Questions About Baytril

[Pipp]

Hey science guys...

I think we need more information about resistance to antibiotics, in particular, Baytril. 

Is a young rabbit who has never been prescribed it before more likely to respond better?  

Or is it an inherited thing?  A young bunny bred from generations exposed to Baytril is still going to see resistance?  If so, how many generations of use does it take for resistance to Baytril to set in?  

How much of Baytril's ineffectiveness due to resistance and how much is due to the fact it just doesn't work on some bacteria?

Does location and standard practices enter in to it?  Like the difference between say a HRS center like Northern California where it's been the norm to prescribe Baytril for eons as opposed to the rural communities where they'd be more likely to use feed store concoctions like the  powdered stuff you put in their water?  (I forget the name).

And on that topic, feed stores all over the place sell cheap PenG which seems to get used a lot now, is that also in danger of becoming ineffective?

What are good antibiotic practices re: stopping/starting the meds? 

Questions questions questions.

 

[Maureen Las]

I don't know anything scientific about it but just my own experience.

I don't think the the resistance is inherited (I never thought of that possibility) although that concept is very interesting. I would guess that my ownrabbits ancestors havenot had a history of baytril use only becauseI do not have pure breeds and am in a rural area.

If a breeder used baytril extensively it would be very interesting to learn whether the offspring acquire resistance.

My experience on my buns is that it will work for possibly 1-2 years on simple URI.type infections .
Imay use it the first time for about a 2 week regime and the infection may not reoccur for another year; The 2nd time I may use the baytril for a 3 week round and the infection will not reoccur for another 6 months. The reoccurence of infections may get more frequent , maybe not in some rabbits.

The injectable definitely has a stronger effect although recentlyI realized that the vet here have consistenly underdosed it in rabbits and was dosing the injectable for dogs/cats; this is sad because ifI had known thisI could have upped Babette's baytril right in the beginning and not played the underdosing game of all her meds for so long.


Beau was on ciprofloxixn for a period of years ( same family as baytril) for years regularly for gum infections before it just became ineffective and I had to switch to bicillin.
I am sure that Beau will soon become resistant to bicillin andI may need to go with something like chlorampenical.

I have treated a rabbit with baytril once and never had an infection occur (yet!)
Iknow that Randy states that rabbits have built up resistance to baytril so he may have the answers to this one; if the infection is not a severe oneI have found it an effective drug in a rabbit who has never taken it beforeand/or does not have a severe infection or abscess.
Very intereting topic Sas

 

[tonyshuman]

Quick comment right now: the resistance occurs in the bacteria. The rabbit isn't resistant to the drug, the bacteria in the rabbit causing the infection are resistant to it. If a bunny gets an infection with a baytril-resistant bacterium once, and that bacterium is present at really low levels in the body forever. The bacteria that have the resistance gene can then pass that gene to other bacteria that show up in the rabbit later. Some bacteria do lateral transfer of genes from one living bacterium to another.

 

[Maureen Las]

tonyshuman wrote:

Quick comment right now: the resistance occurs in the bacteria. The rabbit isn't resistant to the drug, the bacteria in the rabbit causing the infection are resistant to it. If a bunny gets an infection with a baytril-resistant bacterium once, and that bacterium is present at really low levels in the body forever. The bacteria that have the resistance gene can then pass that gene to other bacteria that show up in the rabbit later. Some bacteria do lateral transfer of genes from one living bacterium to another.

I understand that it is bacterial resistance but did not specifically state that...
but is bacterial resistance to a certain drugpassed on from a doe to offspring???
Kits can have latent but potential bacterial infections passed on in utero

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

antibiotics,used to kill/control bacterias,--,when used as the magic bullet,,for viruses,,etc..can and will be ineffective when needed for a real emergency,,--you now have to use the big gun-(thank you-randy)-or-stronger antibiotic to get the job done../.as for mothers/mothers milk,,antibodies,immunities,,will be passed on the the babies,,to give them an edge on life.//.everything-everyone- is still subject to aquiring/catching--these dreaded bacterium,however the severeity will be lower--in theory,,-as far as affecting dna--i don,t believe so,,nice theory though,,.the magic bullet...anyway thats my take on this ...sincerely james waller

 

[jcottonl02]

tonyshuman wrote:

Quick comment right now: the resistance occurs in the bacteria. The rabbit isn't resistant to the drug, the bacteria in the rabbit causing the infection are resistant to it. If a bunny gets an infection with a baytril-resistant bacterium once, and that bacterium is present at really low levels in the body forever. The bacteria that have the resistance gene can then pass that gene to other bacteria that show up in the rabbit later. Some bacteria do lateral transfer of genes from one living bacterium to another.

