Pellet Only diet? (with some veggies)

[jcottonl02]

I'm not sure, but I think I missed the humorous part of this convo....:? ?

I think everyone here is entitled to their own opinion and their own views on rabbit diet ; if someone wants to choose an all-pellet diet, or a no-pellet diet, or a mixed then that is their own decision, and I am sure they are making it the best for their rabbit.

The bulk of my rabbits' diet is hay and vegetables, with a very small amount of pellets, just to ensure I know they are getting what they need. One weighs 4 1/2lbs, and the other weighs 6lbs. They both get just over an 1/8cup of pellets (slightly less for Benji because he's lighter) and a large salad of at least 3 different veggies a day (i guess this must equate to about 4 or more cups). Along with occasional fruit treats, and the occasional pinch of rolled oats (which they go crazy for! ). This diet works perfectly for them, in my opinion.

I do believe that a very small amount of pellets is a good idea, and unless you know exactly what you are doing on a pellet-free diet, to just add that little suppliment of pellets, to ensure those calories, fat and nutrients.

Jen

 

[elrohwen]

dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:

Happi Bun wrote:

dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:

They are not like horses, and I doubt horse owners feed them lots of fruit and veggies anyhow.

Actually, the rabbits digestive track is more similar to that of a horse. I've had horses for a big chunk of my life (even showed them). Their diet would consist mostly of a hay mix, which is the alternative to what they would eat in the wild (grass and other plant matter, long roughage in other words). They would also get a serving of high quality grain daily and time out in pasture to graze. Just like with rabbits, it's important to keep a horses digestive track moving. This is accomplished by providing long roughage/hay.

I do not believe in a strictly pellet only diet for rabbits. Pellets do insure they get everything they need nutritionally so I believe it should be a small part of the diet, but hay keeps the track moving and pushes any possible obstructions out of the way. To me a good diet has a variety of healthy foods. My rabbits diet is made up mostly of timothy hay, then a small amount of high quality pellets (Oxbow or Purina are great), then veggies/herbs.  

i agree with this. your diet is probably well researched and balanced too.

I'm not sure how you disagree with most of what I say, yet agree with Happi Bun who is promoting the same thing??? Unless you're being sarcastic, which isn't very helpful.

I'm not saying that the diet I feed is the only way to feed a rabbit, or that they cannot be perfectly healthy on a pellet and hay diet. The purpose of my post is to point out the large holes in reasoning in your post and the problem with some of your assumptions. Other rabbit owners are going to read this post and I wanted to get answers to the questions that your post brought to mind.

Btw, as far as HRS guidelines go, they site sources on the diet page and have not changed pellet amounts as far as I can see. http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-4/pellets.html

If you are going to quote the HRS and make claims about what they recommend, I would recommend reading their website first.

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

No not being sarcastic. As long as the rabbit is healthy, and the diet is thoroughly researched its fine. The thing is not all rabbits can handle that. Again it comes down to selective breeding.

I am not sure what you mean by loopholes. I am only sharing my experiences with feeding my rabbits, and the diet in question.

This was what I was talking about. I see they have changed it again. It also conflicts with the link you posted. They have two different diet recommendations going on at the same time. This is the one they added recently. Used to say if you are having problemswith the diet to contact them. I see they have replaced that with provide them with lots of hay and straw. And have also changed feed 1/2 a cup per five pounds of body weight, to 1/4rth, to 1/2 a cup of pellets per six pounds of body weight. The original also said to feed them 4 cups of veggies per five pound sof body weight. I remember that one because I knew a rescue worker at one time that had to adjust that because when she tried feeing it, her rabbits were getting many vegetables, and not enough nutriton from it. She upped the pellets to 3/4rths of a cup for her flemish giant, and a half a cup for the mini rex. Which is actually more ideal to feed. Yep I have read their website plenty of times.



http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/diet.html



I know if I were to feed 1/4rth of a cup of pellets to my six pound rabbits, plus all the veggies, they'd starve, become unhealthy and end up having all kinds of problems. Then again I have no clue on how to make sure they would be getting all the nutrition they would need either.

 

[elrohwen]

I don't see that the new link is much different - they suggest pellets from 1/4 to 1/2 cup, which is a bit more than before, but they also suggest proportionate to veggies (and are still recommending 2 cups of veggies). It seems almost exactly the same to me.

