Oh Paaaam....

[rabbitgirl]

and we were wondering about outcrossing vs.linebreeding. Gypsy said she'd heard that outcrossing can: "bringin unwanted genetics, colors,and deformities, and someunwanted organ damage" (is the quote ok, gypsy?)but she wasn't sure, and I thought I'd heard thatinbreeding/linebreeding affects the genetic hardiness of the stock.Like, if both the parents carry a recessivegenetic defect,then it will pop up in the babies, and too many generations inbred canmake them more prone to sudden death (where did I read that?).

So we couldn't figure it out, and gypsy said we should ask you!Oh great Pam, inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks on behalf of both of us!



Rose

 

[pamnock]

Outcrossing involves breeding totally unrelatedrabbits of the same breed, where line breeding is breeding relatedrabbits together.

The primary benefit of line breeding is being able to set certaintraits within a line, producing consistant stock. Onedrawback is you are working with a smaller gene pool, so more likely topull out undesired recessive gene. Close linebreeding canresult in "inbreeding depression" with rabbits that lack vitality anddo not breed well.

To avoid inbreeding depression, new stock can be added to the line --"outcrossing". Yes, this can introduce new genes into theherd -- both desirable and undesirable.

Understanding probability is helpful in understanding how and when recessive genes show themselves.

Place 10 pennies in a container. Mark one penny so you cantell it apart from the others (put a little sticker or something onit). Mark the container "sire". The penniesrepresent genes. The penny with the sticker is an undesirablegene.

Make a "dam" container the same way (10 pennies -- 1 marked).

The containers represent a sire and dam that both carry 1 recessivegene for a congenital disease. Without looking select a pennyfrom each container and write down the results (put the pennies backafter recording). Do this 100 times, marking theresults each time. If you pick two normalpennies,the "offspring" is not a carrier of thedisease. If you pick one normal and one markedpenny,the offspring is a carrier of the disease, but does nothave the disease. If you pick 2 marked pennies, the offspringhas inherited the congenital disease : (

Fun game to play with the kids -- record the results and post them for us to see : )



Pam

 

That does soundlike a fun game I amgoing to have to play it with Cassi, she loves counting andprocess games ,

So I take it assafe to assume that either LineBreeding And out Breeding isa 50 / 50 toss either way. basically ending withthe same resulteither way.

 

[pamnock]

The decision to line breed or outcross would depend up your goals and what you are looking to accomplish.

Pam

 

[rabbitgirl]

In Pal terms--the breeding stock is so limitedthat breeders run into the vitality problems mentioned, because ofthesmaller gene pool, and also the size ofthepurebredsis decreasing. Outcrossing is a good thing in thatcase.

Thanks Pam, once again! Love the penny idea!!!

Rose

 

[pamnock]

rabbitgirl wrote:

Outcrossing is a good thing in that case.



Rose

In breeds that have an extremely limited gene pool, it is not uncommonto "crossbreed" (introducing rabbits to theirherdof a completely different breed).



Pam

 

[TinysMom]

Pam - here is another question for you.

In my litters, I have two babies I'd eventually like to matetogether. They have different mamas....but the samepapa. Should I not breed them together? Or is it okto breed them?

Peg

 

Dont quote me Pegfrom what I have beentold and I have found little tosupport it but as long as theyHave the same Fathers its ok to breedthem BUT not if they have thesame mothers ,

Im sure Pam has substantial advice either way .

Pam In the out crossing of the PalominoBreed what breed wouldbethe best to out cross with .I am curious because i can onlyreally think of 2 that wouldLend the bone density toimprove the line , and that wouldbe either a Checkard andrisk temperment orFlemish and improve temperment . . Colorwise the Fawn Flemish wouldbe the more Ideal , Where as the Checkardwould bring in an unwantedWhite and Black Gene ?

 

[Half-Pint]

I think Cremes are closer to the pals size and type wise..

 

LOL I never gave them athought , I was thinking more towardbone density .

 

[pamnock]

gypsy wrote:

Dont quote me Pegfrom what I have beentold and I have found little tosupport it but as long as theyHave the same Fathers its ok to breedthem BUT not if they have thesame mothers ,

Makes no difference either way -- just depends on what genes you areattempting to propogate.