:yeahthat:

Couldn't have put it better.

Random mutations occur in any species, and can either be advantages and these organisms survive and pass on these advantagous genes due to Natural Selection, or can be disadvantagous and the organism will die and not pass on their genes.
If a strain of bacteria randomly mutates and it happens to be an advantageous mutation which allows the bacteria to become immune to certain drugs, then this bacteria thrives, reproduces, and then you have a new strain of resistant bacteria.

That's why a number of antibiotics are often used- to prevent any bacteria that DO become resistance to one antibiotic, from surviving and breeding. Even if they become resistant to one, there are a few others that will kill them off. So this prevents resistant strains for as long as possible.

It is nothing to do with the rabbit itself, or it's gene, just whichever strain of the bacteria it happens to catch.

Jen

 

[tonyshuman]

Sorry, I meant to put in a longer reply after that one. I think the does can pass the bacteria that contain the mutation on to their offspring because they are in contact. Any bunny that's in prolonged contact with a bunny that carries resistant bacteria can get those bacteria, and then they can pass on the resistance gene to other bacteria present in their system, etc. I would also think that a bunny that's having an active infection could more easily spread the resistant bacteria to the bunnies around it.

I don't know about bacterial infections in utero. For a long time medicine thought that the inside of the body cavity (at least the part that's not connected to a tract that goes to the outside, like the intestines) was sterile. A bacterium has to get in from the outside to be inside the body. However, I would imagine that a female rabbit has bacteria in her uterus, because it's ultimately connected to the outside. Those bacteria can get to the babies as they develop. I know things like syphilis are often transferred to kits while they're being born (the bacteria are present in the birthing canal) and in the nest from the mother.

The babies can also get the bacteria that are present in the mom from latching on to her nipples (skin has pasturella, pseudomonas which is a yeast, etc), from the mom licking them and breathing on them, and from being around the mom's poop.

That's how I imagine resistant strains of bacteria are passed from mother to offspring. I don't think that the resistant bacteria the dad carries will get to the babies. However, every individual's immune system is different in some genes. These small differences are inherited, so if the dad or mom carries a susceptibility to a certain kind of bacteria because of these immune genes, the offspring might be more prone to a certain kind of infection throughout their life.

In an off-topic but interesting thing I learned, humans can somehow detect which set of these immune genes other humans carry, maybe through scent. People tend to seek out other people that have a very different set of the immune genes for romantic relationships. This helps us avoid inbreeding and allows people to give their offspring the largest possible component of different immune genes, so they can survive better.

Hope this helps.

 

[Maureen Las]

Thanks Claire and Jen,

When Randy would say that baytril is not an effective drug because bacteria have grown resistant to it due to over prescribing. I did not know exactly what he meant .



I could only see my individual and unrelated rabbits grow resistant to it ( meaning the bacteria in their bodies) if it had been prescribed multiple times for a short time or if it had been underdosed many times. What I did not understandis that the resistancecould be a genetic thing.

SoI might think that since I am basically in a rural area and most of my rabbits have been adopted from the shelter and were strays from farms etc. and certainly not from intentional breeding that possibly many of my rabbits would not have a resistant gene to baytril or many other drugs because I doubt whether my rabbits ancestors were cared for in any meaningful way and may not have been exposed to any vet care at all.
Am I on the right track in in my thinking?

 

[Maureen Las]

..and to add to that I think vets have prescribed baytil so often because it is so safe for the GI tract and probably not because it is the best drug for the job.

 

[cirrustwi]

I really like everything posted here. I have to agree with basically everything. From my experience, Baytril isn't overly effective in rabbits because it was the drug of choice for so long, however, that does not mean that it won't ever be effective again. As the bacteria change and mutate, the effectiveness of drugs change as well. (It's a lot like the over use of penicillin in humans, physicians laid off prescribing it constantly for a while and now, it's effectiveness is returning, but at the same time, the effectiveness of other drugs is declining.)

I have to say that while Baytril is still used to treat infections in a lot of exotics, one of the things I really dislike about it is how caustic it is. Baytril injections are very painful and if it is given orally and held in the mouth at all, it can cause damage to the oral cavity.