I'm still confused then why Happi Bun's diet is fine, yet you don't like the HRS diet?? That's what she is feeding.

I found some of the assumptions made in your previous post to be unsound, so I wanted to get answers and fine out where you were coming from with those assumptions. Like I said, I don't think there is only one healthy way to feed rabbits, but if we are going to discuss what is best I can't help but point out the loopholes in reasoning that may cause someone to feed one diet over another. In my mind, the major assumptions that stood out to me were that vets don't read research on diet, that feed companies do extensive research and know what is best for pet rabbits (as opposed to breeding rabbits), that a rabbit who *looks* healthy must *be* healthy long term, and that we have evolved rabbits to the point where they are perfectly adapted to what we want to feed them. I'm not denying that your rabbits get a good diet, I just wanted things to be clear for other rabbit owners reading and I didn't think it was clear where these assumptions were coming from or if they were accurate.

 

[LV426]

See the one thing I'm going to counter some of you on minimally is that rabbits can't handle greens. I think that greens like grasses and weeds and such are just fine. Like my pasture mix I grow in the yard and the dandelions. Rabbits can eat as much of that as they want and it won't harm them. But most people aren't growing pasture mix in their yard. They are going to the supermarket and that's where the problems come in. Grocery greens and vegetables have been genetically engineered to contain more sugars and be easier to digest for people. That's not necessarily a good thing for rabbits. Hell I'm not even sure they are good for people. Maybe the obesity pandemic isn't only from fast food but from genetically modified foods. I'm also cuntering the "pellets are evil" mindset. Pellets were created to balance out a diet of hay and grains that were initially being fed. To keep up condition and weight and prevent medical problems.

Even Meat Breeders need to have quality feed so their breeder rabbits can continue producing quality litters. Those breeders live longer than just a few months so saying that the meat industry only feeds pellets so they can fatten up rabbits for food is inaccurate at best. Not to mention that a lot of meat breeders are also show breeders.

Show breeders want the best for their rabbits just like a pet owner but I will tell you that showers have probably done 100 times the research that pet owners have because a pet owner just wants to feed their rabbit and play with it and don't expect any flashy coats and prize winning feats.


I also want to mention something about horses. Horses can not live and be healthy on grazing in a pasture alone. I'm sorry but it's not possible. First off if you let a horse graze freely in spring when the new growth is coming in you will kill your horse. They can't handle the sugars in spring growth and it gives them colic. Especially if they've been on a hay only diet all winter. Second, most pastures are not varied enough in the grasses grown to provide enough nutrition. Wild horses would travel hundreds of miles eating various foods as they go along. Eating everything from bark to grasses, seeds, weeds, and cactus. There's no way to provide enough nutrition in a pasture unless you specifically plant enough of a variety of foods for them. They need to be supplemented with hay and at least some grains depending on age. I'm saying this because I've had to be involved in enough rescues where people turned out their horse to eat the grass in the pasture because they were too cheap to go buy them horse feed and hay.
So to sum it up, Horses and Rabbits can not live on pasture (greens) alone.

 

[elrohwen]

I don't think anybody here recommended a no-pellet diet either, so arguing against that is kind of counter-productive to the discussion. Most of us are advocating a variety, which includes a large amount of veggies and hay, in addition to pellets. At the minimum, for a rabbit owned by someone who doesn't want to give veggies, myself, and some of the others here, are saying that hay is important in addition to pellets.

And I claimed that horses are fine on hay and pasture diets - I'm sorry if I implied that pasture only was fine, because that is not what I was saying. My point was that horses do not need supplements and grain unless they are doing extra work, nursing, need help maintaining weight, etc. Since the grass and hay they eat is the most important part of their diet and the bulk of it, it makes sense that these things would be the bulk of a rabbit's diet as well. I don't think I ever came close to implying that rabbits could live on greens alone. If you read my post, I was claiming hay should be the largest component of the diet, with pellets taking up the smallest portion, just as with horses, hay and grass are the most important with any grains coming in at the smallest portion. I think you are taking my comments out of context and I hope this has clarified some things.

