Problems with Pine Shavings?

[kherrmann3]

Hello, I was wondering if anyone out there could give me some information about how pine shavings can cause rabbits to get sick? I was reading about elevated liver enzymes as a side-effect, but was wondering if there are any more symptoms? I have a three-year old Netherland dwarf rabbit (Toby), and he has had pine litter since I got him. He had pine shavings EVERYWHERE in his cage at the pet store, so I never thought about it as a bad thing. Right now, he only has pine shavings in his corner litter pan, and the rest of the cage has no litter in it (it's a plastic bottomed cage). He does not eat his litter, and I normally get bags of the shavings that have less dust than other pine shavings. I recently became worried because Toby has had mild diarhhea. I called the vet and they said it could be due to the hot weather. He is fine now (he got better in a day or two), and I was curious if this could be from the shavings? Any information would be appreciated!

 

[Maureen Las]

diarrhea would pobably not be related to the pine shavings.

The interaction between the oil in the pine shavings and the urine of the bunny cause fumes which are extremely unhealthy for the respiratory tract of the rabbit and/or would be toxic enough to elevate the liver enzymes.

 

[pla725]

Any recent change in diet?

 

[Striker]

If it's a hot day the cage will get stuffy. SO it can become aq unsafe area for your little bunny to breathe in. I had to remove the pine becuase he would get to hot. SO maybe a heat stoke can be a cause of pine, but might i add this is on hot (76+) days. In the winter my bunny sits in the pine all day.

 

[Maureen Las]

Pine shaving (and also cedar) are ALWAYS dangerous for all small animals whether it is a warm or cool day

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/1/liver-disease.html


http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

http://members.tripod.com/~antigonemeans/phenols.html

http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm#pine

if you are using pine shavings for your bun you are risking his health. There are other safer , inexpensive alternatives like wood stove pellets, baked pelled pine horse bedding (kiln baked),

yesterdays new, aspen shavings and carefresh ,feline pine etc are more costly but also fine.

 

[Flick]

I agree with angieluv! No pine shavings (or cedar) ANYWHERE! Not in the litter box, not on the floor, not in the cage, not in the HOUSE! Really!!!! No fooling!!! Get rid of all pine and/or cedar shavings.

Here's a video with an exotic vet discussing litters.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTT7Dr_pPbc[/ame]

 

[kherrmann3]

Toby hasn't really had much of a change in diet, he does eat slightly less than normal, but he goes through phases like that every once in awhile. The vet said not to be worried, and that the shavings are OK as long as they are in a well ventilated area. There is an oscillating fan that hits the hutch about every 20 seconds, which to my understanding would vent the fumes. The room he is in is not particularly hot. We normally have the air conditioning on or at least the fan I mentioned before.

Thank you for the information!

 

[JimD]

Wood shavings would not be my choice for litter, but if you use them you should use the kiln dried aspen shavings.

 

[NZminilops]

Yikes! Could this be why I find the room Sakura is in smells bad? She has a layer of newspaper, a layer of pine shavings and a layer of hay over that in her 3 litter trays.

Would her pee be interacting with the shavings and making a bad smell? I thought it was just that I wasn't cleaning the litter trays often enough or didn't have enough in there, I'm finding I have to dump the litter out daily in all three trays.

I knew there was a shaving that was bad, didn't realise it was pine :?, I'll get rid of them ASAP.

All the local breeders here use pine shavings in their hutches and for nestbox material, well all the ones I have visited anyway (and that's been many ), shall I let them know the dangers too? Gosh, poor Sakura, hope I haven't harmed her .

 

[Maureen Las]

Pnje shavings are dangerous

let them know the risks and that their are cheap alternatives which won't affect the rabbits health.

 

[NZminilops]

I just came across this, which pretty much says they are safe.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1155/Pine.html

Are there any articles that you know if that go against this that I can compare to the one I just posted?

