RIP little HOLLY rabbit losing weight - fast!

[countrybunnyholly]

Hi - we are looking for any advice we can get to help our bunny. We raise N. Dwarf show rabbits, and Holly is our grand champion at only 10 months old. In the last 3 weeks, she went off her feed and started losing weight dramatically. She has now lost about 35% of her body weight (normally 2.2 lbs), despite eating fresh foods, timothy hay, and kitten replacement formula, plus fresh vegetables. We have been to two vets, and treated her for both hairball and worms. Her teeth check out fine. Still she loses weight daily. Her poop is very small, like a very young rabbit and she will not eat her regular rabbit food. The vets have both proposed very extensive and expensive blood work and X-rays, and we may have no choice but to pursue, but I thought I'd check around out there to see if anyone has experienced this before and might have some direction for us to go. One other note, we have observed her in a very odd pose, sitting with her head tilted slightly back as if she is looking up at something. Strange for a N. Dwarf, which usually poses with the chin tucked into the chest. Any help is appreciated!!

 

[polly]

Hey it will help us if you can post where you are in the world as treatments can vary from place to place.

What are you feeding her at the mo and what % of fibre and stuff is in it?

Is she drinking?

What hay do you give her (alfa alfa or timothy?

Can you get some nutrical or some critical care ? they are great supplements to help when they are not eating.

Have you tried syringe feeding baby food or mushed up pellets?

Can you give her some veg as they will tend to eat that first over pellets when they aren't feeling well.

Has something stressed her?

If it was me i would certainly be syringe feeding pellet mush to keep her system going with critical care mixed in.

and syringe water too to help keep her hydrated maybe ask your vet about showing you how to inject sub Q fluids

The head thing could be cause she is weak from not eating enough

Hopefully Randy will come on and give you some advice

 

[Flashy]

Welcome to the forum, like polly dsaid, if you could put your location, at the very least the country, in your profile, you will get helpo more specified to you.

Whta is her water itnake like? has she been drinking a lot? going to the toilet a lot? has she had any problems with her back legs at all?

the reason i ask is because e. cuniculi is something that comes ot mind. i know that bunnies can really struggle to keep weight on with that, and EC can also be related to head tilt. i dont know if your bun has head tilt, but holding her head in a different way may be the start or an inidication?

polly hgas asked good questions, and givern i know nothing, i have nothing else to add.


ETA- could the head thing be breathing rleated? the buns ive seen in bresathing diatress, even if they sound ok, have had their heads back trying to get more oxygen in.

 

[countrybunnyholly]

Hi Polly - we are in New Jersey, US. We have tried a variety of foods, including fresh fruits and vegetables, baby food, pumpkin timothy hay, oats, and wet pellets. We were just trying to get her to eat anything. What she has eaten most is oats, parsley, carrots and timothy, plus the kitten replacement milk, which she takes from a syringe (no force feeding needed). Her normal feed is Big Red rabbit food, 16% protein, 2% fat, 15% - 18% fiber, and 1% calcium, plus phosphorous and salt.

Never thought about the head thing being a sign of weakness, that's a good point.

 

[countrybunnyholly]

[Whta is her water itnake like? has she been drinking a lot? going to the toilet a lot? has she had any problems with her back legs at all?}

Water intake seems less than normal, and not sure what's coming out. Back legs seem fine.

[the reason i ask is because e. cuniculi is something that comes ot mind. i know that bunnies can really struggle to keep weight on with that, and EC can also be related to head tilt. i dont know if your bun has head tilt, but holding her head in a different way may be the start or an inidication?]

Are you talking about wry neck? We've seen that before and it has been much more dramatic than this - scissor ears, rolling and twisting. This is much more subtle, and when she notices you, she brings her head back to normal position.


[ETA- could the head thing be breathing rleated? the buns ive seen in bresathing diatress, even if they sound ok, have had their heads back trying to get more oxygen in.]

On examination there was no sign of upper respiratory problems.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Wasn't it Randy who said Kitten replacement formula can actually be damaging to bunnies? Can anyone clarify this?

 

[polly]

I would DEF. get your vet to show you how to do the subQ fluids to keep her nice and hydrated.

Its nutrical you get over there then and the people on here seem to swear by it.

Can you get Alfa Alfa cause thats better for younger rabbits than Timothy. i also get the dried grass it seems to work well also maybe a bit of peppermint you can get dried leaves or maybe a very dilute version with a peppermint tea bag in the water as its very good for digestion problems i usually find Coriander is a good one to give to help them eat to and oregano which is good for muccoid eneropathy and coccidosis.

definately mush the pellets up and get them into her, if you are really worried can you maybe get a scan to check for blockages.

DOes her tummy feel tight? warmth is good and tummy rubs.

Oh and also pineapple cause if there is a blockage and its hair it can help to disolve it.

Not so sure of your food as i don't really know the american brands but the fibre level sounds good



I am sorry its not under better circumstancs to meet i feel for you as i breed nethies tooI had one of my bucks do this and he didn't eat for 3 weeks except for nibbling, the oregano worked brill for me but we did pull him round by syringe feeding mush it took a while (almost 2 months to get him eating really well but we got there in the end ) Don't give up

 

[Flashy]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Wasn't it Randy who said Kitten replacement formula can actually be damaging to bunnies? Can anyone clarify this?

I'm searchingthe orum for this because i have a feeling you're righrt, but i can't find where he wrote it (if he did).

i hope your little bun keeps fighting countrybunnyholly.

