Signs of Digestive Upset...

[Jenk]

Last Friday, Zoe stopped eating for part of the day and spent much time lying in her litter box, which is unusual for her. I gave her three doses of Simethicone;she returned to her normal self: Her appetite returned; her thirst has remained good throughout this time; her fecals have remainednormal (for a megacolon bun).

The past few days', I've noticed her lyingin the "loaf" position;I don't catch her sleeping. I suspect that her stomach (maybe her cecum) is uncomfy to the point that she can't sleep. My husband said last night that her gut is fairly gurgly.

My husband doesn't want yet another vet visit because she has flare-up digestive issues.Heworries thatif she's put back on antibiotics, we'll go through another period of repeatedvet visits (to balance out her system); we just can't afford it. Also, we worry that putting a bun back into the car could re-introduce a mite problem, if my car is affected. (We believe that it is; I've felt bites while driving.)

Zoe's been eating timothy hay, 1 tsp. of Oxbow BB/T and Italian parsley. She also gets orchard grass and oat hay some days. This diet was working well; then we confined all three rabbits to their respective rooms, sincewe're trying to end a mite infestation and want it at least contained, if it turns out that we're not through with it yet. I suspect that Zoe's unwillingness to run on laminate flooring may be playing a part in her digestive upset because she was handling pellets fine since Dec. '08.

Does her current discomfort sound like something that I could try to balance out myself (e.g., by feeding her hay only for a week, etc.)? I dread stopping the pellets and greens, since I worked diligently/slowly to get her system to accept them. I hate feeling like I might need to return to square one.

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[tonyshuman]

It doesn't sound that abnormal to me--my guys don't eat all day and spend most of their time loafed up sleeping with their eyes open. Are you sure that she's acting abnormally? I know that you know your bunnies well, so if this is abnormal for her it is a concern. What about some tummy rubs and more simethicone? Also, Bene-Bac or Probios? Pureed pumpkin? Syringe her a little pedialyte or water?

I'm just concerned that the vet can't do anything other than give her extra fluids and maybe some motility drugs, which in her case seem to be something she becomes dependent on. However, the periodicity of the upsets sounds perhaps like an intestinal parasite.

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

It doesn't sound that abnormal to me--my guys don't eat all day and spend most of their time loafed up sleeping with their eyes open. Are you sure that she's acting abnormally? I know that you know your bunnies well, so if this is abnormal for her it is a concern.

What makes things harder to gauge is that all blankets have been removed from her room (until we lick this mite issue). She normally stretches out in it, which is how I can tell that she's feeling fine. But without her blanket, she seems likea fish out of water. (I feel cruel for having removed it. )

She's still eating okay and appears active/feisty in the morning ('cause she looks forward to getting her pellets). But I'm concerned that she doesn't even close her eyes to sleep now. I often find her sitting upright, too, rather than finding her in the loaf position. I suspect that gas/tummy upset has her doing this.

What about some tummy rubs and more simethicone? Also, Bene-Bac or Probios? Pureed pumpkin? Syringe her a little pedialyte or water?

I've been rubbing her tummy the past few nights' (as much as she'll allow me to do so, which isn't a lot). I gave her two doses of Simethicone last night but am starting to wonder how long I can/should continue to do so. I have a little Bene-Bac on hand and could order more. Still, I worry about disrupting her gut flora in any way, though I suppose that a week's worth of a probiotic isn't the worst thing.

I won't syringe her fluids because she's still drinking a good amount of water on her own.

I'm just concerned that the vet can't do anything other than give her extra fluids and maybe some motility drugs, which in her case seem to be something she becomes dependent on. However, the periodicity of the upsets sounds perhaps like an intestinal parasite.

You're confusing Zoe with Emma, I think. Zoe's been on motility drugs before, true, but actually less frequently than has Emma.

I think that all a vet could do for her is run a fecal culture ($$$) and motility drugs.

I still suspect that her digestive upset may be due to her lack ofmovement (due to being in one room, rather than having full run of the entire upstairs). We go into their room nightly and (playfully) chase them around to get them to move and groove, but it's nowhere near as good as them running all-out from one end of the house to the other. But until we know that the mites are gone...

 

[tonyshuman]

Your fecal tests are expensive? Here they're pretty cheap, I think around $20?

