Snowy's soft poops

[mouse_chalk]

Well, if you haven't seen my thread already over on the main forum, we adopted 2 Dwarf Lops yesterday, Barney and Snowy.

We gave them a small bit of carrot last night each (it was aVERY tinycarrot, half each), just as a treat to see how they did. They'd been fed vegetables before, although I'm not sure how often in the 3 months they were in the pet store, but we'd definately seen them have some carrot before.

Anyway, Snowy seems to have left a LOT of cecal piles on the floor of the cage- I realise they're probably bigger than I'm used to (only having small buns before now), but I saw her do some earlier and she didn't seem to have any interest in eating them.

The other things we've fed them are 2 half cups of pellets between them, and lots of timothy hay, and water. They've been eating it all fine so far...

Snowy has just turned 2, and as far as I'm aware she's not had this problem before- we honestly were in there saying hello to them every couple of days and their cage was fine, and the manager didn't report any problems...

Any ideas anyone? Is it just the carrot maybe, or the stress of moving?

Thanks!

Jen :bunnybutt:

 

[maherwoman]

Hey Sweetie!

What kind of food are they eating? Brand & type? Is it an alfalfa or a Timothy pellet?

How old are they, approximately?

Are they eating the same pellet food they were eating at the pet store? If not, did you gradually switch them (as in 1/4 new food to 3/4 old food first week, progressing by 1/4's each week until fully switched over)?

Are you feeding them anything in with their pellet food, like oats?

 

[mouse_chalk]

Ello!

It's a Pets At Home own-brand, it's 12% protein and 14% fibre. It's the same as they were being fed at the store so we got that yesterday when we bought them home, so that hasn't changed! (need to do some research into if that's an ok nutritional content though...) It doesn't say if it's alfalfa or timothy but I'm fairly sure it's timothy based, as it doesn't have that alfalfa smell? It's supposedly designed for adult rabbits...

Snowy was 2 last week, and Barney was 2 in June, but I don't think he's the one with the cecal problem. He's mostly been sat in the litter tray, and there's been no mess in there...

We've not given them any oats or anything, should we?

 

[maherwoman]

Hmm...ya know, I'm not totally sure on this one. The protein content isn't bad for the food. I don't know enough about that particular food to know it's quality.

I do know that this site says that pellet food should have at least 16% fiber, so they could probably use more fiber in their diet, but I'm no expert. (That site is really great to reference the percentages of things in your food with.)

No, don't give them oats...just wanted to be sure you weren't, as that could cause the excess cecals (it did with our Cuddles).

I'm sure someone will be by soon, though, that knows more than I do about this.

 

[mouse_chalk]

Yeah, I must admit, I didn't look at the nutritional content last night, so whenI read it today, I did a bit of a :scared:! But we had to take it as they were already on it, so couldn't upset them further by changing their food aswell, also it was a condition of the adoption that we take the same food that they were eating.

Looking at some of the info in the Bunny 101 forum, Burgess Supa Rabbit Excel seems to have a much higher fibre content, and is widely available over here, and is as cheap as the store's own stuff- so we'll look at switching to that soon I think!

I do find it a bit odd though how she's only just started having this problem but has been eating this food for at least 3 months? onder:

 

[Marietta]

Hallo, Jen!

What's Snowy's weight? The recommended (by HRS and other organisations) quantity of pellets is 1/4 cup of pellets per day (I devide it in 2 doses, morning and evening) per lbr. of rabbit's weight.

As far as the pellets' quality is concerned, it is suggested that a good quality pellet should have up to 14-15% protein, min. 18% fibre, less than 1% fat and 1-1.5% calcium. However, f you can find any pellet close to the above figures, don't abruptly stop giving the previous brand you feed them now. Gradually (over a period of at least 1 week) cut down the old pellets and little by little provide more of the new pellets. In this way, the flora of the gut will not be disturbed.

The carrot contains high sugar percentages, but the quantity you provided does not look like a lot... The stress of changing environment is certainly, as any other cause of stress, of big importance, but they'll get used to their new surroundings soon. Meantime, they need to be in a calm, quiet and stress-free environment, as much as this is possible.

Marietta

 

[tonyshuman]

i would guess it is the pellets. that seems like a lot of pellets, and the fiber/protein content of those pellets doesn't sound very good. not sure what a good brand of pellet in the UK is though! i'd reccomend going to 1/4c of pellets per 5lbs of bunny (like Marietta said), plus 1-2c veggies per day....

but then it could be stress too. i only see cecals from tony when he's stressed (after a long car ride, for instance), or i've been giving him too much pellets. :biggrin2:

 

[maherwoman]

Sweetie, don't feel bad...you were doing the right thing by keeping them on it for a couple weeks. It helps them adjust to their new home, by staying on the same food they're used to. If you find, after others' advice, that it's the food that's causing it, though, you might consider taking her off the pellet food for a few days, and just doing a high content of hay and water. Then slowly introducing the better type of pellets.