I think it's also a fallacy to claim that pet owners do not care about the health of their animals as much as breeders. There are members of both groups who care more or less about this, but in the past few years the house rabbit population has grown and more and more people are extremely interested in the diet their rabbits are receiving. Pets in America, in general, have gained greater importance in the last 10-20 years and rabbits are no exception, so to say that pet owners don't care about the health or condition of their pets is not correct.

Claiming that the obesity epidemic among humans is caused be genetically modified vegetables, rather than poor diet choices involving high levels of fat and sugar is naive. I'd also like to see the research you have on this.

 

[LV426]

Sorry about the badwording thing. It was supposed to say Countering but I typoed. Oops.

No I don't have research to say that genetically modified foods are part of obesity but really if you look at it from an objective standpoint the foods we eat today are not the ones that we were eating 100 years ago. They have high sugar content and nutrition content. Even nutrition that we don't necessarily need. The same can be said for rabbits.

To me it seems like the anti-pellet people are just going to stay against pellets and the pellet people will stay pro pellets no matter what anyone says.

 

[elrohwen]

I guess I'm trying to bridge the gap here and point out that we're all advocating pellets are part of a balanced diet. There is a no-pellet thread going on and I didn't see anywhere there advocating that diet either. I think we all agree that they are a part of a balanced diet. We disagree on how large a portion of the diet they should make up. And since this thread was asking if a pellet only diet is ok, many of us were sharing our opinion that variety from hay and veggies, as well as pellets, is important.

 

[Violet Crumble]

jcottonl02 wrote:

I'm not sure, but I think I missed the humorous part of this convo....:? ?

I think everyone here is entitled to their own opinion and their own views on rabbit diet ; if someone wants to choose an all-pellet diet, or a no-pellet diet, or a mixed then that is their own decision, and I am sure they are making it the best for their rabbit.

The bulk of my rabbits' diet is hay and vegetables, with a very small amount of pellets, just to ensure I know they are getting what they need. One weighs 4 1/2lbs, and the other weighs 6lbs. They both get just over an 1/8cup of pellets (slightly less for Benji because he's lighter) and a large salad of at least 3 different veggies a day (i guess this must equate to about 4 or more cups). Along with occasional fruit treats, and the occasional pinch of rolled oats (which they go crazy for! ). This diet works perfectly for them, in my opinion.

I do believe that a very small amount of pellets is a good idea, and unless you know exactly what you are doing on a pellet-free diet, to just add that little suppliment of pellets, to ensure those calories, fat and nutrients.

Jen

I did not mean it as a derogotory statement.

When we can see our human nature with a light heart we can sometimes find humor in it. In this case, the human nature is to want to be right or to be contrary to one another even if we are discussing the exact same thing.

Perhaps a perfect example can be seen in the children's book Red Hat, Green Hat ( http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307165043/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 ). Two people (in in this case, birds) are arguing over the details of the exact same thing (the hat) simply because they see it from two different perspectives. It IS the same hat. Nothing core changes about it. The details are just described differently by each person, erm, bird.

What we are doing here is not really any different. Some say that a quality pelleted food is the base, others say it is a supplement yet we are giving our rabbits the same amounts of it based on there weights, activity, demands and then also giving them hays and veggies. So what's the difference? There is none. Why the long discussion? Because we all have different perspectives of the same thing the pellets.

If one would understand that the pellet is a nutritionally balanced blend of appropriate rabbit foods in highly concentrated, dry form, they will see their rabbit's diet as pellet based. To aid in understanding this for visual learners, read the label of your rabbit pellet bag, scoop out the recommended amount for the weight and lifestyle of your rabbit listed on the bag, put it in a bowl and add water. It will bulk up tremendously. Not only that but after reading the label and understanding it, you'll understand that it is highly nutritional and balanced.

If one would understand that hays and veggies make up the BULK of the same diet (pellets, hays, veggies) then they will see (literally see) that you give more hays and veggies than you do pellets so the bulk of their rabbits diet is, in fact, hays and veggies, right?

Both viewpoints are correct. The only differences are minor. If the diet you're currently using is working for your rabbit, awesome. Of course, you're going to recommend it to others. But understand that it is okay to accept that their will be variences in what others feed their rabbits.

Again, going back to a child's diet or intake of foods. As a mother of a very picky eater, that is now age 13, I can assure anyone, that as long as your child (or rabbit!) is eating *something* that resembes food that you know has the base nutrients he needs to sustain life AND is clearly healthy, there is NO need to worry. Really.

