Some Questions about developing your own lines of rabbits...

[TinysMom]

I was talking to Gail Gibbons (COD holder for lionheads w/ ARBA) earlier this week and we were talking about the mistakes I'd made early on as a breeder (even though Gail had warned me I was making mistakes). One of the mistakes we were talking about was getting rabbits from here and there and oh...here's another cute one...and then breeding them all together...it is a common mistake that many breeders make early on.

I told her that I probably should have started with buying three rabbits as is often recommended...two does and a buck.

Gail then said that no - that would not be the way to go if you wanted to develop a line of your own with three rabbits. She stated that a breeder should get two bucks and a doe...breed the doe to buck A....from that litter take the best female and breed her back to her father while you breed mama back to buck B. Continue crossing the lines from the offspring...(I drew it out to see how it would look...but it is hard to post here).

Of course - I think it would be even more ideal if you had TWO does and TWO bucks to start with.

But as I thought about it - I wondered....at what point would the lines become too inbred?

Wouldn't you have to bring a third bloodline into the breeding at some point?

Just curious....things like this fascinate me....

 

[murph72]

Peg,

I was taught to do something similar to what you are saying. I was also told to add another "bloodline" to the mix at about the third generation. That way the lines are not too inbred. Also, at that point you can see what the line you are working with is missing and then look for another bun to add that has what is missing.

I too bought bunnies due to how cute they were in the beginning. I'm also guilty of playing with color. I admittedly picked up a chocolate Holland and a BEW Holland because I want to try to better those two colors. They just are lacking the type. I want to breed them into some of my really typey buns and see what I get from it.

Dyan

 

[TinysMom]

murph72 wrote:

Peg,

I was taught to do something similar to what you are saying. I was also told to add another "bloodline" to the mix at about the third generation. That way the lines are not too inbred. Also, at that point you can see what the line you are working with is missing and then look for another bun to add that has what is missing.

I too bought bunnies due to how cute they were in the beginning. I'm also guilty of playing with color. I admittedly picked up a chocolate Holland and a BEW Holland because I want to try to better those two colors. They just are lacking the type. I want to breed them into some of my really typey buns and see what I get from it.

Dyan

Would you get another bloodline from the same breeder (if they had different bloodlines) or from a different breeder?

This is all so fascinating to me because its the way I WISH I'd done it years ago...

 

[pamnock]

I have a line breeding chart on my site http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/LineBreedingChart.html

It illustrates adding another line (in green).

Pam

 

[TinysMom]

Pam - would you recommend someone start their own lines that way?

Is that how you started your lines?

 

[Flashy]

This is REALLY fascinating!

 

[whaleyk98]

I am in this sort of situation now and this is very valuable info. I have just purchased 5 buns from a breeder in the state below me and in the next few months I am getting 3 more from Washington which is across the country...obviously different lines from each. These are going to be the buns of my foundation stock but did I do the right thing? Im worried now. Did I get too many too fast? Too many lines at once? I went to Washington because that breeder had the rare colors that I was looking for and she is very reputable. Ive got to admit that I am just starting to understand things and am learning a lot along the way...which is I guess hoe all good breeders start. Thanks for starting this topic Peg as I will be keeping an eye on the responses. I hope to learn a lot more from this.=)

 

[TinysMom]

I have a few more questions here for Pam and others.

If you were going to do this - I know you want to get the VERY BEST stock you can - especially in your bucks.

Would you go with a younger buck (or doe even) - or would you be willing to buy a buck or doe that the breeder was retiring (and keeping offspring from) - since you could see what they produced?

Also - would you let the breeder (if they were a well-known breeder) pick your first rabbits? Or would you want to pick them yourself?

 

[murph72]

Peg,

I think it depends what you're looking for and what you can get. I like to choose younger stock just because I personally think they do better adapting to a new environment. I also want to use it to breed for a few generations, so I wouldn't want it to be too old when I got it or it wouldn't be useful to me.

I trust certain breeders to pick rabbits for me if I tell them what I'm looking for. The better breeders will often have their recommendations and some others to choose from...we all like choices. In the end, I have been known to usually agree with the breeder on their choices.

As far as adding to the line, it depends what you can find. I'm looking for a different line, so if that same breeder has a new line they can give me (because they're also buying new stock to add to their line) then I might go with them. I think we all get our "favorite breeders" we like to buy from, which is fine as long as they have what we are looking for. What I'm mainly concerned with is if the addition has characteristics that I feel I'm needing in my own herd. Before picking the addition you really need to take a hard look at your herds' faults to see what areas you could improve on the most. It's like a puzzle almost.

