Signs of gas pain--I think/hope...

[Jenk]

Since losing Zoe, I'm hypervigilant about Emma's and Pinkerton's health. Both are shedding right now, though Pink's shed is rather light.

This morning, Pink started showing signs of gas pain: eating only a small portion of his pellets; acting lethargic; and passing a few tiny, dry-ish fecals in his box. (He passed a decent quantity of normal-looking fecals during the overnight period.)

I've given him two doses of Simethicone (his third is due at 11:15 am), one dose of Metacam (.40 mL's for his 9-lb. size), and a dose of sub-Q's (60 cc's). I'm scared to syringe Critical Care into him or to force him to exercise. I believe it's a gas issue, but it could be a slowdown due to decreased fiber in his diet. (Our current Oxbow hay is rather crappy: flimsy and dusty.)

After the second dose of Simethicone, Pink started breathing rapidly. I think gas (or ingesta material) shifted, causing more pain. He stopped breathing rapidly about 10 minutes' later. I gave him the sub-Q's when his breathing returned to normal, and he's currently resting in the loaf position.

Pink's had bad gas bouts in the past that have lasted as long as 12 hours', so a part of me is saying, Sit tight. The vet isn't likely to find anything other than gas and, thus, the treatment protocol would be the same as what you're currently doing. Still, it's difficult to sit tight when it's a Friday, and my vet is likely booked up already. (She often takes in animals on a drop-off basis when her day is booked.) If Pink were still having problems by tomorrow, I could likely get him seen by an exotics-only vet, but he always charges more for pets that aren't his regular clients. Ugh...

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[naturestee]

I know you just went through a horrible ordeal with Zoe, but sometimes I think doing too much intervention and fussing over a rabbit can just stress them out.

Keep up with the simethicone every couple of hours. Feed him canned pumpkin. If he eats greens, wet them down a little. I don't really see a need for sub-q fluids for a little gas pain. Let him run if he wants to, but also just let him deal with it for a few hours. He pooped fine last night, he pooped a little bit this morning, and he's not completely off his food so there's no reason to panic yet. It will take a little time for this to work through his system. Remember that animals can sense your stress, so if you need to just leave and go for a walk to help yourself feel better. Unless the rabbit is showing signs of greater stress or some other symptoms, that's all I do for 12-24 hours. That's just how intestines work- they are slow-moving things.

:feelbetter:

 

[Jenk]

naturestee wrote:

I know you just went through a horrible ordeal with Zoe, but sometimes I think doing too much intervention and fussing over a rabbit can just stress them out.

Keep up with the simethicone every couple of hours. Feed him canned pumpkin. If he eats greens, wet them down a little. I don't really see a need for sub-q fluids for a little gas pain. Let him run if he wants to, but also just let him deal with it for a few hours. He pooped fine last night, he pooped a little bit this morning, and he's not completely off his food so there's no reason to panic yet. It will take a little time for this to work through his system. Remember that animals can sense your stress, so if you need to just leave and go for a walk to help yourself feel better. Unless the rabbit is showing signs of greater stress or some other symptoms, that's all I do for 12-24 hours. That's just how intestines work- they are slow-moving things.

:feelbetter:

I know I jump into action when it comes to my rabbits showing signs of gut pain, and it's difficult for me to determine when a vet visit is in order (or not). Whenever I call the vet's office, the receptionist says, based on the symptoms, that "the doctor will likely want to take a look at him." (I've made quite a visits that have resulted in nothing abnormal found--or just gas found--and no change to the protocol I'd been following. )

Pink is still alert, and I'm about to put him back into his pen to let him rest (and, hopefully, eat/drink/poop a bit more).

Moments ago, he urinated on the floor in an area where Zoe used to urinate (and where Pink has urinated/marked in the past due to smelling Zoe's urine). I think he did so due to being away from his litter box and me massaging a bit on his gut.

Once he's back in his pen, I will focus on my work, which I must do downstairs and out of sight of the buns.I'll try to calm down. Honest.

Jenk

 

[Jenk]

On July 30, Pink seemed to ingest some carpet fiber from a very low-pile runner rug. (It looked as though he chewed/ingested some of the rug's edging.)

I'm worried that even though he seemed to consume what would likely be considered a small amount of carpet fiber, he's also been eating flimsy Oxbow hay. (I hate being at the mercy of whatever Oxbow decides to package.)

I did start offering him some Oxbow oat hay several days' ago--one small handful each evening. For all I know, this issue could be gut sensitivity to the new hay type. (He doesn't usually get oat hay and, coincidentally, has had gut issues in the past shortly after having orchard grass--also not fed regularly.)


