Nybody Tried HEALx for Abscesses?

[Pipp]

HEALx products include "nutritional supplements and wound healing and skin care topicals."

Here's a link, but warning, *GRAPHIC PHOTOS*.

http://www.exoticdvm.com/mammal


sas :expressionless

 

[mistyjr]

Those photo's are very Graphic..:baghead

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

radical surgery-abscess removal-,,obviously didnot involve the teeth and gums.//.so this stuff is post op..//from what i can remember about abscesses,,the good tissue(surrounding tissue) must be protected also-,post op.//.not putting this product down,,just trying to figure out what must be the ingredients,..they did not mention oral antibiotics,??healx,,i will take another look.interesting..sincerely james waller

 

[tonyshuman]

It may be a good way to keep the wound clean and allow the abscess to heal from the inside out after a surgery. Often, after surgery, the pocket that is where the abscess was closes up at the top, trapping stuff inside the same pocket, which often leads to the abscess re-forming because some of the stuff trapped in there contains bacteria. It's very difficult to keep an open abscess totally clean, so it's preferred that the healing starts deep in the pocket.

Think of the wound like a cup. If the tissue on the top heals over the top of the cup, stuff gets trapped deep inside, and it often gets infected again. If you get the tissue at the bottom of the cup to heal first, and then grow up the cup to the rim, you won't have the pocket-forming effect that traps bacteria in the wound.

Part of the reason that the top part usually heals faster is that it is usually skin, which grows at a much faster rate than muscle and other deeper tissues.

In the picture with the bone infection, the bone had to go through some of the healing/dying process (so that the doctors would know which parts of the bone they had to remove) before the wound could close over it.

This material seems to help keep the wound sterile and allow the deeper tissues to heal before the outer tissues.

HOWEVER, it worries me that they won't tell you what the ingredients are exactly. They give a general idea of what they are, but I'd like to see the actual compounds.

"INGREDIENTS
A patented quaternary ammonium product suspended in aloe vera distillate for topical pain relief with the addition of a patented monoglyceride of a C12 fatty acid for nontoxic antimicrobial activity"

Some quaternary ammonium molecules can be very damaging to tissue because they are reactive and cytotoxic. Also, I don't know much about using fatty acids as antimicrobials, but I have read that they can help against gram-positive bacteria. I would like to know what the actual compounds used are and how they work to determine if it's good.

Also important, Aloe Vera is on the toxic plant list for rabbits, which makes me worry about the product a lot!

I think the best way to treat an abscess, unless it is in a place where it can cause some damage (impinging on an airway) and/or is very encapsulated (ie it is small and well-defined, not spreading), is a treatment with strong systemic antibiotics. Opening a wound for an abscess isn't really recommended unless it's necessary for other reasons. I think if your bunny had a very serious abscess that had to be opened, it would be good to discuss this product with your vet, but make sure you ask about aloe vera toxicity!

There are other products out there to help with wound healing, like hydrogels, that do similar things, have all their ingredients listed so you can check their toxicity, and don't contain aloe.

edit: Sorry if this seemed too basic or condescending! I didn't recognize your new profile pic, Pipp, so I thought this was a topic by someone new, perhaps with less rabbit abscess experience.

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

been there done that,,yes,-sweeden(rabbit)went through radical surgery for abscess removal-(left lowecheek/no gums-teeth-involved-)-,,the scary part for me was the flushing of the wound with betadine,and ointment--,and praying the incision closed/shrank properly without bacteria.-(puss)-icky-poo..//.very well written claire--you think maybe this product may then replace the betadine or in conjunction with it--its all about healing/pain relief,,being healthy...sincerely james waller:wave::rose:inkbouce::biggrin2::bunnydance:i love this little guy,

 

[pamnock]

I wouldn't be at all concerned about an Aloe Vera additive in the Healx. Aloe Vera is a common feed additive for animals - in fact, one of the feeds we used years ago contained an Aloe Vera additive.

 

[Pipp]

tonyshuman wrote:

Also important, Aloe Vera is on the toxic plant list for rabbits, which makes me worry about the product a lot!

Whoa, I don't think this is relevant. Rabbits can't ingest a lot of things that won't hurt them topically -- or even systemically -- most notably Penicillin, etc, but they are lifesavers in other forms.

A lot of tree branches are safe if they're eaten dried, but not if they're eaten fresh -- the sap can be harmful. Some things (like apple seeds) are technically toxic but only in large amounts, whereas small amounts are therapeutic.

I would NOT think a line of products developed by Vets for rabbits and other small animals would be harmful because it contains Aloe Vera.

I do question whether after the loooong time it takes for wounds to heal using this product if systemic antibiotics and simple betadine sqirts might not be equally or more effective. But if its easy to apply, no problem if it's licked off (oral ingestion) and people feel comfortable with it, could have value.

BTW, a search reveals a Avian (bird) website citing a Russian study as follows:

In Russia, tests were conducted on rabbits to see if Aloe increased the body's ability to handle harmful substances. Of the rabbits given Aloe Vera for thirty days, a third of them were able to survive deadly doses of Strychnine. Whereas, no rabbits without the Aloe Vera were able to survive. This could indicate that the natural protective functions of the body are stimulated by this remedy.


sas :expressionless

 

[tonyshuman]

Well, I wonder why it's on the toxic plant lists then? I was just going by those. I agree, a vet wouldn't make something for bunnies with toxic ingredients for them, so the incongruity of the toxic plant list with the ingredient list is confusing.

