rabbit covered in poo and lathargic (RIP)

[sbaxter]

Aw sooo sad but she had you cradling her in your arms and you really loved her so she was lucky !! Binky free and rest in peace :grouphug

 

[dittac]

thanks, i just hope her sister doesnt go the same way. as said, im consulting my vet about it

i cant imagine her without her sister

 

[Pipp]

dittac wrote:

when i found her she had loose stools on her fur, she was lathargic, let me pick her up, occasionally kicked out to get down. then when ive just come back with all the medicine she was sat up but wobblin, her head was wobblin from side to side, then she went to run off but was un co-ordinated and falling over, she then came to rest on the hay lay full length. i then cradled her in my arms about to give her the meds when she started taking sharp breaths, pausing about a minute in between. she did this for about ten breaths then stopped and was gone


as much as i dont want to, i will be takin her for a pm tomorrow if he will do it on a sunday

These symptoms are pretty much what happens when most rabbits are 'end stage', so it could have been anything.

Its good that you're getting a necropsy, it will help with not only your bunnies, but others.

Please keep us updated.

Condolences to you and her sister.


sas ink iris:

 

[dittac]

i took sister and the body of the other rabbit to the vets. he did a necropsy and it showed little bleeds along her intestine, which was a symptom of septicemia, that has come from either a bacterial or viral infection. Sister was lively, she had an injection to keep her gut going and was given some pro biotic paste, cant remember the name off hand. the vet said anti biotics could do more harm than good as they can removve the bacteria and not the toxins. she came home, and at 2pm was fine. when i came back at half 6, checked on her she had soiled herself and was lay lifeless, body flacid but still alive, i had her cradled in my arms and she died the same way as her sister did. to lose one of my first rabbits was hard enough but now both are gone im really questionin whether i want to continue keeping rabbits. i feel so responsible, though i dont know how this has happened as they all get cleaned regulary, i dont handle one then another, handlings been very minimal lately due to the weather. And they are never without a food supply.im scared to even go near them now for their sakes. Supportive care for them all now, repti boost in their water etc.



rip butter and squash, the hole youve left in our hearts is immense and will take a long long time to heal

 

[ra7751]

First, so sorry for your loss. It is always difficult.

The necropsy leads me to wonder how well your vet understands a rabbit digestive system if he didn't know what the "little bleeds" were. Those are gastric ulcers....not septicemia and not a virus. Gastric ulcers are usually the result of irritation in the gut cause by a rapid change in pH due to a die off of the beneficial bacteria. The body will produce mucus, usually green or yellowish-green in color, that will many times be surrounding the fecal material in an effort to "buffer" the intestinal walls from the irritation of the harmful bacteria. The die off of the beneficial bacteria is bad for several reasons. First, the dead bacteria starts to decay. Next, the beneficial bacteria manages the bad bacteria....and without the good bacteria healthy and in place, that allows a harmful bacteria, usually Clostridium, to grow. E Coli may also be cultured. The gastric ulcers start to form at the climate in the intestinal tract starts to radically change. These gastric ulcers are why gut motility drugs are so dangerous. The contractions induced from these drugs can easily perforate an ulcer....and that is always fatal. These ulcers can rupture without the stimulation from the motility drugs. And the drug given to keep your other rabbit's gut going is a motility drug....not appropriate in rabbits. I have been working rabbits for over 30 years....there will never be a motility drug used on any of my rabbits. I consider those drugs to an a "win win" for a vet that doesn't understand the rabbit GI. If the rabbit survives, the doctor is a hero. If it dies, well....it was too late for the drug to work. In reality, motility drugs are not the proper response.