If the original rabbit in question only eats pellets, and nothing else, that is okay. If they are feeding their rabbit quality pellets (pet store stuff does not fall into this catagory unless it's Oxbow) so that they know he is getting the nutrients he needs to sustain life, they are following the feeding instructions on the bag, AND their rabbit is clearly healthy there is no need to worry. Really.

I'm loving this thread. It's good and lively and enjoyable as long as people are cordial. I like that we can learn a lot from each other if we make room in our minds to test different ideas (or perspectives).

 

[jcottonl02]

Ah I can see where you are coming from. But there are quite a lot of contrasting views here, which is great because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is a no 'perfect' diet for pet rabbits so I guess there will always be people who prefer one way, and those that prefer another.

It's also very confusing that we have two threads going at the same time with totally contrasting titles, but based on exactly the same thing lol! It would be much easier to merge the two together!

I'm always inclined to go with the House Rabbit Society recommendations, or at least use that as my base guideline. They obviously research thoroughly into what they do (hence the sources cited etc.) and are an extremely reputable source for rabbit care and diet. There are many great arguements for both a much lower pellet diet, and a much higher pellet diet, but I'm more inclined to sway toward the low pellet diet, just from my personal research, reading and life experiences with my rabbits.
Lots of Hay, lots of grass, veggies and pellets are my buns' every day diet, and that works perfectly for me but I know of many people here who give a pellet-only diet, and even someone who gives a no-pellet diet and both their rabbits appear equally healthy and happy etc.

It is a great discussion- a fabulous way to learn from eachother and perhaps even adjust our own rabbits' diets if we get more info we weren't aware of. I was adjusting my rabbit's diet for the first few years until I found the "right" one

Jen

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

jcottonl02 wrote:

Ah I can see where you are coming from. But there are quite a lot of contrasting views here, which is great because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is a no 'perfect' diet for pet rabbits so I guess there will always be people who prefer one way, and those that prefer another.

It's also very confusing that we have two threads going at the same time with totally contrasting titles, but based on exactly the same thing lol! It would be much easier to merge the two together!

I'm always inclined to go with the House Rabbit Society recommendations, or at least use that as my base guideline. They obviously research thoroughly into what they do (hence the sources cited etc.) and are an extremely reputable source for rabbit care and diet. There are many great arguements for both a much lower pellet diet, and a much higher pellet diet, but I'm more inclined to sway toward the low pellet diet, just from my personal research, reading and life experiences with my rabbits.
Lots of Hay, lots of grass, veggies and pellets are my buns' every day diet, and that works perfectly for me but I know of many people here who give a pellet-only diet, and even someone who gives a no-pellet diet and both their rabbits appear equally healthy and happy etc.

It is a great discussion- a fabulous way to learn from eachother and perhaps even adjust our own rabbits' diets if we get more info we weren't aware of. I was adjusting my rabbit's diet for the first few years until I found the "right" one

Jen

I agree. It was one whole thread up until two days ago. Don't worry, it had me totally confused too.

 

[jcottonl02]

Lol haha was it? I have been totally preoccupied with my exams so I haven't been on here as religiously as I was a month or so ago .

I think it's great actually that there are now two, very in depth discussions about both extremes of rabbit diet. Great info and really interesting.

Jen

 

[elrohwen]

I agree, Jen. An all pellet or a no pellet diet are definitely opposite extremes and I think discussing both in two separate threads is really helpful.

 

[jcottonl02]

While I personally would never advocate either extreme (even though they can be done perfectly healthily etc. etc.) is because I think you really have to know what you are doing. If someone is asking for advice about it, then they probably (yet) do not know enough to pursue it.

BUT it is great to see both extremes and get the experiences of those people who are knowledgable enough to feed those, as you can really see the benefits of both. Perhaps incorporate some of the opposite extreme to the diet you currently give, or move slowly towards one side or another.

It's much easier to see it in two different threads, so whoever split them- that was a great idea. But it did confuse me for a moment!!!!

In the end it's just about the rabbits. Whatever best you can possibly give. And that's what we are all trying to do here and I am honestly so thankful for this site. Every (new) rabbit owner should be forced to join!

Jen

 

[slavetoabunny]

I don't know how much this will benefit the discussion, but just wanted to add my :twocents worth based on my 8 years of experience.