But, the suggestion on HOW MUCH they're getting is definitely something to keep in mind. I forgot about that (been stressin' about Maisie's spay), but Marietta and tonyshuman are right...sometimes even the best foods, when a bun gets more than their system can handle, cause excess cecals.

And I also go by 1/4c per 5lbs...but it all depends on the bun. Some buns need less, some a bit more...and it takes time to figure out the balance.

Like I said before, I'm quite distracted, so I'm sure others would do better with their advice...but I'll help as much as I can.

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

With them just coming to a new home yesterday, I would say that's what is causing it. A bit of stress from being in a new place. When I fostered Winston and Vega, they had that too for the first couple days, then it stopped. You might just wait another day or so and see if it does indeed, stop.

 

[mouse_chalk]

Thanks for all your replies!

I'm not sure how much they weigh- I think we'd struggle to pick them up (and stress them out- they still seem quite scared) to weigh them at the moment, but they are quite big... so would half a cup in total of pellets each over 24 hours be too much then?

Tbh we really werent sure how much to feed them last night but didnt want to give them greens (which make up a very large part of Mouse and Chalk's diet) as we didn't want to upset them too much! In fact, the reason they've had half a cup is because we wanted to make sure they were eating well, with the stress and everything :?Maybe we worried too much in the wrong direction! :?

I was wrong about the Burgess Supa Rabbit Excel, it's only got 16% fibre, but we've found online Science Selective which has 19%. It's not too expensive either. the Oxbow Bunny Basics T (only available online) has a really high fibre content, but is about 3x more expensive than all other brands!:shock:

Plus, even though the pellets aren't very good quality, they've been eating them with no apparent problems for the past 3 months, maybe even more. Which makes me more inclined to think it might be stress, not that I'm an expert on these things lol!

I think we might order some better pellets soon and gradually switch them over once they've had time to settle in... Do you think we'd be ok to start giving them some veggies, or should I steer clear for now?

There's been no more mess since about lunchtime though!

Thanks again!

Jen :rabbithop

 

[tonyshuman]

mouse_chalk wrote:

Plus, even though the pellets aren't very good quality, they've been eating them with no apparent problems for the past 3 months, maybe even more. Which makes me more inclined to think it might be stress,

that makes sense! it probably is best to keep them on the same diet for a little while--maybe a week or 2?

 

[maherwoman]

Yeah, from what you're saying, it does sound like stress...

Like tonyshuman said, just keep an eye on them.

Hugs to you all!

Rosie*

 

[mouse_chalk]

Good idea. We will change it, but not just yet, to avoid upsetting them, like you suggested, Tonyshuman!

I'll keep you all informed how she does.

Thanks for all your help people, especially you Rosie, with all you've had going on today!

 

[maherwoman]

Oh, you're so welcome, Hun...

I felt like I forgot so many things, hehe! But I'm glad you got the help ya needed!

:hug:

 

[NZminilops]

AngelnSnuffy wrote:

With them just coming to a new home yesterday, I would say that's what is causing it. A bit of stress from being in a new place. When I fostered Winston and Vega, they had that too for the first couple days, then it stopped. You might just wait another day or so and see if it does indeed, stop.

Smart thinking! I totally agree with this. Happens with pretty much every new bun that enters my home.

 

[ra7751]

Hi Jen,

In our rescue, we see lots of GI problems. In my opinion,your bunsare getting way too many pellets. We have a couple of Flemish in our sanctuary....one of them is nearly 14kg (30 pounds for those of us in the States) and he gets just over 1/8 cup of 16% protein pellets per day. We have several Hollands (our version of dwarf lops) that we actually count their pellets. And we have some rabbits that get only hay and limited greens with no pellets. The primary content of the pellet, be it alfalfa or timothy, should be irrelevent since pellets should be such a small part of the diet anyway. And the fiber found in pellets (and also in the compressed hay blocks) are not the same as the stemmy "real hay". In my opinion, based on my many years of being involved in rabbits, the general "guidelines" that are out there are way too high in their suggestions of pellet offerings. All pellets have much more protein than a rabbit's gut was designed to take. Pellets originally were designed to make meat and breeding rabbits add weight quickly....and they do just that. But that is not what you want in a house rabbit. A fat rabbit is very unhealthy and will suffer numerous GI issues and the fat is very stressful on the liver. We try our best to offer as much natural foods as possible....many times directly from our all natural yard. And we try to feed our domestics as close to a wild rabbit's diet as safely possible. Just think....have you ever seen an overweightwild rabbitor cecals in your yard from a wild bunny. Not likely since they eat as nature intended....and so should our domestics.

