Starting to Show, Possibly Founding a Rabbitry

[Cait]

Hey there! I am new here, and I joinedpartially because I am looking into showing rabbits, and in turn that basically implies a rabbitry, even if its just a small one. I want to focus on Polish, as while I like the Nethies, I dislike the short stubby ears... Besides, a Polish *looks* much like a Netherland but with the ears I adore. I am still in the planning process of all of it; I have yet to join any rabbit clubs, although I am in July.I also plan to attend an ARBA show in Charleston, to see examples of the breed and to get a feel for shows.

I do have some questions. They seem rather basic, but I don't know the answers, so I have to ask, LOL.

1) How on earth do you register a rabbit? I know you must be a member of a club. Then someone (I have no clue who) looks at the rabbit and its pedigree, declares it free from faults and all that, but is that it? I know it must have a pedigree to be registered.

2) Tatooing... Who does that, and what is usually the "code" for the tatoo? From what I understand, you just pick whatever, as its mostly for use inside your rabbitry. What happens if another rabbit at a show has the same tatoo number, though?

3) Why can't rabbits be altered if they are for show? I'm not sure some ribbons and rossettes are worth the quality of life of my rabbits. Are there any clubs who allow altered rabbits to compete?

4) Whats the recommended route for newbies like me? Buy a registered jr doe or buck and run with it, or breed your own?

5) Are there any good rabbit gentetic sites out there? This is the part that concerns me most, as I have no clue about the genotypes of rabbit colors. I've peered at a few sites, and it *seems* relatively simple, but it IS genetics, and I can't remember genetics with anything ever being easy. What are some of the basic colors, something simple? I was leaning towards blues and chocolates, but again, I have no clue about the complexity of the genes behind them.

6) Is there anything I should know specifically about rabbit shows in general? What are some faux pas at shows? Who handles the rabbits for showing; you or the judge?

7) It seems really hard to break into reputable breeder circles and shows... Am I correct in assuming so? Is it better to have a mentor? (Speaking of which, anyone want to be my mentor? Ha ha )

That's about all I can think of ATM... When I start getting into showing depends onif I move within the next few months (plausable) or stay here for yet another year. If I do not move, I'd likely buy a registered rabbit and show it, as I wouldn't have proper space for a rabbitry, also it wouldn't be fair on the bunns as I'd just be moving once I was getting a general hang of things.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks to all who take the time to read it and/or reply.

 

[pamnock]

Cait wrote:

Whew! Lots of questions LOL I really think Polish are a good breed to begin with. I'm an ARBA judge, member of many specialty clubs and secretary of a regional Holland Lop club as well as a director in a regional Dwarf Hotot club.



1) How on earth do you register a rabbit? I know you must be a member of a club. Then someone (I have no clue who) looks at the rabbit and its pedigree, declares it free from faults and all that, but is that it? I know it must have a pedigree to be registered. You must be an ARBA member to register a rabbit. The rabbit must have a complete pedigree, be at least 6 months of age and have no disqualifications. Registrars are generally available at shows, my daughter (also a registrar) and myself do registrations from our home (all judges must also maintain their registrar's license).

2) Tatooing... Who does that, and what is usually the "code" for the tattoo? From what I understand, you just pick whatever, as its mostly for use inside your rabbitry. What happens if another rabbit at a show has the same tattoo number, though? Breeder's tattoos are in the left ear. You can use any numbering or lettering system of your choice.

3) Why can't rabbits be altered if they are for show? I'm not sure some ribbons and rossettes are worth the quality of life of my rabbits. Are there any clubs who allow altered rabbits to compete? ARBA shows do not allow altered rabbits to compete.

4) Whats the recommended route for newbies like me? Buy a registered jr doe or buck and run with it, or breed your own? I advise buying a trio (juniors can't be registered), but do look for good quality stock. You can ask a registrar or judge at a show to evaluate the quality of an animal that you are interested in. Newbies beware! They often fall prey to unethical breeders.