 

[12354somebunny]

That's an interesting article, NZminilops! When I was reading up on pine/cedar shavings, I came across the usual warnings against their use. I've never read anything which said that pine/cedar shavings were OK. It will be interesting to see what other RO members have to say about this

For the record, I don't use pine/cedar shavings.. better safe than sorry, huh? I'm overprotective when it comes to my bunnies!

 

[Maureen Las]

It's an interesting article but read all the articles I posted in this thread Aug 24th.
There are multiple more articles available

Read a lot ,take all the info in and then decide.

I would prefer to be safe than sorry and am not the least bit convinced that pine shavings are indeed safe.
I would not advise anyone on this forum to begin to use pine and cedar.

I certainly am not|

 

[pamnock]

Ammonia emissions areone concern when bedding is wet. Studies have shown ammonia emissions were least from sand and pine shavings[suP] [/suP]compared with chopped newspaper and chopped corn stalks. Emission from chopped straw[suP] [/suP]treatment was not significantly different from either the pine[suP] [/suP]shavings or the chopped newspaper, chopped corn stalks, and[suP] [/suP]recycled manure.

This article states that kiln dried shavings are safe. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1155/Pine.htmlCertainly they are more safe than green shavings straight from the sawmill.

Personally, the aroma of cedar bothers me, so I'd never use it forsmall that are in close contact with it.

The verdict is still out on what is the best bedding. I prefer to go with the most natural option for my small pets - sterilized potting soil and peat moss. Peat moss also has antibacterial properties and helps to keep odor down.

Pam

 

[seniorcats]

Peat moss - I never thought of that, I think I will give it try. It should be much lighter weight and cheaper than what I've been using. Thanks!

 

[Maureen Las]

Kiln dried shavings are safe yet many manufacturers of these kinds of products do not specifically give enough info on the packaging for an unsophisticated consumer to be able to distinguish one product from another. They all look alike
I am afraid that articles such as the previous one will only confuse people into once again going back to the the dangerous pine shavings with pine oils that we have been teaching animal owners to avoid.
On some products like pelleted pine horse bedding I specifically researched the company and did learn that the pine is kiln dried thus removing the danger from the wood product.
Research any product that you are considering .

 

[Pet_Bunny]

Whatever you use, use only as much as you need, in the smallest box your bunny would put up with, so the bunny won't be exposed to any overwhelming odors that can emit from the litter. I have seen some cages filled with litter wall to wall and the bunnies living in it.

 

[pamnock]

angieluv wrote:

I am afraid that articles such as the previous one will only confuse people into once again going back to the the dangerous pine shavings with pine oils that we have been teaching animal owners to avoid.

The the washing and kiln drying process removes the oils and resins. This is what makes kiln dried pine superior to raw.

As far as I know, raw pine shavings are generally not retailed, and the difference is also easy to see visually. I used raw pine shavings for my horses, and bought truck loads directly from the sawmill. I have seen rare cases of horses having toxic reations to raw pine shavings (sawdust), but experience no problems with kiln dried.

Pam

 

[NZminilops]

I'm sorry if the article I posted would confuse anyone, but I was genuinly asking a question on the safety issue, not trying to upset anyone :?. If you don't question things how do you ever learn?

I would NEVER, leave any animals litter tray uncleaned for long enough for there to be an amonia build up, no matter what type of litter used. Sakura has 3 litter trays to choose from, and is in a well-aired room, and I empty at least two of them every second day, the one she uses the most once a day. I've seen pictures people have posted on here where they are using pelleted recycled newspaper as litter, and it doesn't get cleaned out for a week or more, I find that to be a tad on the gross side, surely amonia is capable of building up in that sort of situation?

When talking about the shavings debate with a friend, I compared it to how some people say the aspartamine in diet drinks causes cancer, yet others believe that to be total nonsense and say that there is no evidence to back it up.

I'm not a scientist obviously so I can't know for sure one way or another, but I enjoy researching and reading, so I thought I would post what I found.

 

[Maureen Las]

My understanding of this is the problem is not just ammonia build-up which can occur with even the safest litter but the chemical reaction that occurs between thecomponents in the urine and the phenols in the pine oil.