Jenk

 

[gmas rabbit]

Jenk - I know nothing but statis but just wondering if a little something with psylium in would help with the gas and pain. Bowel buddy cookies from the drug store or even some fiber one cereal. Just a though. Hugs to you, I know what it is like to suffer anxious moment over these little guys.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

ray: Blessed be.

 

[Jenk]

At 4 pm, Pink begged for some fresh timothy hay I had in my hand--always a good sign. Then at 4:45 pm, I heard him messing with his pellet dish and peeked to see him eating some more of the pellets he'd left sitting since this morning. My fingers are crossed that by this evening, he'll start producing fecals again.

It's taken four doses of Simethicone to get him to this point--not the first time he's required that many (or more) doses in a day. As I've said, there have been times when it's taken 12 hours' for him to return to normal: eating/drinking/pooping.

For now, I'll try to remain hopeful that he's bouncing back from a bad gas bout (or other tummy irritation).


Jenk

 

[Maureen Las]

gmas rabbit wrote:

Jenk - I know nothing but statis but just wondering if a little something with psylium in would help with the gas and pain. Bowel buddy cookies from the drug store or even some fiber one cereal. Just a though. Hugs to you, I know what it is like to suffer anxious moment over these little guys.

don't give psylium to a rabbit. I asked this same question a long time ago on Etherbun and Rami (vet) said not to use it. I wish I could give a detailed explanation as to why not but I can only guess that the GI anatomy of a rabbit doesn not utilize psylium seed in the same manner as a human.

 

[naturestee]

I remember reading that post about psyllium.

Gmas: What rabbits need for healthy tummies is long-strand fiber such as hay. That is what they are designed to digest, and it also works a bit like a scrub brush to clean the intestines. Most pellets and Critical Care also have the type of fiber that is good for bunnies. The powdered stuff that humans use is much more fine, and not what rabbits are made to digest. If you know anything about horses, rabbit digestion is fairly similar because they are designed to eat the same sort of food (although rabbits eat cecals made by their cecum, a branch off the intestines).

 

[gmas rabbit]

Always a good day when you learn something. Thanks.

 

[CCWelch]

Rather than pushing Sub-Q fluids try some water mixed with pineapple juice or apple flavored pedialyte. I had a bunny with Mucoid Enteritis and had to syringe not only Simethicone, but also medicine and fluids for a full week but he would try to drink the pedialyte.

 

[Jenk]

Pinkerton continued to perk up after eating a little hay around 4 pm yesterday. He finally finished his pellets by 8:30 pm--13 hours' from the time he got them. And it took him 3.5 hours' to eat his greens, but he got them down, too.

Erring on the side of caution, I gave him a fifth and final Simethicone dose last night. As of today, he's doing better. He's not 100% peppy yet but is making up for lost time in the pooping department.

:litterhealthy: :clapping:

Jenk

 

[Pipp]

Rabbits are prone to small bouts of gas all the time, just like people. Normal rabbit slaves don't even notice.

And just like people, the feces will not always be perfectly formed healthy looking things every day. I'm sure you don't go running to the doctor or even the medicine immediately when your stool is too hard or too soft.

When rabbit people warn about the dangers of stasis or diarrhea, this is NOT what they're talking about.

Taking any kind of a med has to be very much an 'as necessary' procedure because they all have side effect and/or other repercussions, and they can also mask the real issue -- in the RARE case there is one.

There is also precious little research done on rabbits, and who knows what simethicon or excess fluids effects they may discover years down the road.

And the dangers involved with sticking a needle in the rabbit's skin far outweighs the dangers of this level of potential dehydration. No matter how careful you are, you're risking bacteria entering the body or bloodstream.

Stress on the kidneys may be an issue, and if the problem is heart or lung-related, the fluids could be detrimental.

More importantly, you're compromising the rabbit's immune system with the stress of your treatments. This far far FAR outweighs any benefits of these constant treatments.

Stress is the greatest enemy. I know from having a bug running through the herd that any kind of 'stress', from skipping a salad to a flea bite to treating a mate to not cleaning a pen to going away for a couple of days will make them sneeze and itch with fur mites.

Again, it's no different from humans. If you have a cold and you go to bed, take vitamins and drink warm fluids, you feel better than if you don't get enough sleep, skip meals or deal with something stressful.

If you're digestive tract is off, you eat the right foods to correct the situation.

If you think a rabbit is just a bit off, let them rest, ENCOURAGE them to drink and make sure they're getting a great selection of nutrients and fiber.

This rarely means restricting any foods other than treats because they do know what they need.