Sorry about the confusion--to be honest your guys confuse me a lot because their digestive upset seems so frequent and hard to remedy. It would make sense that not having a comfy blanket to lie on and lots of space to run might lead to the sitting you're seeing and some upset.

I personally don't worry unless they've gone 12 hours without eating or pooing--that means it's time for a dose of something. 24 hours is time to go to the vet.

 

[Maureen Las]

a bun not closing his/her eyes nor sitting in the loaf position is not a symptom of anything other than she may not be as familar with the room that she is presently in
and she may miss her blanket ...but that doesn't mean there is a physical problem

Buns move about differently , mine go many hours without eating and then eat '

I pay little attention to it unless it is a refusal of pellets or treats. or there is a change in poops.

 

[naturestee]

Fey does this off and on, depending on how good her gut is at the moment. It's never perfect. I've found it's better to just ride it out and don't stress her, instead of giving meds she doesn't like and picking her up for tummy rubs which she really doesn't like. If her poops are looking off I'll mix some Benebac into pumpkin for her so she'll eat it on her own. If she stays somewhat uncomfortable for a while or gets worse, then I'll do something.

I think of it like my own IBS- sometimes no matter what you do you feel bad. So you ride it out and wait for the next day.

Edit: I'll also add that Fey in particular spends a lot of her "sleeping" time in a loaf position (often on hard floor/shelf instead of her thick rug) with her eyes open. So does Mocha, who does not have tummy issues. It's just what they do.

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

Your fecal tests are expensive? Here they're pretty cheap, I think around $20?

You're confusing a fecal test (for parasites) with a fecal culture (for bacteria). If I recall correctly, it's over $100 for a culture.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

a bun not closing his/her eyes nor sitting in the loaf position is not a symptom of anything other than she may not be as familar with the room that she is presently inand she may miss her blanket ...but that doesn't mean there is a physical problem

She's familiar with the room; it's been her home for several months' now.

Buns move about differently, mine go many hours without eating and then eat.

Like all buns, she goes a long stretch of time without eating (usually between 10:30 am - 7 pm, or thereabouts). But last Friday, she got into her litter box to eat, did so briefly, and then flopped down in it for a long period. Even my husband agreed that it wasn't like her. Still, she's been eating/drinking/pooping all of this time, but there are definite oddities that suggest some gut discomfort.

I pay little attention to it unless it is a refusal of pellets or treats. or there is a change in poops.

Last Friday, Zoe refused both Simethicone (which we had to force down her) and parsley, both of which she loves. That was another indicator that, at that time, she felt crummy.

She's willingly accepted the Simethicone that last few (random) doses, so that's at least something.

 

[Jenk]

naturestee wrote:

Fey does this off and on, depending on how good her gut is at the moment. It's never perfect. I've found it's better to just ride it out and don't stress her, instead of giving meds she doesn't like and picking her up for tummy rubs which she really doesn't like. If her poops are looking off I'll mix some Benebac into pumpkin for her so she'll eat it on her own. If she stays somewhat uncomfortable for a while or gets worse, then I'll do something.

Zoe loves just about anything that comes out of a syringe--odd, but true; so it's not stressful to her (unless she fights taking a med. because she just doesn't feel well).

Two questions:

1) Do you alter Fey's diet in any way when she goes through rough patches like this (e.g., give her less of something, cut something out entirely, etc.)?

2) When you say that her poops look "off," what do you mean? (For Zoe, it's slimy-looking fecals that concern me.)

3) Approximately how long do you give Fey to start showing signs of improvement?

I wonder if the Bene-Bac is a good thing, since an overgrowth of "good" bacteria is still considered undesireable. :?

Edit: I'll also add that Fey in particular spends a lot of her "sleeping" time in a loaf position (often on hard floor/shelf instead of her thick rug) with her eyes open. So does Mocha, who does not have tummy issues. It's just what they do.

True, Zoe does the "loaf" position when on a hard floor (and stretches out all cute-like when inside of a blanket). Still, I find her sitting hunched at times (no tooth grinding observed). I've be extremely good at keeping my anxiety (and vet bills) underwraps for a few months' now; still, I can't help but feel that something's a bit "off" in terms of Zoe's general behavior (since last Friday).