Pam, thanks for the chart. I had another one that was similar, but not in color, nor with as good of an explanation. I think yours is much better so I added it to my favorites.

 

[paul2641]

This is so cool, I will keep in mind now if I ever want to start breeding to get 2 bucks and 1 doe!

 

[TinysMom]

whaleyk98 wrote:

I am in this sort of situation now and this is very valuable info. I have just purchased 5 buns from a breeder in the state below me and in the next few months I am getting 3 more from Washington which is across the country...obviously different lines from each. These are going to be the buns of my foundation stock but did I do the right thing? Im worried now. Did I get too many too fast? Too many lines at once? I went to Washington because that breeder had the rare colors that I was looking for and she is very reputable. Ive got to admit that I am just starting to understand things and am learning a lot along the way...which is I guess hoe all good breeders start. Thanks for starting this topic Peg as I will be keeping an eye on the responses. I hope to learn a lot more from this.=)

Kate - can I ask you some questions?

First of all - can I ask what color(s) you are working on and if you studied the breed standard at all before buying the rabbits?

Also - I know you mentioned why you went with one breeder....but why did you choose the first breeder?

Here was what I did that was ALL WRONG and I could kick myself for it. (By the way - Gail Gibbons did tell me that at some point I would kick myself for my choices...she was so right...).

Before we went to Lionhead Nationals I checked the websites of every breeder when they posted their listings. I think I bought 15 or so rabbits from 10 or 12 breeders...I don't remember exactly.

One doe - Minnie Pearl (a frosted pearl) - I bought mainly because she'd won BOB or BOSB under Pam Nock....bad bad reason.

I bought some other rabbits because they were broken and I didn't care so much about type. The other rabbits I did study type - but I also depended too much on the bloodlines.

Two of the well-known lionhead bucks were Blue Boy (who was known for keeping his mane and producing offspring who kept their mane) and FireBear - who produced very type-y rabbits. Unfortunately - their weakness was that they didn't keep their manes really well.

My plan was to breed FireBear offspring to Blue Boy offspring to get typey rabbits that kept their mane (and it was starting to work too...).

But what I learned was that just because a rabbit had FireBear in the pedigree...didn't mean diddly. What I mean is...the offspring of Firebear could have been bred to a crappy rabbit (show-quality wise) and wound up producing rabbits that weren't that great - in spite of Firebear being on the pedigree.

So I guess my question to you is....when you bought each of your rabbits...did you have a purpose in mind? Like certain strengths in that line? Did the breeder help you pick your rabbits - or did you pick them yourself?

Also - do you plan to show your rabbits or sell them as show rabbits?

I'm really enjoying this thread.

I do see myself breeding again some day....I know the breed and I know the color and I even know the breeder I want to get my foundation stock from. I'm already doing the research and planning my limits for quantity of rabbits, etc.

But my numbers have to go down from where they are now. Art & I have agreed on what I have to get to in order to breed again....so I know I'm not looking at the immediate future...

 

[TinysMom]

paul2641 wrote:

This is so cool, I will keep in mind now if I ever want to start breeding to get 2 bucks and 1 doe!

Well - its about more than just getting 2 bucks and a doe. You need them to be compatible for type, etc - and not too close together as far as siblings, etc. as you don't want to get too inbred.

 

[TinysMom]

murph72 wrote:

Peg,

I think it depends what you're looking for and what you can get. I like to choose younger stock just because I personally think they do better adapting to a new environment. I also want to use it to breed for a few generations, so I wouldn't want it to be too old when I got it or it wouldn't be useful to me.

I trust certain breeders to pick rabbits for me if I tell them what I'm looking for. The better breeders will often have their recommendations and some others to choose from...we all like choices. In the end, I have been known to usually agree with the breeder on their choices.

As far as adding to the line, it depends what you can find. I'm looking for a different line, so if that same breeder has a new line they can give me (because they're also buying new stock to add to their line) then I might go with them. I think we all get our "favorite breeders" we like to buy from, which is fine as long as they have what we are looking for. What I'm mainly concerned with is if the addition has characteristics that I feel I'm needing in my own herd. Before picking the addition you really need to take a hard look at your herds' faults to see what areas you could improve on the most. It's like a puzzle almost.

Pam, thanks for the chart. I had another one that was similar, but not in color, nor with as good of an explanation. I think yours is much better so I added it to my favorites.

I guess I was thinking ... what if a breeder is wanting to retire a buck that is a couple of years old to keep one of his sons? I mean - that way you could see what he had produced...and know he DOES produce.