 

[Flashy]

Hmm, ive been searching thourgh Randy's posts and maybe th4ese might help, the general idea seems to be to get a fecal test done. can't find anything useful on the replacement forumla though

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=26291&forum_id=16&highlight=randy



(sorry for my typing, i have an injured arm)

 

[jordiwes]

I have heard that dramatic weight loss can be a sign of kidney issues. I hope your little one gets better soon!

 

[Flashy]

jordiwes wrote:

I have heard that dramatic weight loss can be a sign of kidney issues. I hope your little one gets better soon!

i'm glad it wqasn'tr just me that thought that. that was why i asked about the water intake because that was my first thought, that then led me to EC.

 

[polly]

I know with EC if the rabbit gets dehydrated it can bring it on as the parasites get through the membrane walls and travel up to the brain (at least thats what i heard)

Could be sludgy kidneys as well but i know when it was mine it was stress a trip to the vet was enough to stop him eating but he is a total worry wart!!

 

[naturestee]

Welcome to the forum!

Can your vet do just the kidney and liver blood tests? Mine does this frequently as routine tests and it only costs about $20. This might be a better option than an expensive full blood panel especially as kidney and liver problems are more common than other issues that would be checked in a full blood panel.

Also, how did the vet check the teeth? It's hard to get a really good look at the molars without putting them under anesthesia. I know the first time Pipp's Nethie had molar spurs the vet kept saying that the teeth were fine until she insisted he put the bun under anesthesia and do a more thorough search. Sure enough, there were tiny spurs on the very last molars in the back and the bun recovered after they were filed down. This is only one of many cases where I have heard of molar spurs being missed until they got a full examination under anesthesia.

Will she eat wet slurried pellets through the syringe? That would be much better for her than the milk replacer. Adult rabbits usually don't digest milk very well, they loose the ability after they are weaned.

:clover:

 

[countrybunnyholly]

Wow! I stepped away for dinner and bedtime routines and I missed a lot! Thank you all for your concern and advice. I think we will stop the formula. She is taking a wet pellet mixture mixed with baby food veggies, as well as nibbling on some carrots and radishes. She loves parsley, and I ran out to get some tonight, but the store was out of it. Picked up some kale -we'll see if she likes it.

I will take all of this info and present it to my vet again. Ourlocal vet thought that her kidneys felt "abnormal" and "protruding" but I'm not sure of the implications. I then took her to the Vet hospital at the Un. of Pa in Philly and they said she palpated normally. Maybe I will see if he can do just the kidney blood work. But would kidney problems cause the small stools? I was thinking some type of GI problem. Maybe GI stasis?

About a month before she started having problems we began supplementing her regular pellets with a small amount (teaspoon) of Calf Manna. It is a higher protein, milk-based feed, supposed to be good for rabbits' flesh condition. Lots of breeders we know us it, but maybe Holly just has a problem with it. We have both her parents and two litter-mates who have had no trouble, though. What a mystery! And as much as I hate to reduce a pet's life to dollars and cents, I just can't spend the $800 they wanted at U of P. She's really a sweet girl, one of our nicest bunnies and our absolute best on the show table. If you think of anything else, we'll be glad to hear it.

Thanks again for your support.

 

[countrybunnyholly]

By the way, that's Holly in our picture, 3rd one from the left. We had two chestnuts and two black otters in the litter, and they were so cute - just like two sets of salt and pepper shakers!

 

[naturestee]

$800! I'd hesitate for that too. Xrays at my vet are about $100, I'm not sure what a full blood panel costs. I've found the bigger the city, the more the vet charges. If your local vet is good with rabbits I'd stick with him for now. Maybe he can consult with the vets at the college hospital via phone and fax if he wants another opinion on the results of xrays and lab tests.

Kidney problems can indeed cause GI problems due to discomfort and if she isn't hydrated enough. Are you syringing any fluids into her? Or you could try flavoring her water a little to encourage her to drink more. Would it be possible to put a pan beneath her cage to catch the urine? Then you'll know if she's urinating and it looks unusual.

 

[Pipp]

I don't have time to read this whole thread, sorry if I'm repeating anything.

The small stools (and stasis) are symptoms of whatever else is going on, so I'd suggest treating them (lots of hydration and fibre --canned pumpkin, pedialyte are great) but look elsewhere for her problem.

My guess would be kidneys or the lungs. How did the lower respiratory sound?

Hyrdration will be crucial, although I'd think in some casesyou also don't want to over tax them if they're compromised, so a bit of caution there.

Watch her urinary functions and breathing closely.

Must ask... Is she doing anything like picking up food and dropping it? Drooling at all? Does she seem hungry but then doesn't eat? Molar spurs are hard to detect visually.



sas ray:

 

[Ivory]

I'm going to give my honest opinion: it sounds like renal failure. I wouldn't assume encephalitozoonosis automatically. It just sounds like renal failure. The weight loss, the intake, the fact that her kidneys felt abnormal- all point to renal failure. Of couse the case isn't in front of me so I don't know, but that's just what it sounds like.

Subcutaneous fluids, so long as they're not overdone, will help her feel more comfortable. Don't overdo them, though, because it will stress the kidneys more.

I hope that she pulls through.

It definitely sounds like renal dysfunction, though. I hope that helps.

 

[Pipp]

Ivory, would antibiotics do anything?

And just as a caution, keep an eye out for mycotoxins in the feed. That can cause kidney issues I do believe.



sas ray:

 

[Ivory]

It depends on what would be causing the problems...if it's bacterial or otherwise some kind of microorganism, then possibly, but the situation would have to be completely assessed. If it's septecemia causing it, it depends on how far along she is, if anything can be done....

All the best..