 

[ra7751]

Sounds like an elixir....if you have it, this product will cure it. A little like the "recipe" on The Waltons. I just don't see how one product can do many things so well. It's all about money. And I don't think I would spend my money on this particular product. I prefer known to be effective antibiotics and plain old sterile water if I flush an injury.

 

[Pipp]

tonyshuman wrote:

Well, I wonder why it's on the toxic plant lists then? . . . the incongruity of the toxic plant list with the ingredient list is confusing.

The same reason Amoxicillin and Penicillin are considered deadly in one form and life-saving in another form. Limiting apple seeds, drying tree branches, etc, all qualify use. There's a vast difference between rubbing alcohol and good scotch.

There really shouldn't be blanket or black and white statements, there is so much grey area.

I've asked Autumn to try and make a more comprehensive safe/toxic list and that we all make a huge point of researching and explaining WHY and qualify things are on these lists -- and indeed, in all aspects of rabbit care.

I hope that will help in the long run because it really can be confusing.

PS: On the other side of the scale, Aloe Vera can not be on the 'safe' list, either, because there are instances where rabbits eating the houseplants have died. Just to make sure everybody knows we're talking 'grey area', not safe!

sas :expressionless

 

[tonyshuman]

Quite true, it's dangerous to think in black/white dichotomies because so few things actually are that way. I would like to see some more concrete evidence on the safety of the aloe vera. All we have are tons of lists that designate it as "poisonous" without specifying how much, what part (leaf, juice?), and if every rabbit will be affected.

Perhaps it's from the use of aloe vera as a laxative? We all know how sensitive rabbits are to diarrhea and that it can quickly be toxic. If eating aloe vera causes diarrhea, that could be a reason why it's on the poisonous list.
http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/herbs_aloe_vera.html

 

[Pipp]

Another small caution -- plants effect different species different ways. Human lists, other lists for cats and dogs, etc, aren't always very relevant.

However, as most things are tested on rabbits in labs (poor bunnies), rabbit-specific results can be found out there even if they're destined for human purposes, although they're really hard to interpret (at least for non-science savvy types like me!)

I'd like to also collect as much anecdotal evidence as possible -- ask people all over the planet if their rabbits have ingested Aloe Vera and if so, what were the circumstances, amounts and results.

I did a quick search that showed a few people whose rabbits ate the plants with no effects along with one case where the rabbit died within hours.

Was it the variety of aloe vera that made the difference? The amount or parts of the plants ingested? Or even rabbit sensitivities or genetics? Hard to research but worth an effort.


sas :thanks:

 

[kirbyultra]

I believe healx was applied recently on some minor cuts and wounds on the face of one of our rescues. To my knowledge, healx is a common topical application... But don't quote me on that...

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

pamnock wrote:

I wouldn't be at all concerned about an Aloe Vera additive in the Healx. Aloe Vera is a common feed additive for animals - in fact, one of the feeds we used years ago contained an Aloe Vera additive.

i have seen gallon jugs ofsome stuff with aloe vera,,in drug stores,,,eeeewww--do people really drink that stuff.--a very versitille plant....hey,,i know--anyone old enough to have ever heardof dmso,??,,its a cleaner for a garage floor---but ,,yep peopledrank it too,and putit on their wounds---james waller:bunnydance::wave:inkbouce:

 

[tonyshuman]

Pipp wrote:

However, as most things are tested on rabbits in labs (poor bunnies), rabbit-specific results can be found out there even if they're destined for human purposes, although they're really hard to interpret (at least for non-science savvy types like me!)


sas

I actually looked through pubmed, a searchable directory of most biomedical/health research for studies on aloe vera toxicity in rabbits, and could not find any. That's often the case for compounds that have been used by people for a very long time.

james waller wrote:

i have seen gallon jugs ofsome stuff with aloe vera,,in drug stores,,,eeeewww--do people really drink that stuff.--a very versitille plant....hey,,i know--anyone old enough to have ever heardof dmso,??,,its a cleaner for a garage floor---but ,,yep peopledrank it too,and putit on their wounds---james waller:bunnydance::wave:inkbouce:

Aloe vera is drunk as a laxative. I believe this is a folk remedy of the ancient inhabitants of the North American desert areas.

DMSO is a common compound used in pharmaceuticals and also as an industrial solvent. Some drugs are highly insoluble in water, and require DMSO to be solublized. DMSO penetrates the skin very rapidly and carries any compounds that are dissolved in it along. This makes it a useful ingredient in getting drugs that are not soluble in water into the system. It is commonly used in sub-cutaneously injected drug formulations.

DMSO does not appear to have any toxic side effects itself, but it can contain trace amounts of highly toxic materials, particularly in the earlier days of its use. At that time, we weren't able to detect very low concentrations of dangerous compounds that were dissolved in it, present probably as a result of how the drug was manufactured or isolated, and now we can.

Pharmaceutical-grade DMSO does not appear to have adverse effects other than making your breath, urine, and skin smell a bit funny. It's eliminated in the urine, mostly as unchanged compound, some as oxidized compound, both of which are not very reactive. It also has a strange taste, and if it touches your skin, you can very quickly taste it, which makes people very worried.

The thing is that it appears to go through the body quickly without doing much other than solubilizing insoluble things. Some things are supposed to be insoluble in the body, and some things are not--such as blood clots, so it can have positive effects and negative effects.

In the lab, we worry about DMSO because it can dissolve our gloves and carry whatever is dissolved in it into our body. We work with compounds of unknown toxicity, and you wouldn't want to eat the components of a lab glove. The things dissolved in DMSO are what you need to worry about, not the DMSO itself.