I agree with you that it is important to look at your herd and really see what their faults were. I realized that my rabbits had great type and color - but they didn't have the smaller heads and smaller bodies that are becoming more popular with lionheads. I brought in some from Nita & Kaela Shannon from Legendary Lionheads - and WOW - what an improvement I saw in my next litters. It was amazing how much that helped.

I love the chart Pam showed...I'm trying to think of how to do it if I wound up buying 2 bucks and 2 does for my foundation stock.

 

[whaleyk98]

TinysMom wrote:

whaleyk98 wrote:

I am in this sort of situation now and this is very valuable info. I have just purchased 5 buns from a breeder in the state below me and in the next few months I am getting 3 more from Washington which is across the country...obviously different lines from each. These are going to be the buns of my foundation stock but did I do the right thing? Im worried now. Did I get too many too fast? Too many lines at once? I went to Washington because that breeder had the rare colors that I was looking for and she is very reputable. Ive got to admit that I am just starting to understand things and am learning a lot along the way...which is I guess hoe all good breeders start. Thanks for starting this topic Peg as I will be keeping an eye on the responses. I hope to learn a lot more from this.=)

Kate - can I ask you some questions?

First of all - can I ask what color(s) you are working on and if you studied the breed standard at all before buying the rabbits?

I havent really picked a color or colors that I want to work on specifically. I raise ELs and Im in love with the torts...especially blues and I really like the pointeds like sable point and smoked peral points. I have been studying the standard but being so new to the "rabbit scene" and being almost 30, things are still new and I feel like I should have started while I was younger. Im still learning what certain things look like, pinched loins for example. Its still a major learning process for me.

Also - I know you mentioned why you went with one breeder....but why did you choose the first breeder?

I went with the first breeder actually for the reason that she was sort of near me. I am having an awful time finding a breeder that is semi close to me. She brought me up a bunch of buns to choose from and showed me what I should be looking for.

Here was what I did that was ALL WRONG and I could kick myself for it. (By the way - Gail Gibbons did tell me that at some point I would kick myself for my choices...she was so right...).

Before we went to Lionhead Nationals I checked the websites of every breeder when they posted their listings. I think I bought 15 or so rabbits from 10 or 12 breeders...I don't remember exactly.

This is my downfall as well becauseI check everyones site to see what they have available and its like being in a candy store. I didnt know you werent supposed to "get one from everyone". I honestly didnt know what I was supposed to be doing. I was just looking for great stock to start with.

One doe - Minnie Pearl (a frosted pearl) - I bought mainly because she'd won BOB or BOSB under Pam Nock....bad bad reason.

I too chose a buck from this breeder as he has won 2 legs already so I figured he would be a great asset to my herd.

I bought some other rabbits because they were broken and I didn't care so much about type. The other rabbits I did study type - but I also depended too much on the bloodlines.

Me as well. I look at the lines and how the breeder is doing at the shows and since I see myself as being "type blind" right now as I am still learning what to look for, I just assume that if the lines are there than its a good rabbit. I trust the breeder too much I think instead of myself.

Two of the well-known lionhead bucks were Blue Boy (who was known for keeping his mane and producing offspring who kept their mane) and FireBear - who produced very type-y rabbits. Unfortunately - their weakness was that they didn't keep their manes really well.

My plan was to breed FireBear offspring to Blue Boy offspring to get typey rabbits that kept their mane (and it was starting to work too...).

But what I learned was that just because a rabbit had FireBear in the pedigree...didn't mean diddly. What I mean is...the offspring of Firebear could have been bred to a crappy rabbit (show-quality wise) and wound up producing rabbits that weren't that great - in spite of Firebear being on the pedigree.

So I guess my question to you is....when you bought each of your rabbits...did you have a purpose in mind?The only purpose I thought of was to get goos stock....what that meant to me Im not too sure.Like certain strengths in that line? Did the breeder help you pick your rabbits - or did you pick them yourself? The first breeder helped by showing me what to look for, and the one in Washington, I told her whatI wanted and she sort of picked for me. I wanted her to though. I trust breeders opinions as Im still learning.

Also - do you plan to show your rabbits or sell them as show rabbits?

I do want to show...very badly. Im just trying to figure out how to jump into the show scene. Im not a very outgoing person so it takes alot to go someplace where I dont know what the heck Im doing. It sounds like so much fun though, and I know its a very important step if Im going to be a serious breeder of ELs.

I'm really enjoying this thread.

I do see myself breeding again some day....I know the breed and I know the color and I even know the breeder I want to get my foundation stock from. I'm already doing the research and planning my limits for quantity of rabbits, etc.