What if Pinkerton was a child who was slightly constipated or slightly runny or not very hungry one day? You wouldn't force him to take medication, poke needles into his skin and restrict him to cereal and water his whole life to make sure it didn't happen again. He'd be a stressed out, unhealthy little boy.

Jenk, you mean well, but all your rabbits have issues, and it's not a coincidence. You have to learn to relax and let the rabbits relax and give them a chance to let their bodies adjust on their own.


sas :expressionless

 

[Jenk]

Pipp wrote:

What if Pinkerton was a child who was slightly constipated or slightly runny or not very hungry one day? You wouldn't force him to take medication, poke needles into his skin and restrict him to cereal and water his whole life to make sure it didn't happen again. He'd be a stressed out, unhealthy little boy.

Jenk, you mean well, but all your rabbits have issues, and it's not a coincidence. You have to learn to relax and let the rabbits relax and give them a chance to let their bodies adjust on their own.

It feels as if you're saying that I somehow caused Pink's gas issue. I assure you that is not the case--unless his gut was overly sensitive to the oat hay I'd fed him.

I've stated that Pink's latest gas episode was bad enough to make him breathe very rapidly/audibly. Whenever he reaches that point of pain, I give Simethicone. I would rather cause him 10 seconds' of stress to get the Simethicone into him in an effort to help break up the gas.

You can disagree with me on the sub-Q issue. Even I think I jumped the gun on that one this time around. But I give Simethicone (and sometimes Metacam) if a gas bout is bad enough to cause rapid/audible breathing.

 

[Watermelons]

Pipp hit the nail on the head, what do you do when you get an upset tummy? If we were to start downing the pepto and tylenol every time something happened our kidneys would be fried in no time. And bunnys have very delicate kidneys.

Next time you think their having gas issues, try something natural... Cilantro is great for this!

And rapid/audible breating can be caused by 1000 things, not just a bit of gas. It doesnt always mean pain...

 

[Jenk]

Watermelons wrote:

And rapid/audible breating can be caused by 1000 things, not just a bit of gas. It doesnt always mean pain...

True. But before resorting to a vet visit to test for God-only-knows-what--and I've found diagnostics for rabbits to be very woeful--I would rather treat for what appears to be the situation. In this particular case, the issue did pass. Can I prove that it was the Simethicone? No, not to anyone's satisfaction. Coincidental or not, the situation did seem to resolve itself after the Simethicone.

BTW, I'm rather offended by the allusion that I am not a "normal" bun owner. (Watermelons, I know you didn't make that statement; I just didn't feel like making a separate post to state that point.)


Jenk

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

Jenk is doing what they feel is right for their bunny. None of you know her bunny since it isn't yours. I recomend cilantro for gas issues with my bunnies it always worked, but I'm not one to judge. If you feel that won't work, do what works for *your* bunny.

 

[Jenk]

Bunnylova4eva wrote:

Jenk is doing what they feel is right for their bunny. None of you know her bunny since it isn't yours. I recomend cilantro for gas issues with my bunnies it always worked, but I'm not one to judge. If you feel that won't work, do what works for *your* bunny.

Hi, Bunnylova4eva.

I do agree that I jumped the gun on the sub-Q issue but stand by my decision to give Simethicone when the symptoms seem to warrant it. (Note: Pink typically has 2-4 noticeable gas bouts per year; at times, 1-2 Simethicone doses seem to do the trick. It's not as if I'm giving him Simethicone for days on end.)

I can't recall if I stated as much earlier in this thread, but Pink will not touch food (or flavored water) when he has what appears to be gas pain. I could wave parsley, Romaine, hay, Critical Care, etc. under his nose to no avail. When he feels unwell, he acts as if everything were poison.

 

[gmas rabbit]

Jen - you know your bunnies and their history. You do what you think is right in the situation. We all do what we think is best, 20/20 hindsight is easier, we are not here to judge but to help. Sometimes being "over-cautious"when you know the history and symptoms is not a bad thing. I would hate for Jen to feel she cannot come on this forum and express her concerns and get support. Hugs to you both.

 

[CCWelch]

I have no problem with the Simethicone, some bunnies have worse gas problems than others(there may be another underlying problem too)
I think Jenk did well by trying to get her bunny out of distress before it became anything worse but I do think that the sub-q fluids were a little early, please try syringe feeding fluids first, then if after 12 hours Pink has not drank anything then sub-q.

Maybe if you find a way to add cilantro to Pink's greens then the gas issue will correct itself and you wont' have any more bouts of it?? worth a try if you can find cilantro.