Signs of gas pain--I think/hope...

[Jenk]

gmas rabbit wrote:

Jen - you know your bunnies and their history. You do what you think is right in the situation. We all do what we think is best, 20/20 hindsight is easier, we are not here to judge but to help. Sometimes being "over-cautious"when you know the history and symptoms is not a bad thing. I would hate for Jen to feel she cannot come on this forum and express her concerns and get support. Hugs to you both.

:thanks: :hug:

 

[Jenk]

CCWelch wrote:

I have no problem with the Simethicone, some bunnies have worse gas problems than others(there may be another underlying problem too)
I think Jenk did well by trying to get her bunny out of distress before it became anything worse but I do think that the sub-q fluids were a little early, please try syringe feeding fluids first, then if after 12 hours Pink has not drank anything then sub-q.

I just want to point out that syringing fluids--when they must be forced into a bun--is also a stressful process. (I know I'm stating the obvious; I make that point because whenever Pink feels unwell, my only option would be to force fluid down his throat. And that process, too, would prove stressful for him.) But if it were necessary, I'd do it.

Maybe if you find a way to add cilantro to Pink's greens then the gas issue will correct itself and you wont' have any more bouts of it?? worth a try if you can find cilantro.

Is cilantro thought to help prevent gas?

Pink's gut seems sensitive to certain dietary changes. He seems to tolerate the introduction of herbs/greens okay, but his gut turns very gurgly/loud if I change his hay. (Even a new bale of the same brand of timothy hay can cause his gut to turn loud and, at times, seem to cause what appears to be a gas-related issue.)

Grocers by me tend to over-water greens and herbs; they go bad faster than they should. That's the reason I stopped feeding cilantro nd mint leaves to my crew. But my goal is to buy some cilantro when I get greens this week and start re-introducing it to Pink and Emma. :thumbup

 

[Pipp]

Jenk wrote:

It feels as if you're saying that I somehow caused Pink's gas issue.

No, I'm saying your misinterpreting the signs of a gas issue. If he has a rumbling stomach, he's most likely just normally digesting his dinner.

When your stomach growls, does it mean you have gas? Sometimes they seem a little lethargic because they're simply tired, not because they're ill. Maybe he's paranoid because he associates his rumbling stomach with you giving him gas meds, who knows.

Its good that you recognize you jumped the gun on the Sub Q, I do know that my rabbit will drink when they have gas pain. Fluids are good for a blockage, you don't need them for gas.


Jenk wrote:

But I give Simethicone (and sometimes Metacam) if a gas bout is bad enough to cause rapid/audible breathing.

And rapid breathing is also common in a rabbit and not a sign of pain all that often at all. They expel heat, they digest food, they think.

I don't think you give your rabbits treats, but a 'treat test' is exactly that. Find a fruit or a carb (like oats with Pipp) that they love so much you know they're sick when they don't even sniff it.

The Metacam can literally kill your rabbits and should be used with an abundance of caution. It can cause stomach ulcers short term and organ damage long term. It's a very dangerous drug, all NSAIDS are.

I should have used the word 'average' instead of 'normal', but you're far more attentive and nervous than anyone on this board or any other forum or group I've ever seen. You've been coming here for a long time with your rabbits and I've also see your posts on the other other boards for a very long time.

I stand by the point of my post, which is you have to learn to relax and let your rabbits relax.

Over-treating can be as bad as under-treating. And micro-managing and worrying about their care so much isn't doing you any good either!


sas

 

[Pipp]

The above pics are a couple of sets of Pipp's poops. I think I was monitoring her poops while experimenting with diets and molts or whatever.

She was (and is) perfectly healthy. They very often look like this and they have for at least four years. She's fine.

They're not big and fluffy simply because she doesn't eat hay. Every different type of veggie can cause a different look to her feces especially when it's new.

The poops also change with how active she is, how much stress she's under, how much she drank that day, how her teeth have grown and how much she's shedding.

I had to get over the idea that she needed to have light fluffy and round poops to be healthy. Its one of those urban bunny myths.

My other rabbits will also have different looking output and different sounding guts based on the day's diet, and that includes different types of hay as well as veggies, and the other things listed above (although with the consistent hay consumption it is a lot more subtle).

The point is you can't get an accurate reading of a bunny's health by listening to their stomachs and watching their poops.

Things like small, dry poops, rapid breathing and a gurgling stomach are poor gauges of rabbit health.