Most vets do not truly know how to respond to this condition. I am posting this in an effort to educate others. The response has to be quick and pointed. These bacterial imbalances can cause death within 72 hours if not contained. My first response is hydration...orally and SQ or IV. We use an antibiotic known as Metronidazole. Clostridium is an anaerobic bacteria and this drug is effective against that type of bacteria. Metronidazole is also an anti-inflammatory and helps to relieve pain in the GI. I have recently began using a horse product known as BioSponge. It is designed for foundering horses. The guts of horses and rabbits are very similar. This product has been clinically shown during in vitro testing to be able to filter and bind almost all of the enterotoxins produced by Clostridium. We have had wonderful successes using this product in wildlife....particularly Eastern Cottontails and Gray Squirrels.

And I don't think I would be using a reptile probiotic...and I don't use anything in the water. Only makes contaminated water...and that is a breeding ground for bacteria. I would not allow any motility drug to be administered. I have some real concerns here about overall quality of vet care. Hope there is more to the story....but from your post, I might would seek a second opinion about future care.

Randy

 

[dittac]

ra7751 wrote:

First, so sorry for your loss. It is always difficult.

The necropsy leads me to wonder how well your vet understands a rabbit digestive system if he didn't know what the "little bleeds" were. Those are gastric ulcers....not septicemia and not a virus. Gastric ulcers are usually the result of irritation in the gut cause by a rapid change in pH due to a die off of the beneficial bacteria. The body will produce mucus, usually green or yellowish-green in color, that will many times be surrounding the fecal material in an effort to "buffer" the intestinal walls from the irritation of the harmful bacteria. The die off of the beneficial bacteria is bad for several reasons. First, the dead bacteria starts to decay. Next, the beneficial bacteria manages the bad bacteria....and without the good bacteria healthy and in place, that allows a harmful bacteria, usually Clostridium, to grow. E Coli may also be cultured. The gastric ulcers start to form at the climate in the intestinal tract starts to radically change. These gastric ulcers are why gut motility drugs are so dangerous. The contractions induced from these drugs can easily perforate an ulcer....and that is always fatal. These ulcers can rupture without the stimulation from the motility drugs. And the drug given to keep your other rabbit's gut going is a motility drug....not appropriate in rabbits. I have been working rabbits for over 30 years....there will never be a motility drug used on any of my rabbits. I consider those drugs to an a "win win" for a vet that doesn't understand the rabbit GI. If the rabbit survives, the doctor is a hero. If it dies, well....it was too late for the drug to work. In reality, motility drugs are not the proper response.

Most vets do not truly know how to respond to this condition. I am posting this in an effort to educate others. The response has to be quick and pointed. These bacterial imbalances can cause death within 72 hours if not contained. My first response is hydration...orally and SQ or IV. We use an antibiotic known as Metronidazole. Clostridium is an anaerobic bacteria and this drug is effective against that type of bacteria. Metronidazole is also an anti-inflammatory and helps to relieve pain in the GI. I have recently began using a horse product known as BioSponge. It is designed for foundering horses. The guts of horses and rabbits are very similar. This product has been clinically shown during in vitro testing to be able to filter and bind almost all of the enterotoxins produced by Clostridium. We have had wonderful successes using this product in wildlife....particularly Eastern Cottontails and Gray Squirrels.

And I don't think I would be using a reptile probiotic...and I don't use anything in the water. Only makes contaminated water...and that is a breeding ground for bacteria. I would not allow any motility drug to be administered. I have some real concerns here about overall quality of vet care. Hope there is more to the story....but from your post, I might would seek a second opinion about future care.

Randy

i will print your post off and show it to my vet, see what he thinks. So does septicemia not cause blood clots on the intestines then?

im not quite sure as to what you mean by more to the story? feel free to pm me your questions..

from what you have read of my post and from what you think this may have been, is there a big threat to my other rabbits or not?

i find it quite hard to understand your post, probably because though i read my books im not up on all the terms, and find it hard to digest, especially when my head is spinnin from the horrible weekend ive had.


as for the repti boost in the water, i have used it before, with great success in gettin rabbits feeding again, and have ensured the water is changed daily and the bottles cleaned between uses
i do appreciate your input though

 

[ra7751]