Pam In the out crossing of the PalominoBreed what breed wouldbethe best to out cross with .I am curious because i can onlyreally think of 2 that wouldLend the bone density toimprove the line , and that wouldbe either a Checkard andrisk temperment orFlemish and improve temperment . . Colorwise the Fawn Flemish wouldbe the more Ideal , Where as the Checkardwould bring in an unwantedWhite and Black Gene ? Neither the Flemish orCheckered are suitable in this case due to the completely differentbody type. (If you are breeding for showtype). New Zealand Whites are your bestchoice. Many New ZealandWhitesare actually agouti genotype, so you'll probably getchestnut agoutis with the firstbreeding.Inbreeding selectively will helpto keep the non-extension gene that you'll need for the fawncolor.Same fur type, so you won't have toworry about correcting thecoat.When breeding for meat type and production, it's not unusual tocross Flemish into the line.

 

[pamnock]

A drawback with the Cremes is that it can bedifficult to find excellent quality stock. New Zealand Whitesare more prevelant in most areas and the most commonly used breed forimproving type on commercial animals.

Pam

 

[rabbitgirl]

It is more than likely that Bub has some Flemish in his mother's line. Pals in this area are bred for meat.

Also, much as I love him and think he is quite handsome....I suspect hehas inherited his daddy's weak shoulders, show-wise. So I'll have to becareful when finding him a mate, and try to balance that trait.

Rose

 

Thanks Pam Iknew you would have the rightanswer and You answered adew questions I had concerning the Pal/Flemish cross , That I know is goingon elsewhere ,

How would one go aboutcarefully selecting the right Buck tothe right Doe on the inbreeding, what would one look forto keep the right Extension ?

I think I have to bang my head on thetable a couple times Imnot sure I wordedthat right.

 

[Half-Pint]

Wouldnt be hard for us we have two cremes =)

 

[pamnock]

gypsy wrote:

Thanks Pam I knewyou would have the right answerand You answered a dewquestions I had concerning the Pal/Flemish cross , That I know is goingon elsewhere ,

How would one go aboutcarefully selecting the right Buck tothe right Doe on the inbreeding, what would one look forto keep the right Extension ?

I think I have to bang my head on thetable a couple times Imnot sure I wordedthat right.

There are some NZ Whites that may carry the non-extension gene, so itwould be possible to get fawns (goldens)in the 1st generation- however, you won't be able to tell by looking at a NZ White whetheror not it carries non-extension.

When breeding a NZ to a Pal -- *All* the resulting offspring willinherit a copy of the non-extension gene from the Pal parent.Breeding these back to Pals will produce the desired color (as well asother colors depending on what was inherited from the NZ).

Pam

 

[rabbitgirl]

gypsy wrote:

How would one go aboutcarefully selecting the right Buck tothe right Doe on the inbreeding, what would one look forto keep the right Extension ?

Oh yes, I want to know this too! Gypsy, remember my reasoning with theHollands breeding, and the result??Apparently my logic wasfaulty somehow. Only, I'll add--what would you look for if doing anoutcross as opposed to inbreeding, or doesn't it make a difference?

Genetics is fascinating, but it confuses the heck out of me.

Rose


P.S. whoops, Pam, we were typing at the same time!

 

[pamnock]

Half-Pint wrote:

Wouldnt be hard for us we have two cremes =)

Wouldn't mess with introducing the recessive silvering gene into theline -- it'll come back to haunt you for generations and it'll takeyears of selective breeding to get that gene back out of the gene pool(can take 20 years or more). I would highly recommend againstintroducing that gene into the Pal genetic pool.

Pam

 

ok Rose hasthe Golden and Ihavethe Lynx whatwould the outcome be for that ,Rose and I have discussed this beforeand neither of us knew theanswer .

 

[rabbitgirl]

pamnock wrote:

Half-Pint wrote:

Wouldnt behard for us we have two cremes =)

Wouldn't mess with introducing the recessive silvering gene into theline -- it'll come back to haunt you for generations and it'll takeyears of selective breeding to get that gene back out of the gene pool(can take 20 years or more).

Pam

:shock::shock::shock:

Wow! That's a long time!!!

Ok, here's another couple--sorry we're keeping you so busy tonight, Pam!

1. A healthy Pal of either sex with good type and density, but showingslight smut--to breed or not to breed? Will all babies carry it or onlysome? Is that a bad thing to perpetuate or an acceptable risk?

2. Have been noticing that the Pals that showed smut actually lost most of it in first molt. Is this common?

3. Only the females have smut as far as I know--2 out of 9. What genecauses it, and which parent are they getting it from? Is there any wayto tell? Both mother and father had clear golden coats.

Thanks!!

Rose