Rabbit Savy Vets and Pain Meds

[Channahs]

Jodi was spayed today. This is the third bunny that our very rabbit savvy vet has spayed/neutered for us. All three times I've had to request Metacam or pain meds after the surgery. Dr. Paladino always seems so puzzled when I ask for them, but he always complies. Today he tried to send Jodi home after her spay with none! After all we went through with Bun Jovi, I'm a little upset that he did not offer nor give us any pain meds for her impaction. I'm almost inclined to believe that had she had some, we might not have lost her.

What is this reason behind a vet that doesn't even consider pain meds for bunnies after a spay? I managed to get three syringes (doses) for Jodi today, but might consider visiting our local vet to ask for a couple more.

 

[pani]

My vet won't give me pain meds following a spay/neuter, either. Thankfully Felix and Clemmie recovered with no problems, but it's something that continues to concern me. They always say to bring them back in if they're showing signs of being in pain, but I'd rather be sent home with them and not need them if necessary.

 

[Channahs]

Hunched down and not eating spells bun pain for me. Barry only needed a couple of doses after his neuter, but the girls, I would expect at least two or three days doses twice per day. Jodi has accepted a couple of Craisins this evening, but otherwise isn't interested in food. I'm giving her a dose in the morning and hopefully she'll eat...or else it's the critical care for her.

 

[Channahs]

Is there a place to buy meta cam online to keep in our emergency kits?

 

[Watermelons]

You would need a prescription, Just ask to buy a 10ml bottle from the vets.
Honestly, most animals don't NEED pain meds and bounce back with no issue. Metacam isn't anything more then taking Aspirin for us, not sure what Advil or Aspirin would do if we had the same procedure. It is nice to have and offer, and personally I would like something if it was me under the knife. Almost all critters are given an injection of something the day of the surgery, so that's in their systems for 24 hours. People are far more likely to screw up medicating their pets with pain meds vs animals that actually need it.
DO NOT GIVE METACAM TWICE PER DAY! You can fry their poor little kidneys. Metacam is dosed once per day. No more.
I do not think that just because the vet doesn't offer pain meds means hes not rabbit savvy.

 

[Channahs]

Thank you very much! I do appreciate your input. It wasn't actually Metacam that we were given, it was a tiny dose of something that started with a P I think (left the receipt and meds at their house). The vet tech said that they don't give Metacam for rabbits, but this instead. I'm sure that it's not going to take the pain away completely, but maybe at least take a little of the edge off. It is good to know not to give this twice per day.

 

[pani]

Ah, I forgot about that 24 hour pain injection, Watermelons; my vet did mention that too.

Hope the rest of Jodi's recovery goes smoothly!

 

[Channahs]

Ugh! Jodi has a hate out for me. I'm the one that put her in the box and took her to that terrible place. She's refusing to eat more than a little bit of banana and I saw her snack a tiny piece of broccoli. When I try to administer her antibiotics, I get boxed. I did trick her into having some pain meds this morning on a small piece of banana. However, I really don't know how to get her to take the antibiotic. I'm afraid to burrito her because of the fresh incision. All I am getting is bunny butt. She wants absolutely nothing to do with me.

 

[Channahs]

Success with the antibiotic on banana! As long as I step away from her view. Jodi has lost her trust of me. She wants nothing whatsoever to do with me. She flicks her tail since I'm sure feet flicks would be painful just yet. She still likes Robbie though lol. I hope she doesn't mistrust me forever.

 

[Watermelons]

May I ask why is she on antibiotics? Was there an infection of some sort you mentioned in another topic or post?
Antibiotics shouldn't be given as "preventative" measures for routine procedures like spays and neuters. That simply helps create antibiotic resistant rabbits who when really need the abx will find they wont work properly.

 

[Channahs]

I suppose it's as a prophylactic. All 3 of ours that he's spayed/neutered have gone home with 5 days 2x per day.