5) Are there any good rabbit genetic sites out there? This is the part that concerns me most, as I have no clue about the genotypes of rabbit colors. I've peered at a few sites, and it *seems* relatively simple, but it IS genetics, and I can't remember genetics with anything ever being easy. What are some of the basic colors, something simple? I was leaning towards blues and chocolates, but again, I have no clue about the complexity of the genes behind them. I have some genetics info on my site http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/

6) Is there anything I should know specifically about rabbit shows in general? What are some faux pas at shows? Who handles the rabbits for showing; you or the judge? The judge evaluates the rabbits on the table. Distracting the judge or attempting to influence the judge is against the rules. Best advise - stand quietly and listen : ) Do not question the judge during actual judging.

7) It seems really hard to break into reputable breeder circles and shows... Am I correct in assuming so? Is it better to have a mentor? (Speaking of which, anyone want to be my mentor? Ha ha ) It can be very difficult to get started.
A mentor can be of immense help.

Pam

 

[Cait]

Thank you, Pam!! You have lots of good info, and I will be checking out your site, too. I need all the help I can get! ARBA is about the only clubI hear of... Then they have the branches for the different breeds, I like that about them. Its not against any rules to belong to more than one club, is it? Also, how influential are clubs outside of showing?

I have most of the basics down, rabbit care, grooming, breeding. I breed hamsters, but I've also had litters of mice and right now I actually have a litter of rats. So I'm not new to the breeding aspect, mostly I need to get genetics down, also read up on rabbit specific disease/genetic defects.

Thanks again for your time!

 

[pamnock]

ARBA is the main club http://www.arba.net/so I recommend starting there. The guidebook you'll receive is well worth the cost of membership. You'll also receive the Domestic Rabbits publication as well as a year book that lists all the specialty clubs. The year book also contains ARBA rules.

After ARBA, I recommend joining the national club of the breed you are most interested in. There are also regional, state and local clubs.

There is no limit on how many clubs you can be a member of. Members benefit by earning sweepstakes points at shows they attend that sanction their breeds.



Pam

 

[Cait]

Cool! Yep, the ARBA was the one I was planning on joining, then joining a Polish rabbit club. I saw all the benefits, and they are having a show around here soon, so I definatly want to be a member by then.

 

[SunnieBunnie Rabbitry]

:hello:welcome1

Cait, It's soooo wonderful to see an obviously well educated person consider the wonderful world of rabbit exhibition - aka, the Rabbit-Habbit ...LOL. I can't tell you enough how wonderful it is to hear you are doing all this research ahead of time!:highfive:

Iwas in your shoesa few years back. After some figuring things out on my own,asking questions, andtrial & error, I'm happy to say things are moving along very well. I'm a self-taught genetics "guru", as my close breeder friends call me. :lol:

BTW, There are also some wonderful threads here in relation to genetics... the first being the Color Geneticsthread (It's linked foreasy access).

I would highly suggest attending a localARBA show... and while you're there, watch yourpotential breed as they're being judged. Most times they will post at the tables which judge will be judging which breeds and in which order - use this to your advantage. Walk the tables and find the breed you're interested in watching... then BEFORE the judge begins to judge that breed, introduce yourself and let him/her know that you are interested in showing/breeding that breed andif there's anything of interest / Pro's and Con's exhibited on the show table that day - you would like to see ifyou could. Also when they're commenting on "Finished Coat", "Baby Coat", "Slipping Coat"... ask (after the class is done being judged) if you could feel those coats to get a good idea of what they're looking for. You would be amazed on how many judges will be willing to lift a rabbit over the table for you to get a good look at that "Superb Color" or "Interesting Oddity". They tend to be somewhat lenient with you - especially if you introduce yourself ahead of time - when you ask questions as the classes are done being judged. After all, they want to see good animals on the tables! How else will they be determined if questions aren't asked!

Really though, Welcome! And I hope your endeavors are all that you hope to accomplish!



~Sunshine

 

[Cait]

Soooooo much to learn! But I am trying, and I don't want to rush in to anything. I have a year to prepare, depending if I move. I can usually pick up things rather quickly... I'm glad to see the colors I want to focus on are "basic", LOL. (Chocolate and blue selfs.) Makes it easier for moi in the long run.

