Question about Vit C

[BEAUKEZRA]

My Bernie is a "charlie" and has the megacolon syndrome. I was reading that Vit C helps bunnies with sensitive stomachs and I was just wondering how exactly it helps?

Every few months or so he gets constipated and I give him simethicone and/or pumpkin and then he's back to himself within a day. He wouldn't take a treat this morning so I knew his constipation was back and he looked so uncomfortable. I gave him simethicone and a little pumpkin before I left for work but I don't get home until Midnight. If he hasn't pooped I will give him more pumpkin. I will take him to the vet tommorrowif he doesn't poop by then but will the Vit C help him from becoming constipated?

Like I said we go thru this every 3-6 months and he always manages to get his mega poops out with a little help. I don't give him vegetables (except for occasional parsley) because it makes it worse and he always eats a lot of hay. I can't wait to see some poop when I get home ray:

 

[seniorcats]

I can't find any info on Vitamin C helping digestion. I did find this information at the Massachusetts HRS site that indicates bunniesdon't need supplements.

Vitamin supplements are not necessary in the healthy rabbit. Rabbits not only get these nutrients from the hay and fresh foods, but also produce their own vitamins, such as vitamins C, B-complex, and K in their cecotropes which they then re-eat and digest. (See the section called Night Droppings). In fact, the indiscriminate use of vitamins may lead to overdosage and serious disease. In addition vitamins added to the water can cause the rabbit to not drink sufficient amounts of water due to the bad taste and can actually cause more rapid bacterial growth. Use additional vitamins only under the supervision and advice of your veterinarian.

from Dr. Dana Krempels http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2008/2/mini-lop-diet.htm

 

[Pipp]

Vitamin C consumption in rabbits is definitely a grey area.

One veterinary manual says: "Although rabbits synthesize vitamin C, there is evidence that vitamin C requirements rise during periods of stress when plasma ascorbic acid has been shown to decrease significantly."

I read somewhere else that the levels of enzymes needed to process Vitamin C are seasonal. I've also seen an opinion that says administering exogenous (external)Vitamin C can impair the body's own ability to synthesize it.So who knows.

But it is a component in Critical Care, so I suspect it's there for a reason.

I believe papaya tablets are a good source of C... so are a lot of veggies like spinach and kale. And of course fruits.

I'd guess Vitamin C in moderation during times of stress (molts, GI slowdowns, etc) is worth a try.



sas :bunnydance:

 

[ra7751]

The use of ascorbic acid (Vit C) in rabbits is controversial. Generally speaking, rabbits do not need supplemental Vit C for body functions (unlike guinea pigs that do need supplements) However, I do use Vit C here sometimes for digestive or urinary issues. The way it works it to change the pH. I see in many trusted publications where it states that "unlike a cat, a rabbit's gut should never be acidified"....and then the next statement touts the benefits of using acidophilus. That blew the author's credibility right there. The pH in a healthy adult rabbit should be in the 1-2 range. If it changes, all sorts of problems can occur.

As Pipp noted, Critical Care does contain Vit C along with strains of acidophilus. This is in response to the fact that we know a rabbit that ishaving issueswill have an altered GI pH....this will help stabilize the pH. Vit C is water soluble and the excess will be excteted in the urine. Personally, if I were dealing with your situation, I would closely examine the nutritional protocols you are using and if I used any supplements to this rabbit...it would most likely be a well known probiotic such as Bene-Bac either used alone or in combination with Critical Care. The use of one or both of these products will most likely help your situation.

And in a non-professional opinion type statement.....I really don't buy the claim that megacolon is a disease in itself. I think it is possiblysecondary to something that is being overlooked....like a parasite or possibly a rogue bacteria. There is one bacteria that is pretty much overlooked (but it's also very difficult to isoate)by all that can cause some interesting problems. We have cultured that bacteria here in a rabbit....and ask the lab for a "redo" since we had never seen that bacteria in a rabbit before. Nothing professionally documented on that....justa personal observation. And also just another personal observation...if I have something happening at fairly regular intervals...I chart it so I can see trends....like life cycles.

Randy

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

Ok he still hasn't pooped. I'm starting to freak out now. This morning I gave him some more simethicone and pumpkin. About an hour ago I gave him some benebac and pedialyte but now I'm at work until midnight and my husband won't be home until 6pm. Does anybody know anything about Laxatone? I bought some of that too but I don't want to use it until I know more about it. I don't want to do more harm than good. Of course my vet isn't open today so I'll have to call them tomorrow. I can't lose my Bernie!

 

[ra7751]

Very familiar with Laxotone. It is designed to be used in a cat....an obligate carnivore. The dynamics of the GI betweeen rabbits and cats is totally different. When used in rabbits, the Laxotone tends to compact and dehydrate the ingesta in the gut.....the exact opposite of what you need. Simethicone can also be constipating when used in situations like this. I prefer hydration and movement. I normally administer fluids...and offer large leafy greens to help with hydration. Movement can also stimulate the gut....but if the movement has to be forced, do so in moderation to prevent undue stress. I am also totally opposed to using GI motility drugs in anysituation involving a rabbit.

Just a side note from personal experience.....don't get too stressed as this will be picked up by your bunny and can stress him. I know, easier said than done. But I have had rabbits here that didn't poop for days as we worked thru GI issues. The reason the word is out to panic when they don't poop every few hours is based in fear. People just didn't pick up on the markers their rabbits had been showing for quite some time....like days and by the time they noticed, it was too late. The key is to catch situations like this early (which you obviously are always on the lookout for) and execute an effective treatment plan. I base all my GI motility issues around hydrations.