I spare nothing to get my bunnies the best in both hay and food. I buy American Pet Diner pellets and Kleenmama's hay. This is for both my own two and the three fosters.

Each day, all of my buns get 1/4 of pellets, unlimited hay, and a salad of mainly romaine, some cilantro, a (very) few baby spinich leaves, and one baby carrot.

My own buns have been on this diet for 6 years now and are very healthy. The fosters also do well on it.

I just wanted to comment on what has worked for me.

 

[Pipp]

Violet Crumble wrote:

If the original rabbit in question only eats pellets, and nothing else, that is okay.

Violet, I'm taking this comment out of context, your posts have been awesome and balanced, and I know you're not advocating this, but its the best sentence I could find to make my point.

Kids survive for years on not much more than chocolate bars and candy, adults live at McDonalds and smoke. Chances are greater the kids will have a lot of cavities and the adults will grow old with heart disease or other issues.

This isn't to say its going to happen. When studies say something is more likely to cause some ailment, the odds usually increase by 10 to 35% max, this isn't a 'eat/smoke and die' scenario.

My Dad spent his life on a diet of coca-cola, white bread and beef without even sniffing a fresh veggie, he never exercised and it eventually caused colon problems in his old age and it killed him -- at 94.

Genetics and environment are stronger factors.

But no health experts who have kept up with the studies (keeping in mind it takes years of study for scientists to recognize the dangers) are going to recommend these lifestyles.

A rabbit may live on a pellets-only diet, but there is a greater chance of dental disease and other issues.

In recent times health experts have been recommending a 'natural' diet for humans -- whole grains, fresh produce, etc -- rather than the processed foods that became predominant in mid-century.

Its no different for rabbits. The contents of the pellets may have nutrients, but many are artificial. They are processed.

The most predominant thing to come out of a pellets-only diet is dental disease. But not all pellets-only rabbits, not even a majority, are going to end up with it, but a larger percentage will.

Breeders may say, 'I've never had any problems', but aside from the odds, they don't often keep rabbits into old age (and often have a different concept of 'old') and they're not likely to have x-rays done on tooth roots, so their assessments may not be all that accurate.

The safest bet for everybody is a varied diet.

I'll post the same thing here I posted in the other thread. (And no, 'we' didn't split up the thread, somebody started one with the opposite question and info is being repeated, a bit confusing and time consuming, but if people prefer the subjects separated, I won't merge them and just repeat the board policy here in another post).

Thanks to all for your input.


sas

 

[Pipp]

Taken from: 

What Do You Think of a No Pellet Diet?


The policy here is to recommend variety and try our best to provide a 'natural' diet.

What people lose sight of, even with the interpretations from the HRS site, is different rabbits need different things, so the current trend of trying to micro-manage protein, calcium and other nutrients on a "one size fits all" basis is almost impossible.

You can not recommend x pellets per x pounds of body weight without taking into consideration the age, breed/physical attributes, brands and especially the rest of the diet (edited to add) and activity levels.

Growing rabbits need extra protein and calcium, yes. Pellets aren't the only source, although in a lot of cases they are out of convenience or necessity. Rabbits not being fed pellets have to eat a LOT of vegetation in terms of types and volume.

In the wild, more babies are born in the spring and it's spring grass and plants that have the higher levels of protein. (I love to see a study comparing the health of seasonal offspring, but that's another thread). Even aside from the breeding cycles, rabbits will have a rich diet in the summer and a lean one in the winter.

Even the bottom part of a hay stalk has more protein than the top part, and one field of hay can have substantially different nutrients than another. It also means that a diet of any one thing and/or from any one company, be it Oxbow or anybody else, may not be as good as a mix.

Misinterpretation leads to more problems than strict adherence to some 'rules.' Its far easier and safer to go for variety and make adjustments based on their development. If you have babies or breeds that tend towards obesity, cut back on pellets and/or switch from an alfalfa pellets to a timothy, or tinker with the hay and veggies. If have breeds (like long-haired rabbits) or thin, very active growing rabbits, they probably require more.

Large breeders have different requirements, they can't be making up big salads, finding tree bark and wildflowers, mixing up varieties of grasses and hays, etc, they need to pay more attention to the contents of their pellets and the development of their stock because pellets are the most balanced, economical and convenient food for their needs.

