equally-loving animal owners tell me as much.)

I no longer think it noble to give up everything in order to make animals comfy/happy, when the humans are stressed/miserable. It just seems VERY out of balance and unhealthy on a number of levels....

ok. I put him before me. My pride, my heart, my pain, my time, my money goes second to anything that would make him better.

Again, read my point stated above. There comes a point when I think it just foolish to financially flounder for the sake of treating an animal, when the humans are suffering so much. We give too much at our own expense (and I don't just mean financially). I'm tired of EVERYTHING being about animals' issues and NOTHING being for us humans. (Again, I've been skipping medical care for myself, even though my symptoms could indicate something even more serious than Fibromyalgia.)

And did I forget to mention that something expensive just broke on my hubby's truck? We expect it to be a minimum of $1,500 to fix. (Tomorrow, we'll know for sure.)

If you can't handle it anymore see if there is someone who is more financially able and emotionally able to. There are people who that is all they take in. All my fosters had one issue or another because I knew not everyone can handle that. I know and understand not everyone can deal with things of this nature. Shoot I have at times taken friends animals who can not care for their sick animals. You also got hit hard with your first bunny. It wasn't like you had time to learn all this before it started.

Again, I can't stand the thought of someone else taking over and finding a solution (and, thus, having a happy life with Emma). It just wouldn't be fair, after all that we've sacrificed. I'm sorry, but it isn't. Besides, if someone else hit upon an answer, I'd then want her back 'cause I'd know what works. But I doubt that the person would give her back. Sorry, I can't do it.

In the end you know what is best. Just make sure you think it through. I recentlyhad tohave one of our familydogs pts and it was the most horribly painful thing I have been through. I have lost pets when Iwasn't home,in my arms but what we had to do for Sandy was heartbreaking. In her case wehad no choice she was already goingjust barely there.

I've been through both scenarios: Having an animal die suddenly in my hands and twice having to decide to euthanize (the first time when I was just 16-years-old). It's never an easy/happy decision, I know.

I promise to continue to think things through.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

JadeIcing wrote:

I have to agree sometimes it is best to do something fun. Read a book. Throw a snowball. Make cookies. Just walk away and relax alittle.

When I have done every thing I can for Beau and he is medicated and resting I close the door because I know there is nothing else I can do until later.

We all need breaks...........

I think that I'm all cried-out for the day (maybe, hopefully). Emma has three doses of Simethicone in her system and is sleeping, as are the other two bunners. I've only been in her room to feed her greens and give her gas-meds. today; I'm reallytrying to not over-do the visits.

I will observe how her fecals look when she's out for playtime tonight. If they're still small/dry (or...*gulp*...non-existent), I'll have my hubby help me give her 30 cc's of sub-Qs this evening and call the vet tomorrow for further instruction.