 

[naturestee]

Jenk wrote:

1) Do you alter Fey's diet in any way when she goes through rough patches like this (e.g., give her less of something, cut something out entirely, etc.)? I routinely vary her veggies. I've never found this to bother her except for when I mistakenly gave her some pea leaves once that were meant for the other buns. Her pellets are measured and her hay comes in 40 lb bales. Sometimes she'll be uncomfortable when starting a new bale if it has a lot of alfalfa in it and I didn't get all of that out for her.

2) When you say that her poops look "off," what do you mean? (For Zoe, it's slimy-looking fecals that concern me.) Fey's fecals have a lot of variation. I don't worry about them unless they're mushy or have mucous. I'm more concerned when I see spots of liquid cecals. This usually happens before the fecals get worse.

3) Approximately how long do you give Fey to start showing signs of improvement? It really depends. If her poop looks fine and she's eating fine, I'll let it go for maybe two days before reducing pellets (she gets 2 tablespoons a day but Oberon usually eats more than his share anyway). I'll add pumpkin to help with hydration. If she's not more active in another day or two I'll add Bene-bac.

I wonder if the Bene-Bac is a good thing, since an overgrowth of "good" bacteria is still considered undesireable. It's donenothing but good for Fey and Dora. The bacteria in it are not actually found in rabbit intestines, theyjust help to make the environment more suitable for the natural beneficial bacteria. For example, a pH shift due to GI slowdown or illnessmight allow a bad bacteriato compete better against the normal beneficial flora.

When my vets do a fecal check, they're able to get results back for me in the same visit. That includes Coccidia and Clostridium. I'm guessing they're able to see them under a microscope after doing a fecal float. I've never had to have a more complex test done, not even for Dora although I guess her Clostridium was fairly obvious.Like Tonyshuman, I only pay around $20 for this.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

For the car mites, I suggest you spray it with a pyrethrin spray, leave it closed with it in there for a time and then wipe down the parts that need it. There are safe ones for home/upolstry.

 

[tonyshuman]

pyrethrin can be bad for bunnies, I think, so make sure you air it out well afterwards.

 

[Jenk]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

For the car mites, I suggest you spray it with a pyrethrin spray, leave it closed with it in there for a time and then wipe down the parts that need it. There are safe ones for home/upolstry.

We've actually done this once, back in Oct. '08. We used Virbac. But carting the animals to the vet for shots and whatnot likely re-introduced mites to the car. And one dose of Virbac isn't enough anyway. I plan on dosing my car at least two--if not three--times.

I promise to let it dry/air out completely before putting any animals back in it.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Good idea. We have goat mites/lice right now. The stuff we are using is supposed to be pretty good.... I know there are resistant bugs now too. I don't know what Virbac is, but check out Synergized by Gordon. It seems to be really good.. our vet recommended it. Just BE CAREFUL! I hate using any of that stuff, but sometimes it's a must!

 

[tonyshuman]

Jenk wrote:

I promise to let it dry/air out completely before putting any animals back in it.

I know you're a responsible bunny owner. I've just been looking into mite treatment because Frida may have them (bf is taking her to the vet on Monday) and I thought for a second that Frontline is pyrethrins, so it would be terrible for bunnies. It isn't.

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

I know you're a responsible bunny owner. I've just been looking into mite treatment because Frida may have them (bf is taking her to the vet on Monday) and I thought for a second that Frontline is pyrethrins, so it would be terrible for bunnies. It isn't.

Pyrethrins are a necessary evil in terms of killing off mites. I hate the thought of using any chemical in our home, but that is one of the three chemicals that exterminators are still allowed (by the EPA) to use. It's what I call a necessary evil.

 

[tonyshuman]

Yup, pyrethrins aren't as bad as the older type of pesticides. They're actually derived from chrysanthemums and are biodegradable, a huge improvement over organochlorines (like DDT) and organophosphates. The bad chemical for bunnies is Fipronil, which is not a pyrethrin. It's actually structurally more similar to the organochlorines.

 

[Jenk]

tonyshuman wrote:

The bad chemical for bunnies is Fipronil, which is not a pyrethrin. It's actually structurally more similar to the organochlorines.

My mom was recently told (by a large exterminator company) that carbamates and organophosphates are now banned by the EPA. So no one should really have access to them anymore (assuming that they're following the law).

Per the exterminator who will be treating my house, his spraycontains Precor IGR (the growth regulator) and Tempo WP (cylfluthrin). And the fogger contains the pyrethrin; so we should be safe, as long as we clean up the bunnies' living quarters one day before we move them back into the house.