 

[Watermelons]

So their sent home with totally unnecessary antibiotics instead of pain meds... Maybe questioning how animal savvy he is instead of just bunny savvy might be a better question. Antibiotics can potentially upset tummys too which.could add to lack of appetite issues post surgical bunnys all ready have. Hmmm. I dont know what this guys likr diagnostically but id personally be looking around for a new vet if thats what happened to me.

 

[Channahs]

I'll look on the bottle and paperwork 9n the morning when I go over to get a name of the meds.

 

[Channahs]

The pink stuff she was given was SMZ TMP liquid. She's only had 3 doses. Really should I discontinue this? Now I'm really confused. She's going to get the pain med regardless.

 

[Watermelons]

Well you've started them, you might as well finish them.
If you are going to go and ask for pain meds, you might as well see if they will sell you a small 10ml bottle of Metacam as well, might be nice to have emergency pain meds on hand for tummy issues along with gas drops and such. But please don't over do the pain meds, if shes eating something and her gut is moving well then she doesn't need a whole lot of anything except time and quietness.
http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-64007/smz-tmp-ds-oral/details
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24387277
For future reference (for everyone reading this) Do not give your animals antibiotics unless there is an infection present, or there is a high likely hood of one starting (for example a large 1" x .25" deep cut on a dogs foot, Dental procedures oh the bacteria in mouths love fresh wounds and holes, very technical surgeries like pin placements where you're actually going quite deep into frequently used muscle and bone, etc) It should not be given for spays/neuters, as long as the vet did the procedure properly and it was done in a sterile environment (if it wasn't then its definitely time for a new vet asap!). You could always ask to take some home INCASE but do not start unless something appears. It is ideal to have the vet swap the site and do a culture to determine the type of bad bacteria present to prescribe the correct type of antibiotic necessary. Obviously for human and animals alike, the less drugs and medications used, the better. So if you or your animals don't NEED pain meds or antibiotics, don't take them (like people with coughs and colds going to the clinic or hospital for medications... no no no!) Not only do these medications help create antibiotic resistant bugs (especially if taken as a precaution or a general abx is prescribed instead of doing testing to determine bacteria) but its doing unnecessary harm to body organs in a potentially sensitive animal (here comes the debate on do we do a blood panel before surgery or not?) Old arthritic dogs in pain with kidney problems cant have metacam because it will zap whats left of their poor kidneys. (see the 2nd link posted above)

It really all comes down too... If you don't NEED it? Why are we taking it?

Just seems silly for this vet to give antibiotics (unless they royally messed up the surgery or really had to dig around inside her to find her bits, in which case they should have told you this happened) and then not even a day or 2 of pain meds. Bit of backwards thinking? At least its a bunny safe antibiotic, but id question their total animal savviness.

Just keep the little girl eating and drinking and quiet for the next 2 weeks while she heals

 

[Channahs]

You're right Watermelons. Any type of Sulfa antibiotic stands the chance of making for an upset tummy. It's only been since Monday, but she has been reluctant to eat anything more than a slice of banana, and she will take a Craisin. I did catch her eating some hay yesterday, and she's had some cilantro and parsley, but she's off her pellets for the moment. Jovi was eating greens in her carrier on the way home. This little one seems to be a bit touchier. I went on a poop hunt this morning to confirm that there was output. I had to shake out her fleece to find them, but I did find a good handful. Not all uniform, but I expect it's early and those will shape back up. She's actually had very little of the antibiotic, (2 doses to be exact - I know I said 3 earlier, but it's only two) and I think that I'll just put it in the fridge and forego. If we should need it, there it is. I did give her a dose of the pain med yesterday morning, and again this morning. Hopefully without the tummy irritating sulfas and the pain med to take the edge off, she'll start eating more.