Randy

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

Thank you Randy. I guess I should stop the simethicone and just keep giving him the pedialyte. I heard his stomach gurgling last night so I thought the simethicone would relieve some of the pain if he has gas. He's not eating so should I continue to give him the pumpkin and I also have some syringes of baby food? I've also been rubbing his belly but he gets annoyed with me after a while. I don't know where to get the Critical care if I need that. How long should I wait before I bring him to the Vet not that I have a lot of confidence that they'll know what to do either. Thank you for the help.

 

[ra7751]

If I were in your position, I would get to a vet. Even if the vet is not rabbit savvy, there is a network they can use called "VIN". They can get good information.

If the gut is gurgling, you might try some heat. With wildlife, heat is always a good thing. And with domestics, many times their body temp will drop with GI issues. I would suggest a heating pad placed on the lowest setting. Put the heating pad on top of a counter, table, etc. and place a towel over it. Then put you rabbit's house over part of the heating pad. By only heating part of the bottom, it will allow him to move away from the heat if it gets too hot. And monitor him often as the pads can cause serious burns if it gets too hot. I would keep the pedialyte going. Offer the pumpkin in moderation. You don't want to build up too much pressure in the GI until things start to move. I would try to get some in him....but don't force the issue too much.

In one of the few unscientifically proven treatments that I use (and really prefer to use clinically proven protocols_....I use fresh squezzed pineapple juice...I cut the real piece of fruit and squeeze the juice. There is a lot of debate on both side on if this is really an effective treatment or not...and certainly the few lab tests performed have pointed to conflicting findings. But regardless, it has worked here....and I have combined Critical Care with the juice.

What part of Florida are you located? I have numerous contacts in the state....and have a rabbit that was transported up from Florida for treatment.

Randy

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

I live in Stuart Fl near West Palm Beach. I will call the vet in the morning if he doesn't poop by then and I'll keep giving him the pedialyte. His stomach troubles have never lasted this long which is why I'm so worried. He shares a bedroom with 2 other rabbits so he doesn't have a cage or anything but I will still try the heating pad idea. Thank you for your help.

Heather

P.S How often should I give the Benebac? I gave him about half a tube today (the other half ended up all over my arm).

 

[ra7751]

The Bene-Bac....a normal sized rabbit (4-5 pounds)....a gram or so a day should do. You can but the "one shots" in many pet stores but they are quite pricey for what you are getting. If you get the horse sized syringes....it is much easier to shoot it into a smaller 1cc syringe rather than fight that large beast of a syringe. I prefer the powder which offers several attractive options for administering.

I will do some research on any contacts I have in your area. If I didn't have so many animals here....I would make a road trip myself.

Randy

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

:foreheadsmack:I was about to buy the powder but then I saw the little tubes and thought it would be easier. It wasn't easy. I really like my vet but I haven't had to go to him about any serious issues like this. I told my husband to give Bernie some Pedialyte when he gets home at 6:30 and then I'll give him some more when I get home at midnight. I am praying that my husband will call me and say "I see Bernie poops!"

 

[ra7751]

For me, powder works much better. I can send you to a site where you can get a pound shipped to you for less money than you can buy a few ounces in the pet store.

And you know you are rabbit people when you are on "poop watch". Go out to eat and talk poop. Call me when we have poop. Look in the litter box first thing in the morning. Trust me, been there...done that.

Randy

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

Well my husband called and he doesn't see any poop .

How much Pedialyte should I be giving him at a time?

 

[ra7751]

There is a test for hydration levels but generally speaking, 5% of body weight per dayis the acceptable norm in most cases when supplementing hydration.

Randy

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

I just got back from the vet. He gave me some Metoclopramide syrup, lactulose syrup and some critical care. I gave him the metoclopramide already but he's eating hay right now so I'm going to hold off on the lactulose and critical care. I'm relieved he's eating something. I'm sure I'll see some poops soon!

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

My husband just called me and he's spotted a large Bernie poop!

Yay Bernie! inkbouce::woohoo:yes::highfive::bunnydance:

 

[ra7751]

Just my non-professional thoughts on the treatment

Metaclopramide--->:censored2:

Lactulose--->:nono

Critical Care--->:clapping:

Keep in mind that I an not a vet....but I do not like the use of metaclopramide in a rabbit.....ever. And lactulose is an artificial sugar....not too high on that one either.Neither of those will ever be used on any of my rabbits as longas there is a breath of life in my body....and if it happens after I am dead....I will come back to haunt somebody. But just my personal opinion....nothing professional. Regardless...hope things go well.

Randy

 

[BEAUKEZRA]

May I ask why the Metoclopramide is so bad? I wasn't too sure about the lactulose anyway so I didn't give him any. I don't think he needs a stool softener. I just want to do the right thing for my baby.

 

[ra7751]

Again, non professional opinion here. But the gut motility drugs can cause severe and painful contractions in the gut. One of the drugs releases chemicals from the brain that causes GI contractions and the others stimulate the nerve endings in the intestinal tract. In some situations...such as a total blockage or in the case of a weak spot in the GI walls....like gastric ulcers that are so common during GI events...the contractions can cause some integrity issues with the GI tract. These drugs are used quite a bit in dogs, cats and humans as I understand it....but this is a rabbit gut and the dynamics in there are quite different. My doctors will not use these drugs in rabbits....and they don't even bring them up to me. My primary vet is as much against them as I am. I try to balance the potential risk (and there is risk in any medical treatment) as opposed to the potential benefit of the treatment. I can't quite see the benefitof using these type drugs in a rabbit...personally. Not trying to contradict a professional here by any means as I know this treatment is still in many of the manuals they use as reference. I just don'tlike these motility drugs at all. And not trying to repeat myself....but this is just my non-professional personal opinion based on my experiences with many GI issues.

Randy