I've also seen an increase in the vets I work with and the ones I use, my reptiles see someone different, prescribing Baytril for different ailments. I believe it used to be used most frequently for respiratory illness, but it seems to still be fairly effective in the treatment of skin infections.

 

[ra7751]

An additional thought or two on the responses to Baytril. If it is used in rabbits, it seems to be more effective when injected. It is indeed caustic and can cause some skin necrosis at the injection point....but so does a lot of other injectables we use....including penicillin. That is why we always buffer the injection with fluids. Again, the benefit of the injectables (particularly penicillin) usually outweighs the minor skin abscess issues. And it's one of the reasons that injections should not be administered in the same spot all the time. As with many drugs used in rabbits, many vets attempt to treat using dog/cat protocols with drugs....and that doesn't always work in rabbit. In the rare times I use Baytril, I dose it quite differently than most vets would do. Most vets that I work with have all but abandoned Baytril in most small animals(cats should not receive Baytril under most situations). We do notuse Baytril in birds at all....for most infections they get Clavamox. The only species we see in wildlife that we still use Baytril is reptiles.

And certainly down the road the bacteria that have become resistant to Baytril will become resistant to the drugs we are currently using. In humans there are already reports of resistance to Azithromycin.....another case of over prescribing and improper use. I have the "sniffles"....have a "Z Pack". Hopefully over time that the bacteria will againbecome sensitive to the drugs they are resistant to now....and we better hope so since there aren't many new drugs in the "pipeline".

I have also read some reports in different medical publications that there is some research in not using antibiotics in any but the worst confirmed infections. Interesting stuff.

Randy

 

[cirrustwi]

ra7751 wrote:

And certainly down the road the bacteria that have become resistant to Baytril will become resistant to the drugs we are currently using. In humans there are already reports of resistance to Azithromycin.....another case of over prescribing and improper use. I have the "sniffles"....have a "Z Pack". Hopefully over time that the bacteria will againbecome sensitive to the drugs they are resistant to now....and we better hope so since there aren't many new drugs in the "pipeline".

I have also read some reports in different medical publications that there is some research in not using antibiotics in any but the worst confirmed infections. Interesting stuff.

Randy

My human doctor doesn't give antibiotics unless people have strep bacteria or something more threatening, generally. Most people are able to fight off infection with proper rest and hydration.

Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a problem throughout society in humans as well as animals. Antibiotics have simply been over prescribed.

 

[jcottonl02]

cirrustwi wrote:

ra7751 wrote:

And certainly down the road the bacteria that have become resistant to Baytril will become resistant to the drugs we are currently using. In humans there are already reports of resistance to Azithromycin.....another case of over prescribing and improper use. I have the "sniffles"....have a "Z Pack". Hopefully over time that the bacteria will againbecome sensitive to the drugs they are resistant to now....and we better hope so since there aren't many new drugs in the "pipeline".

I have also read some reports in different medical publications that there is some research in not using antibiotics in any but the worst confirmed infections. Interesting stuff.

Randy

My human doctor doesn't give antibiotics unless people have strep bacteria or something more threatening, generally. Most people are able to fight off infection with proper rest and hydration.

Bacterial resistance to antibiotics is a problem throughout society in humans as well as animals. Antibiotics have simply been over prescribed.

Oh yes :nod, and I have to say it seems to be partly/majorly our fault that so many resistant strains have come about.....
I really hope it doesn't become a problem for us....

Jen

 

[Pipp]

ra7751 wrote:

I have also read some reports in different medical publications that there is some research in not using antibiotics in any but the worst confirmed infections. Interesting stuff.

I was wondering about the advice I gave in this thread:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_post.php?post_id=769253

This was a rabbit with a possible UTI or genital infection and I questioned whether it could go away on its own.

The rabbit had swollen genitals, the swelling had gone down but he wasn't acting as lively as usual. Because the rabbit was prescribed antibiotic eye drops for an eye issue, I suggested asking the vet for a precautionary systemic antibiotic that might work for both.

My vet is big on precautionary antibiotics. And to an extent I agree, simply because a rabbit can't/won't tell you where it hurts. It would be nice to spend money on diagnostics, but sometimes a round of antibiotics and a prayer is all that's in the budget.

