Pasteurella

[Haley]

Eve, how is Layla doing? Ive been thinking of her. ray:

 

[Eve]

Hi Haley, Naturestee and JadeIcing,

Thank you so much for your messages, you are all so lovely. :hug2:

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your posts for the past few days, I have2 psych lab reports due for uni tomorrow and I haven't been on RO much this week.

Layla seems to be improving after the Baytril. She is still sneezing a bit but there is a lot less of the discharge now. I only have about 3days left of the antibiotic though, so I will speak to the vet to see if she needs more of it as she is still not feeling 100%.

Naturestee, I haven't tried mixing Layla's meds in mashed banana because I thought that wouldn't mask the taste of the meds, but it's worth a try so thank you for the suggestion .

Haley, yep Layla is the one I usually need help from family withto hold her down. I have tried taking her into a room she is unfamiliar with, but she still fusses just as much. As for howI wrap her, I don't flip her over because she would freak out, I just hold her against my body on my lap.I'll ask my vet about theinjectable antibiotic as her meds have nearly run out and she is still sick, this might be because she isn'tswallowing thefull dose each time. Thank you for the advice

On a seperate note, Rodney and Layla had a big fight yesterday and I think theyare un-bonded now. Rodney(who is usually shy, calm and very gentle) has been acting very out of character and has been mean to Layla for the past 3 days. He has been humping her,which he never used to do, andjust seems to bevery pushy around her. Iwas thinking it might besomething to do with the dominance changing because Layla is sick and she is usually the top bun.

Then yesterday, Rodney started chasing Layla and trying to bite her. He looked like he wanted to kill her,I havenever seen them fight like this before. They were both growling and chasing each other so fast. They were so intent on getting each other that I couldn't keep them seperate with just my hands, andthere was no time to reach for a towel because if I left them for a split second someone would end up getting badly hurt.

I had to cover Laylawith mybody and zipped her inside my jumper. The poor thing was so scared. Rodney, who has never bitten mein his life,sunk his teethdeep into myknee and bit my hand.Luckily both bunnies don't have any serious battle scars, which I am really surprised at because it was all so incredibly quick and vicious. So now they are in seperate cages. Layla is being very clingy to me today and Rodney is giving me the butt.He won't even accept a craisin from me.I should be giving him the butt, silly bunny.

My apologies for the very long post!

 

[Haley]

Sorry I didnt see your response!

Its pretty common for bonded pairs to fight if one is sick. I think it throws off the power balance or something. Are they any better now? It may be best just to keep them separate until she is better if they are still fighting.

How is Layla doing? Any improvement?

 

[naturestee]

I missed this too! Any updates?

 

[Eve]

Hi Haley and Naturestee!

Thank you very much for your replies

I'm glad to hear it's not uncommon for bonded pairs to fight if one is sick. I spent so much time trying to get these two to bond, at least there is hope of getting them to be friends again after Layla is better. Rodney is still growling at Layla from his seperate cage, so Iwill keep them apart for now like you said Haley.

Layla improved a fair bit last week, but yesterday she got a little worse again. She is sneezing a lot and having a bit of trouble breathing. She is still better than she was atthe start though, as she has very little of the discharge now.

My wonderful vet has ordered some flavoured Baytril for me which should arrive in a few days, so hopefully Layla will be more tolerant of taking that.

 

[naturestee]

Mmm, which flavor? I hope she likesit. I'm glad Layla is starting to feel better.Hopefully Rodney will be lovey again with her soon.

 

[Eve]

Hi Naturestee! Thank you for the message.

I'm not sure what flavour it will be. I had never heard of flavoured Baytril, so I will be pleased with whatever the vetcan get for me. Even if I still need to mix it with something,hopefully it will taste a bit better than the plain one.

I hope Rodney will be nice to Layla again soon too, they seemed toenjoy each others company so muchwhen they were briefly bonded.

 

[Haley]

Any news?

 

[Eve]

Hi Haley,

Thank you for the message.

Layla is still sick, but I am really pleased with her new medicine. It is a flavoured Baytril and only came in a few days ago. It is banana flavoured and smells delicious, I think she likes it as she doesn't dribble it out.

It is also 4 times stronger than the previous baytril, so instead of having to gulp down a whole syringe full of bayrtil plus grenadine, she only needs to take 0.25ml of the new meds. This makes it so much easier as it is only one mouthful for her to swallow.

I am hoping to see more of an improvement now as before I am sure she wasn't getting the dosage required due to her squirming, dribbling etc.

She will be on this for another two weeks and then my regular vet will be back to give her a full checkup and possibly xrays to double check her teeth.

 

[Haley]

Thats great news. I hope she gets better now that shes actually getting the meds in her system.

And are she and Rodney still having marital problems?

 

[Eve]

Thank you Haley!

Layla and Rodney are still not getting along so they are still seperated. I am supposed to be house sitting my boyfriend's parent's house for a month in the next few weeks, so if Layla is fit to go, I was thinking maybe the neutral territory may help in getting them to befriends again.

 

[ra7751]

Just wanted to add my "two cents" about pasteurella. That particular pathogen is becoming resistant to both Trimeth and Baytril even though a C&S shows sensitivity. Pasteurella is difficult to grow in a dish so sometimes you have to treat based on what doesn't grow.

If you are going to use Baytril....learn how to inject it. We have seen some rabbits show no positive response to oral antibiotics but responded to injectables. Seems to have something to do with the very acidic environment in the gut.We haveseveral buns that didn't respond to oral but did to injected Baytril...and it was injected SQ and that type of injection is easy to learn.