That also means you really shouldn't restrict any food based on output. They need variety. Unless you get seriously runny poops or no poops for 24 hours or more, it's not a health issue.

I really think you have to look at the whole rabbit over the course of the (full) day and not react to the small stuff.


sas

PS: I'll add that Pipp eats a zillion different kinds of veggies (probably eight to 10 cups worth) and a small handful of pellets a day but nary a strand of hay or grass (only because the stinker won't eat it), and since she started this diet, she hasn't needed molar spurs surgery. She had being going in every two months, now she's had it once in four and a half years. She's seven.

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

No, I'm saying your misinterpreting the signs of a gas issue. If he has a rumbling stomach, he's most likely just normally digesting his dinner.

In my original post, I never state that Pink had a gurgly-sounding gut because, in this particular case, he didn't.

Maybe he's paranoid because he associates his rumbling stomach with you giving him gas meds, who knows.

Pink is anything but paranoid. He's one of the most laid-back buns on the planet. After all, he is a Californian.

Fluids are good for a blockage, you don't need them for gas.

At the time I'd given sub-Q's, Pink had barely touched his water in about 14 hours' time. I gave them because I thought he was reaching that time period of when he'd need re-hydration. (My other option would've been to force oral fluids, which would've taken longer and likely have proven to be a more stressful procedure.)

...You're far more attentive and nervous than anyone on this board or any other forum or group I've ever seen. You've been coming here for a long time with your rabbits and I've also see your posts on the other other boards for a very long time.

Since you've read so many of my posts over time, surely you also have read that I have anxiety? Until now, I've been rather vague about it. And I know how the word anxiety doesn't make much of an impression, since most people experience it now and then and think that they can relate. In my case, it's an official diagnosis of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and it's no cake-walk to live with; everyday things can cause it to skyrocket. Although my anxiety does sky-rocket with regards to my buns' care, that is NOT to say that I don't love them dearly.

I do my best for my rabbits. I am not out to mistreat or over-treat them. (I'm still not convinced that I misread Pink''s symptoms this last time around. Could I have sat tight a little longer before intervening? Perhaps. But, again, it's REALLY difficult to do so when anxiety is at play.)

The last time Emma wound up in stasis--and on all sorts of meds.--it was, IMO, because I tried taking a more wait-and-see approach to symptoms I was observing. Specifically, some of her fecals had become smaller than her norm and were a bit decreased in quantity. Still, I didn't step in because I thought I might be overreacting.

On day #4 of these symptoms, Emma was in a great deal of pain. (She lies in a specific area of her pen when she feels unwell--a great tip-off.) An x-ray revealed a huge ball of gas in her stomach. By then, the pain had caused her to nearly stop pooping. To this day, I kick myself for not having "over-treated" in that case. I feel that, at the very least, a little Critical-Care would've helped give her more fluid and fiber to help keep things moving along.

Long story short: I know my rabbits best and will do what I think needs to be done for them, which really is all that any bun owner can do. When it comes to Pink, I will try to sit tight longer when next I see him acting "off." But I probably could give him no more than 12 hours' of no eating/drinking/pooping before doing something for him.

...Micro-managing and worrying about their care so much isn't doing you any good either!

Anxiety makes it extremely difficult for a person to simply relax. Logically, I know it doesn't do me--or anyone else--any good. But it's a thought pattern that is hard to break. I really do try, though.

 

[Jenk]

I want to clarify that anxiety does not mean that a person necessarily misinterprets situations; rather, it means that s/he may experience a hyped reaction to them. BIG difference.

I believe that I read Pink's symptoms correctly this last time around. The shifting of his gut on (and pressing it to) the floor is one of his red flags for gas.


Jenk

 

[CCWelch]

Jenk, I realize it is hard on you just losing Zoe but Pink is not Zoe. I don't think that jumping immediately when you think something is wrong is a good idea. It does not hurt to wait 12 hours and reevaluate, it is unlikely that the rabbit will die in 12 hours unless it has gone completely unnoticed.

I can tell you keep a very close eye on your bunnies and while that is a good thing, sometimes it can make you jump to the idea something is wrong when in fact the bunny is just having an off day.(just like we humans do)

I have had bunnies go off feed for 2 days and be fine, the weather affects them even if they are indoors, as do temperature changes and if there is a different noise in the house or a new dog barking in the neighborhood sometimes even that will stress them.

I have some very stressed bunnies this morning (as well as my chickens) because the Coyotes were howling last night.