I will certainly do that when I attend a show! I didn't know you could talk to the judges any before hand. Hopefully they don't say "Little girl, run along now and play with your bunnies" or write me off. Well I guess 17 isn't little girl anymore, but still. I want to learn as much as a can before getting into this. I'll have to print this put so I can remember what to ask about, and of course print out the genetics info. The way you guys explain it by breaking down each gene REALLY helps!

Lets see ifI learned anything yet:

Code for chocolate: aa(self)bb(chocolate part!!)C*(full color, but what about the *? is it a C or a c or just blank?)D*(intense/full color, no dilution. How do I know if the rabbit is heterozygous or homozygous for the gene, as with C?)E*(color pigment extension.. I don't really understand what this gene does except lightens the hair shafts, but in chocolate you want even tone so I assume its thenormal E)

in short: aabbC*D*E*

Is that about right? DoI add the English spotting gene, or leave it off as its obvious from the code so far its a self rabbit?

Again, I just want to thank you all again for helping me and being patient while I learn.

 

[pamnock]

You got it! And yes, we generally leave off english spotting, dutch, silver, wideband, ddwarfing and fur type when writing out the genotype.

Pam

 

[Cait]

Yay!!

So from reading the standard for a color, you can figure out the basic genotype of the animal... Cool beans. Thenwith test breedings you can figure out what, if anything else, the rabbit carries.Its the whatxwhat=what that always gets me, so back to reading.

Hmm ok question. Lets say you have a blue tort. You want more blue torts. How on earth do you get that ee gene instead of E (which is for Blue)? Do you have to find another blue tort? Or, could you breed a blue tort to a blue, cross one back to the blue tort, and hope the offspring from that pairing get an e from the blue (that it should/might carry)? Is that done in rabbits? How close is too close? Take that example above, if one did breed father (lets say he's the blue tort ee) to daughter (blue, carries the e gene, though, so would be Ee) lets say you get lucky, and3 out of the 4 kits are blue torts. Then you outcross from there, one of those3 kits to a blue.

Ok in other words, what way does one go about bringing recessives out w/o direct linebreeding (inbreeding, whatever you want to call it) ? Or is direct (but then outcrossed) line breeding ok as long as you outcross from then on with those kits?

Umm... Did that make any sense? *blush*

 

[pamnock]

Like putting puzzle pieces together -- you just have to get the right pieces to match up



Pam

 

[SunnieBunnie Rabbitry]

Cait wrote:

Hmm ok question. Lets say you have a blue tort. You want more blue torts. How on earth do you get that ee gene instead of E (which is for Blue)? Do you have to find another blue tort? Or, could you breed a blue tort to a blue, cross one back to the blue tort, and hope the offspring from that pairing get an e from the blue (that it should/might carry)? Is that done in rabbits? How close is too close? Take that example above, if one did breed father (lets say he's the blue tort ee) to daughter (blue, carries the e gene, though, so would be Ee) lets say you get lucky, and3 out of the 4 kits are blue torts. Then you outcross from there, one of those3 kits to a blue.

:shock:Geez Girl! You catch on QUICK!!! :colors:

You answered your own question on that one! Way To Go! :bunnydance:

Cait wrote:

Is that about right? DoI add the English spotting gene, or leave it off as its obvious from the code so far its a self rabbit?

The only time we typically would include the English Spotting gene is when we're referring to Brokens. In other words/terms:

Chocolate = aabbC_D_E_

Broken Chocolate = aabbC_D_E_Enen

 

[Cait]

LOL, thanks. I'm really into hamster genetics, so rabbit genetics are a bit easier to learn with a bit of practice. I like it a lot! Of course, campbell's only have 4 main color genes and you just mix those four to get the rest of the colors which are combinations of the single gene colors. But I'm liking rabbit genetics over mouse genetics... Now THAT is a whole nother kettle of fish.

 

[flemishr2cool]

Hey Cait, glad to hear you want to join the wonderfull world of rabbit showing newbies are always welcome. It sounds like you have already done a LOT of researching which is great! The important thing to understand about showing rabbits is that rabbits are judged as a livestock animal. The are judged on whether they would be a good meat rabbit and if they would have a good quality pelt. A lot of people think rabbits are judged on some level of conformation like dog judging. You had asked why they can't be spayed or neutered but if you spayed or neutered a livestock animal you would not be able to pass on quality genes or "breed a better rabbit" which is what the show world is all about.