Zithromax on a long term basis is so far proving very effective even though it is an oral drug. There are some other drugs....procaine, amoxicillin and amikacin that are also very effective....but do carry some risks. Please do not use these drugs except under the advice and supervision of a vet asthey do carry major risks and possible long term implications...the mention of these drugs is only to open an avenue of discussion with your vet about alternatives. In fact, most vets won't even consider them.

In the US, you could ask your vet to go on the "VIN" and check out some of thesedrugs that have long been taboo forrabbits but can be effective and safewhen used at theright time and place. One of my vets at a teaching hospital has been running into an odd pathogen in some jaw abscesses. It is a form of pseudomonas that doesn't respond to much of anything. The problem with these pathogens mutating is due to the overuse and misuse of antibiotics. It's happening in the poultry industry sincemany of them give antibiotics like food. Eventually the bug develops an immunity and we get "super bugs" and that is what is happening with some of these recurring infections. It's scary.

The point in my comments is to ask pointed questions to your vet. If your doctor is like most, the idea that some of the drugs I mentioned can be used in rabbitswill entice them to research more and find out what has been happening. They have inquiring minds and want to know. Hope I have stirred some ideas out there. And one more comment....most assume that any gram negative bacteria in a rabbit is pasteurella....but think about my earlier statement about pseudomonas. It is not common in rabbits but does occur and if I remember correctly....it too is gram negative.

Randy

(Edited to make paragraphs-its easier to read that way )

 

[Eve]

Hi ra7751,

Thank you very much for all of that information.

I wasn't actually told Layla has Pasteurella, that is just what I initially thought it may be, based on the symptoms she showed when I first created this post.

After the culture tests came back, my vet told me thatthey revealed a heavy growth of gram negative bacillus, and that they are unable to find exactly what strain it is as it is something very unusual.

As for injectable Baytril,Layla is very hard to handle, so I would probably find trying to inject her pretty impossible. But I will ask my vet about it.

May I ask what the"VIN" is? I am not from the US so I am not sure if my vet has access to this.

Also, isn't Amoxicillin very dangerous for rabbits?

Thank you again for your very informative post. I will definately print a copy of it and discuss some of the things you mentioned with my vet when I see her on Tuesday.

 

[ra7751]

Hi Eve,

I would ask the vetto push to findexactly what pathogen the lab grew. Growing pasteurella is very difficult as I mentioned in my previous post. To have a heavy growth of pasteurella would be very unusual. The fact that they can't identify the pathogen concerns me....as I mentioned the new strain of pseudomonas that one of my vets has been encountering. And if Layla is hard to handle....all the more reason to inject. Use something small...like a human insulin needle. Once you learn how to do it (and it is simple), you will find that injecting has major benefits. Some meds are more effective, you are sure you have the correct dosing administered and it is less stressful to the bunny. You don't even have to pick them up.....give them a special treat and stick 'em. I can do it in less than one chew now. "VIN" is the Veterianary Information Network. It an internet based group that allow vets to access and post info about unusual issues. Exotic Vet Magazine also hosts a similar board for veterinary professionals. And amoxicillin can be used safely under the correct conditions. As I mentioned, drugs like procaine,amoxicillin and amikacin should be used only under the directsupervision of a very rabbit savvy doctor. These drugs docarry some "baggage" with them. Amikacin is very effective against jaw abscesses and anaerobic bacteria. But it tends to migrate to the kidneys so proper hydration is mandatory. I am not in any way suggesting you attempt to use these drugs.What I am doing is offering points of conversation to discuss with your vet. The doctor is in the best position to perform diagnosis and execute a treatment. The reason we are seeing these drugs being used now is a better understanding of how these drugs work and how the rabbit's body will react. Just think, a few years ago, there were no treatments offered for rabbits at all.Then it was found that drugs such as SMZ and Baytril could be used safely under the correct conditions. Now, as misuse and"shotgunning" of antibiotics is creating resistant bacteria, there is more research being done on treating small exotic mammals since they are becoming more popular. And the best vets are wanting to learn since it's the law of supply and demand...they can charge more for treating exotics since the number of vets that do treat them is limited. And maybe that isn't the best comparison since most vets do want to learn more and money is secondary to most.But that is reality.

And a thought on flavoring Baytril. It is a very nasty tasting drug...I have to take a little sample of each drug just to see..maybe not the smartest thing to do but makes me understand why the bunny won't take it. When you are "compounding" injectable Baytril...or any other meds, it might not be the best idea just to put something in it. Some of the flavoring I have seen mentioned in various places have an effect on the stability and pH of the drug and may change the way it is absorbed by the body. Many of the herbal and holistic treatments may interfere with a drug's work. There is a company called FlavorX that does have a veterinary division that provides inert flavorings for pet meds. To get the desired effect of the drug, when you are mixing it with flavoring, you would want to make sure that nothing is used that might alter the effects of the drug. Many of the older style pharmacies do have a compounding pharmacist. I have always found them to be very helpful and willing to assist with a needy animal. Hope this helps.

Randy

 

[Eve]

Hi ra7751,

Thank you for your reply.

I did ask thevetto findout exactly what strain the lab grew. However, the vet told me that further tests would be expensive and since the lab already found what antibiotics cantreat this (Trimethoprim or Baytril), that requesting further tests would be pointless.

My regular vet, who was away on maternity leave for the past few months, will be back on Tuesday, so I will ask her if a second culture test is a good idea.

As for flavouring Baytril, Layla is currently on flavoured Baytril which was specially ordered and madefor her by apharmacist, soI don't think there is anythingin it that might alter the effects of the drug.

Thank you again for your post, it has given me a lot to think about and discuss with my vet.