As rabbit science progresses, so does new information about certain diseases being caused by a misstep in commercial food or thoughts on rabbit care -- eg: for years nobody thought that rabbits needed more than nutritionally balanced pellets until dental disease became more common. Now the addition of hay is becoming the norm in rabbitries that previously fed pellets-only.

I'm sure other things will appear in time, pinpointing reasons for not-well-understood ailments like bladder sludge, stasis, etc., plaguing house rabbits, and the extent and effects of obesity.

Bottom line is that we should be more concerned with providing a varied diet. The chances that the rabbits will be getting a good balance of needed nutrients is much higher.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[Mrs. PBJ]

Good point Sas!!

For my bunnies they get 1/4 cup of pellets each and unlimited local grown hay and some Oxbow every week. One bunny can not handle salads and the other won't eat without the one that can not handle salads. so My buns are on a pellet and hay diet. With a salad once week.

Like sas has said many times what works for one bunny might not work for another.

 

[Pipp]

Kat, try advertising on Craigslist for organic landscapers who know where organic apple, pear and willow trees are and try supplementing their diet with that.

Dried berry leaves and flowers may also be good options from those sources.

Another post of mine on the other threads points out that people confuse the term 'vegetation' with 'vegetables'. Your rabbit may not be able to handle veggies like lettuce and parsley, but there are lots of other options. Buying a dehydrator is another one.

If you're not sure about what you can get, you can also order flower and plant mixes as treats from online sites, they're just expensive and you may have to convince some rabbits they're edible. (As a rule I've found if one eats it, the picky guys follow suit eventually).

How do they do with fresh grass?

Also, for those able to handle 'fresh' greens, dandelions aren't the only thing common and edible. All kinds of weeds will work. A 'weed' is only a plant that nobody wants growing in their yard.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

Pipp wrote:

A rabbit may live on a pellets-only diet, but there is a greater chance of dental disease and other issues.

In recent times health experts have been recommending a 'natural' diet for humans -- whole grains, fresh produce, etc -- rather than the processed foods that became predominant in mid-century.

Its no different for rabbits. The contents of the pellets may have nutrients, but many are artificial. They are processed.

The most predominant thing to come out of a pellets-only diet is dental disease. But not all pellets-only rabbits, not even a majority, are going to end up with it, but a larger percentage will.

Breeders may say, 'I've never had any problems', but aside from the odds, they don't often keep rabbits into old age (and often have a different concept of 'old') and they're not likely to have x-rays done on tooth roots, so their assessments may not be all that accurate.

Ihave rabbits in my barn that are six and seven years old. Have had several other older rabbits over the years. Have never had a problem with pellets causing dental disease. I know several other breeders that also keep older rabbits. We have a very large network, and if pellets were causing such problems we wouldn't be using them. Or we'd be pressuring the feed companies to change the formulas. I would think any problems that you would see would come from the few pet formula brands out there that are just horrible to feed to a rabbit. Too much protein, not enough fiber, too much corn, too much colorful stuff. I would know if my older rabbits were having tooth issues. They would go off feed, act picky, etc. The thing is to be in tune with them when it comes to *knowing* there is a problem going on that needs to be nipped in the bud. Which many breeders are. Kind of like having a sixth sense. The breeder prospective on on how old rabbits are is changing. Some think 4 years old is old, many of us think rabbits beyond six to seven years is old. I will have to check, but I think I have a doe that may possibly be pushing eight years.

Do you have anything thatsays pellets cause dental disease, other then personal experience? Justwondering because you are the first I have heard say anythingabout it. I knowseveral working with rabbit rescues that have promoted a pellet based diet, and I have never heard of any issues from them involving it. Used to know someone that worked with midwest rabbit rescue and a few others. From whatI was told they fed purina rabbit chow, and possibly oxbow at the time. They fed an alternate version of the hrs diet, that consisted of pellets as the main diet, followed by hay, and then daily veggies and vegetation as treats. Never had any problems. Not even with their older rabbits. I also know a couple that are working with some rescues out in CA that are feeding more of a *breeder based* diet that aren't seeing any issues either. In fact I have been told that the rabbits are much healthier when they cut back on the greens, and increased their pellets. All the problems they did have with them GI and dental wise went away.