Your best bet is too just attend a few shows and ask questions, talk to the judges before and after the are judging the rabbits, it is considered rude to disrupt them while they are examing rabbits and giving comments on them.

Talk to breeders and get their opinions on the different breeds. See if you meet any breeders that have stock you really like, andcollect lots of rabbitry business cards so you can contact everyone later.

There will be tons of rabbits for sale so don't be tempted toby one or two, if you plan on having a small herd youwill need to be very picky, so you shouldreally research the breedsyou like andtalk to the breeders and let them know you are new and you need adviceon what a good rabbit is BEFORE you spend money anda rabbit that may not be a good buy.

Rabbit shows are very laid back, just show up around 8 or 9 and watch and take notes, try to talk to breeders when they are not rushing rabbits to the tables

Julia

 

[Cait]

Thank you for all the advice, Julia! Any input on this is great, I really want to do this right. I will be sure to talk to every person I can, for as long as I can be tolerated, LOL. I don't think I will be purchasing any rabbits right away, although I am discussing it with my mother more in depth now and hoping she can see what this means to me and all of that. I'd certainly want to know what I was looking for and not just say hey, that one's cute, lets get that one.

I've been talking to some other breeders, and they say that the rate of reproductive cancers (in female rabbits atleast) are a lot lower than the 80% that is usually thrown around. That puts my mind at rest a bit about it. What are your guys' opinions on this?

 

[pamnock]

Studies never have stated the often misquoted rate of uterine cancer at 80%. It is uterine "tumors" that are very common in rabbits -- not all are cancerous. Uterine tumors are indeed very common, especially in rabbits over 4 years of age.

Pam

 

[Cait]

Oho, I see! So its just a skewed figure, I get it. These tumors can be removed relatively easily, or is it something where once the doe gets one, she's likely to have to get spayed to prevent future ones? Then what, she's retired and rehomed to a pet home? That would make more sense, yes.

 

[pamnock]

If a tumor is found, the doe is generally spayed to prevent any further health problems.

Pam

 

[Cait]

Oh, ok! I thought that would be the norm, and certainly what I would do. I think what I plan on doing is having a few breeders, say, 3-4, then quality kits are kept for showing/future breeders. Remaining kits are rehomed, and if any "special" ones come my way that aren't up to showing par, they can still be pets, but altered. Thats going to be my problem, I'll end up keeping more pet ones than show ones, LOL.

How many litters is the norm for a doe to have before she is retired? When she is retired, is it worthwhile to have her spayed?

Also... What are some situations where ethics come into play when breeding rabbits? (Such as culling, things like that.)

 

[pamnock]

Does can be bred an average of 4 times a year. We generally retire our girls by the time they reach 2 years of age.

You will need to set goals and determine in advance how you will handle situations where rabbits are sick, deformed, have congenital defects or require long-term health care. Vet costs can be an issue which also need to be taken into consideration.

Pam

 

[TinysMom]

Hi! Welcome to the board - I've been away for three weeks and this is the first thread I'm reading...it feels nice to be back online.

First a quick question for Pam - and maybe this should go in the health area - but how can you tell if a doe has a uterine tumor? Symptoms?

Secondly - Cait - you're learning a lot and very quickly! I really appreciate it when people are willing to learn and not just stumble along...you should do very well in the rabbit world.

I wanted to point out that if I was buying a trio, I might want to buy them from the same breeder (Pam and others might have different input on that). I breed lionheads and I have found that some bloodlines don't do as well when bred to some others - but then again - lionheads can be a bit more complicated due to the manes, etc. But if I were starting out all over again - I'd try to buy the best trio I could afford from the best breeder that had what I wanted. I also would want to try and buy from a breeder who took the time to answer my questions and be helpful - that way - I would hopefully be able to get more advice in the future, etc.

Well - I had better close this as I have SOOO much to do. I really shouldn't even be on the boards yet as I have to get laundry done, etc. :shock:

But I want to congratulate you on your decision to work with rabbits - it can be very fulfilling....

Peg