Personally I've stopped using antibiotics for Mister's sore hocks and they've cleared up just fine on their own. This is after surgery (while he was being neutered) to remove an abscessed area, oral or injectable antibiotics didn't produce great results.

And after losing a rabbit to a chain of events that likely started with a GI upset from licking spilled penicillin off of his fur, and my minor wheezers and watery eye buns aren't getting anything either, and they're fine.

Two somewhat unrelated notes: I was just reading a post on another forum about a rabbit that stopped eating and pooping and noticed in the necropsy report the vets had prescribed two or three different antibiotics (Baytril, Flagyl and I think something else), and I really wasn't sure why. Will that fall under this discussion?

And I am sporadically giving out eye ointment during bacterial watery eye flare ups, and its working, but that may not be that great, either. I know I should probably just do the ointment two or three times a day for a couple of weeks to try and totally wipe it out. Am I building a resistance this way?


sas :?

 

[Maureen Las]

Pipp wrote:

ra7751 wrote:

I have also read some reports in different medical publications that there is some research in not using antibiotics in any but the worst confirmed infections. Interesting stuff.

I was wondering about the advice I gave in this thread:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_post.php?post_id=769253

This was a rabbit with a possible UTI or genital infection and I questioned whether it could go away on its own.

The rabbit had swollen genitals, the swelling had gone down but he wasn't acting as lively as usual. Because the rabbit was prescribed antibiotic eye drops for an eye issue, I suggested asking the vet for a precautionary systemic antibiotic that might work for both.

My vet is big on precautionary antibiotics. And to an extent I agree, simply because a rabbit can't/won't tell you where it hurts. It would be nice to spend money on diagnostics, but sometimes a round of antibiotics and a prayer is all that's in the budget.

Personally I've stopped using antibiotics for Mister's sore hocks and they've cleared up just fine on their own. This is after surgery (while he was being neutered) to remove an abscessed area, oral or injectable antibiotics didn't produce great results.

And after losing a rabbit to a chain of events that likely started with a GI upset from licking spilled penicillin off of his fur, and my minor wheezers and watery eye buns aren't getting anything either, and they're fine.

Two somewhat unrelated notes: I was just reading a post on another forum about a rabbit that stopped eating and pooping and noticed in the necropsy report the vets had prescribed two or three different antibiotics (Baytril, Flagyl and I think something else), and I really wasn't sure why. Will that fall under this discussion?

And I am sporadically giving out eye ointment during bacterial watery eye flare ups, and its working, but that may not be that great, either. I know I should probably just do the ointment two or three times a day for a couple of weeks to try and totally wipe it out. Am I building a resistance this way?


sas :?

I think that advising an antibiotic for the bun with the UTI was the right thing to do.


The bun in stasis who wasn't eating was probably prescribed an antibiotic as a preventative against clostridium. Flagyl would have been fine but some docs do give baytril ( they do here) and according to Randy it is not the correct drug of choice. Why several antibiotics were given is ? unless there was also an infection going on . The biosponge would have been fine.

I also have concerns re. eye meds.
But if you are going to use it give the correct dose (sometimes 2 x per day ) for a several weeks and then stop it altogether. The worst problem arises when you use a med either eye, oral or injectable antibiotic randomly ...like give it for 2 days and then just stop it altogether or giving it a few times a week. THAT will really give the bacteria a chance to develop resistance to the drug.

From my understanding long-term use of 1 med will eventually lead to resistance although some docs do something called "pulsing" which I believe is a drug given less frequently for an extended period of time. I do not have time to look this up right now but from what I know I do not understand the logic behind it as it seems as it it would be a way to almost guarantee resistance ..maybe someone else can enlighten me.
I would rather do preventative than nothing on a bun (right or wrong) only because I have seen infections in rabbits that simmered for awhile and then blew up into something terrible. I am afraid of that. I guessI would rather nip it in the bud.
But maybe I can learn something new ; this is a great topic sas
Maureen

 

[tonyshuman]

I think the problem in rabbits isn't over-prescribing medication, like it is in humans, but prescribing the wrong kind of medication. I know most doctors are starting to really not prescribe antibiotics for people who come in because a lot of what we have is viral. It seems that with bunnies, if a viral thing comes around, which seems to be rarer because they're kept in smaller groups with fewer contacts with the outside world, the viral stress on the immune system almost always leads to a bacterial infection because of the way a rabbit's immune system works.

I haven't heard of "pulsing", should be interesting to learn about.