If these rabbits were admitted into our sanctary, I would start reducing the amount of pellets gradually until they were getting no more than 1/8 cup per day or less. They should have unlimted grass hays...timothy, orchard grass, bermuda and oat just to name a few. Carrots are a big no-no with buns that have GI concerns. I would stick to this "Bunny 101" diet until we get a ready gut and sometimes that might take a little bit of time. Then add veggies in small amounts...one type of veggie at a time...until you see what each rabbit can tolerate. Make sure they are at their proper weight also. It also might help to offer a probiotic to help stabilize the GI flora by supporting the pH in the gut. Probiotics with cultures of the bacteria L Casei are particularly good. Here in the US, I use a product known as Bene-Bac. Make things as stress free as possible as the change in location may have had an effect. And don't discount the possibility of intestinal parasites. As far as the pellets, we use pellets only to maintain proper weight and conditioning. We have some that get none....and we have some older and sick rabbits that get free choice. The key to a "ready gut" in a rabbit is low protein (very limited pellets) and high fiber (stemmy grass hay in unlimited amounts). That makes for a happy digestive system.

Randy

 

[mouse_chalk]

Thanks Randy, for so much good info and advice!

Carrots aren't usually a regular occurance in our household- for Mouse and Chalk (our existing young bunnies) they are veryoccasional treats. I guess we just thought that since they would have likely been given it over other vegetables at the pet store, that a treat couldn't hurt. To clarify, although the manager there has rabbits herself and knows quite a bit about them, it's still a chain pet store that doesn't keep small animals in cages big enough, or give them enough hay, feeds them too many pellets, and carrots are considered the veggie part of their diets- the amount of times I've been into one of their stores and seen 2 or 3 bunnies witha whole large carrot in their cage! I just thought it would be good to carry on what they had been having before (although in smaller quantities!), to avoid further upset- I'd been more worried about things slowing down than going the opposite way!

And yes, their pellets will certainly decrease- Mouse and Chalk have pellets as a very small part of their diet, plus a large selection of fresh veggies- at least 4 or 5 different varieties a day- and lots of timothy, oat, orchard and (small amounts of as they're still young, plus they don't like it much!) alfalfa. This is the kind of diet we'd ideally like to get Barney and Snowy on, as Mouse and Chalk seem very happy and healthy on this.

We have been giving Barney and Snowy a pro-biotic aswell (forgot to mention this earlier), as, again they were getting it before, and we didn't want to take them off of it straightaway in case of upsets- especially with the move etc. Again, Mouse and Chalk had this when we first got them (they were from the same store chain), but we managed to take them off it gradually within a week or so- in fact they drink lots more water now!

We definately need to weigh them though, that will be top priority tomorrow, to make sure they're not overweight...

In the meantime, I hope we've not gone too wrong with them so far, this is our first experience with adult rabbits, I guess we've still got some way to go! :?

Again, thank you so much for all the help people

 

[mouse_chalk]

Just to update- Snowy had been improving this week, in fact I'd not seen any 'mess' in the cage since Saturday morning, and it was a much smaller pile. She's been fine all this week.

But this afternoon, I found a HUGE pile of mushy poo in her cage- mostly squashed cecals, but some of it looked kind of like diarreah (not sure of spelling), although not runny, just squishy and very smelly. She's not in any mood to be touched (sometimes she gets scared and 'bats' me away) so I can't pick her up and clean her up until my partner gets home in an hour or so to help. I think I'm going to ring the vets though and see if they can see her tomorrow. Although I don't know how I'll get there as my partner is working all day again...

She's been eating and drinking fine- we've reduced the pellets gradually and they are eating lots more hay- though they always got a lot anyway- and drinking a lot more. As she'd been fine for a few days we gave them a little bit of spring greens and a bit of romaine lettuce, and they seemed ok on that. I think that was maybe tuesday? and she was fine all day tuesday and yesterday... But maybe that's done it, and I've fed them veggies too soon :?

I'm really worried about her, and feel so bad that I've not done things right. I thought we were doing a good job taking care of them all but maybe not. I've also just discovered that Chalk has a cut on her shoulder which must have been from the scuffle she had with Snowy the other day. I checked her over at the time and she seemed to be fine, but I must have missed it

I feel so bad that I've let them down...

 

[mouse_chalk]

Forgot to add that we're also changing their pellets, but it's taken longer than I'd have liked as we've had to order them online, the ones they sell in our local pet shop are the ones we already use or another brand thatisn't much better on the fibre content...