But my numbers have to go down from where they are now. Art & I have agreed on what I have to get to in order to breed again....so I know I'm not looking at the immediate future...

I too have to keep my numbers low and this is why its very crucial to me to have great rabbits to start with. I wish they had a what to do to get started properly book. =(
I love this forum as I have learned so much already but it just makes things easier if it was shown to you in person and I dont have that luxury unfortunately.

 

[TinysMom]

Kate - can you share what colors you have and if it is a buck or doe?

 

[polly]

Good thread Peg

When we wanted to choose a colour we looked at what we already had in our shed. That was Jin our chinchilla coloured netherland dwarf. So I went to a good friend wo had been showing a while and said who is the top man in the UK for chin nethies and she gave me my breeders name. We contacted him and waited 6 months for him to have rabbits ready to pass on.

We went with a trio in mind 2 does and a buck and came back with just 1 extra buck lol! not bad for us!

We were given around 4 or 5 bucks to choose from which were younger bucks all on 2008 rings we were also told not to show him till around 18 months for him to come into himself. The does we purchased were on an 06 ring and 08 ring. The second buck we chose was one he showed us for body type however he would not breed/show him as he will not hold his ears together. ( fyi our standard states the ears should be straight and 2" or less no mention of them holding them together )

We took him as his body type is phenominal. He is now a champion after being shown he is on an 06 ring. His sire was also BOB bradford 05 which is our biggest show. the other buck comes from the 08 bradford best chin nethie.
the older doe was from same line as Yoda the 06 rung buck and the younbger doe is a differnet line.

I bred the older doe and buck together and got a doe which I have kept and sold on the older doe. Mimi was the daughter of this pair and as she stayed relatively small I did not want to put her back to her father for her first litter due to the chance of stuck kits so I mated her to Jin. of which I have kept on 2 kits for their banding.
I have bnow mated her back to her dad for her second litter as she had 5 in the first lol!! she is due start of august.

The second doe I bought Padamae has been mated to the 08 buck I bought. she gave me a litter fo 3 which were 1 blue fox 1 black fox and 1 squirrel. so I now he carries as does she squirrel which is dilute chin and fox handy as blue is my fave colour so I plan to offshoot a fox line which are also useful to put back into the chin line to improve banding. The squirrel is going for a spay next month and is going to a fab pet home. all 3 were does.

next litter I mated her to the 06 buck Yoda and got 2 chins of which I have kept a doe. her daughter the black fox I have kept a chin buck who is stunning and is going to be my show buck when he comes through his gawky stage.

we also went back to the breeder and I have a young 08 buck called Danny who comes off the same sire as Yoda (06 buck) who is now fit for showing.

gawd I hope all that makes sense to you. any questions please ask
the main reaosn we have kept Jin we mad ehim into a double champion and although type wise he does not compare to our newer chins his banding is excellent and we want to put that into the other chin line as the banding is poorer and lets it down on occasion for best of breeds

Edited to add: everyone we have spoken to said it is your own line once you show a rabbit from the litter that you have bred as obviously we will all make slightly differnet choices with the same rabbits

 

[whaleyk98]

I have 3 bucks, a black tort a fawn, and an opal. I have 2 does, a blue tort and a black tort. I am getting a show doe in a couple weeks who is a blue tort and I have on hold to bring back convention time in Nov, a tri, and a smoke pearl point or a sable point.

 

[TinysMom]

This is my based on my personal experience with lionheads and colors....ok? But I would not be breeding all of your bucks. They are from different color families than your does...

The black tort can be bred with both your blue tort and your black tort. But the other bucks will totally mess up your coloring because they are in the wrong color family.

I have to think about the rabbits you're bringing in - I think the smoke pearl point can go with one of the bucks but I can't figure out right off which one. The sable point should be bred to a tort and not the other bucks....the tri....hmmm...

I'll try to find some stuff on colors and post it later - gotta run out to get more rabbit food.

 

[whaleyk98]

Peg, I totally forgot to add my black buck. He is my favorite too. He is about 4 months old. So I have a total of 4 bucks right now.

As for the new buns, the tri and pointeds, Im not sure what sex they will be as they arent even born yet or have just been born. I do know that I have way too many bucks right now so I am leaning towards does if she has any. It is really confusing...and I know Im not the only person to have this problem....to figure out what color goes with what. I have done so much research on this topic that I have started writing it down in a journal,lol. There have been some really great works on this subject and you can bet that I have them all saved on my favorites!

 

[TinysMom]

I'm about to go ahead and start a topic on this....for all of our newer breeders. By no means am I an expert....but I think I can simplify it enough to make it fun...