The "more of the story" is something I see ina lot of situations. And I was personally guilty of this early on when I started rescuing and did things based more on emotion than for medical reasons. And this isn't intended to slam anyone. But sometimes we don't get or hearall the information that is available during an emotional crisis like you have unfortunately experienced. I remember the first time I found out about renal failure in a special rabbit...it floored me and I didn't fully understand what was happening. Sometimes the vet (or doctor with human medicine) will sanitize an explanation as much as possbile to spare their client/patient from additional emotional stress. Sometimes the doctors don't explain things completely because they think we won't understand....and when you combine all these technical terms along with the emotions that are naturally felt....there is many times more to the story. I have many times talked with people about the loss of a beloved animals some time after the event....when they feel comfortable. I am available to these people if they feel the need to discuss the circumstances and possibilities of what had happened. Like with most everything else in animal medicine....there are pieces of the puzzle to put together to get the "big picture".

As far as the probiotic....the requirements of reptiles, birds and mammals pertaining to probiotics is somewhat different. While some components overlap, a dedicated mammal probiotic (even a non-dairy human probiotic) would be a better choice. The idea in using a probiotic is to support an acidic pH in the digestive system.

Randy

 

[Fynnagin]

Not to hi-jack this thread, but Randy what is the dose for Bio-Sponge? I now have some on hand but don't have a dose to go with it.

 

[tonyshuman]

Metronidazole is the same thing as Flagyl, by the way. For the other bunnies, I would get some kind of probiotic, and feed them hay, water, and normal pellets. Don't feed veggies if you don't normally, and don't feed anything with sugar in it for several days. The sugar can promote the growth of the bad bacteria. If they start to act strange, take away the pellets and give them just hay and water, and get them to the vet.

 

[sbaxter]

Am soo sorry to now read you`ve lost her sister too ! OMG so awful i hope they are binkying together up there,thinking of you and again you did all you could!!ink iris:

 

[Envyme]

I am so sorry for your loss. Hugs.

XOXO

 

[dittac]

tonyshuman wrote:

Metronidazole is the same thing as Flagyl, by the way. For the other bunnies, I would get some kind of probiotic, and feed them hay, water, and normal pellets. Don't feed veggies if you don't normally, and don't feed anything with sugar in it for several days. The sugar can promote the growth of the bad bacteria. If they start to act strange, take away the pellets and give them just hay and water, and get them to the vet.

i dont feed pellet i feed a dry mix, hay, readi grass, and veg

 

[tonyshuman]

I don't know what those things are--dry mix and readi grass? Are they like mixed hay?

 

[dittac]

dry mix...... erm, i dont know how to explain it lol its dry food..... not pellets...... its i suppose similar to hamster food in looks and consistency but made for rabbits.

readi grass is a type of grass, good for weight gain and the rabbits love it

 

[tonyshuman]

OIC. You probably shouldn't give them the dry mix. It sounds like it might have a lot of seeds in it, right? Those aren't good for a bunny's digestive system--it's not made to process seeds, it's much better at digesting grass, which is what pellets are made of. A lot of pet stores will say that mixed foods are good for bunnies, but it's not true.

The best thing you can feed is a lot of grass hay, a few pellets made of grass hay (not seeds or colorful pellets), and some veggies.

 

[dittac]

tonyshuman wrote:

OIC. You probably shouldn't give them the dry mix. It sounds like it might have a lot of seeds in it, right? Those aren't good for a bunny's digestive system--it's not made to process seeds, it's much better at digesting grass, which is what pellets are made of. A lot of pet stores will say that mixed foods are good for bunnies, but it's not true.

The best thing you can feed is a lot of grass hay, a few pellets made of grass hay (not seeds or colorful pellets), and some veggies.

no theres no seeds in the dry mix. i will have to try and take a picture of a handful tomorrow.my rabbits wont eat pellets, theyve always refused it. the majority of their diet is hay and grasses with veggies but they get the mix too