Now we just wait for her to heal and come around to trust us again. Although that irritated little tail-twitching at me is almost funny. :bunnybutt:

 

[Channahs]

Annnnd I'm just getting back from checking on Jodi. She ate her greens like a champ tonight and she's really been into the hay. I fed her the greens from my hand to help re-develop our good relationship. She also took one of her cookies (I bake them from pellet fines and timothy hay fines with a little banana and organic blueberry/applesauce to bind the dough) and a Craisin! So little girl was hungry! I'll probably give her one more day of pain meds in the morning. Phew! I feel better.

 

[JBun]

I know that in some instances an antibiotic will be needed, but as far as I'm aware it should only be prescribed if there is an actual indication of infection(heat, swelling, redness, oozing, etc), or a real concern that infection may occur due to difficulties during the spay, in which case the vet should have discussed these things with you like watermelons mentioned. In the last 9 spays and neuters that were done on my rabbits, not one was given an antibiotic, and all were sent home with pain medication.

A vet that doesn't automatically prescribe or offer take home pain meds for a rabbit after a spay/neuter, comes down to inadequate rabbit knowledge and lack of current information regarding rabbits and the necessity of pain relief. I would have real concerns with any supposed 'rabbit' vet, that doesn't prescribe pain medication for post spay, or at least suggest it . If I had just had a hysterectomy, I know I would insist on having pain medication to take home. Metacam may not alleviate the pain altogether, but if given at an adequate dose, it will at least take the edge off, and that is an important part of getting a rabbit experiencing pain, eating again.

I will say that my experience with the frequency of dosing for metacam is different. All of my recent rabbit spays in the last year, were given a twice daily dosing. My most recent spay was at a vet that I consider very experienced with rabbits, and dosage was about 0.5mg/kg twice daily. And from what I can determine from my research, twice daily dosing of rabbits seems to be fairly common now, with what I believe are experienced rabbit vets, and where the rabbit has no indication of kidney problems. I think this may be due to studies conducted that indicate that meloxicam is quickly metabolized and eliminated from a rabbits system, and that higher and more frequent dosing is needed than is used for cats and dogs and that has been previously used for rabbits in the past, to reach adequate levels for pain relief.

Though since you weren't given metacam, this doesn't apply. Not sure what you were given though, unless it was piroxicam, though this will be the first I've ever heard it actually being used for a rabbit, and dosing will be completely different if this is what it is. If not, hopefully what you were given is safe for rabbits. One important thing is to make sure to give the pain med with food, to reduce chances of it causing gastric irritation.

I don't know if your vet is rabbit savvy or not, not being the one there dealing with the vet. But just based on the information you have provided in this thread and other threads, I wouldn't consider the vet very rabbit savvy, and if possible would try and find a better vet in the future. Just me

That's great she's eating some. Just went through this 3 weeks ago. I know how stressful it is to get them eating again.

Love when they waggle their little tails... even if they are doing it cause they're annoyed

 

[missyscove]

For a long time there was a school of thought that said we should keep animals in pain after surgery to restrict their movement so they don't tear their incisions open, etc. Now the school of thought leans much more towards relieving as much of their pain as possible and using physical barriers to restrict their movement. I agree that antibiotics should not be required following a routine spay or neuter and I also agree that I'd definitely like to see some pain meds go home. Metacam can be dosed once or twice daily, but usually the same amount is given in total, just spread out into two separate doses which gives you a more even level of the drug in your bloodstream over the full 24 hour period.

Channahs, where are you located?

 

[Channahs]

I'm located in Benton, Arkansas, just outside of Little Rock. This vet is listed under the bun savvy vets here. For all intents and purposes, I find him to be very knowledgeable about rabbits, at least for all I've learned. Perhaps he is old school? He is also listed as an exotic vet. When I went to pick up Jodi, there was a lady with a cane toad in the waiting room lol! I know that there is at least one more practice in N Little Rock that is recommended by our local rescue. Arkansas Pet and House Rabbit Society. Maybe I should call them and quiz the tech or vet on their spay/neuter etc...

On a good note, little Miss Jodi is doing well. She's begging to come out, poor baby. She's eating and her poops look great.